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Henne vs Matt Ryan; A QB who's been impaired by his team vs one helped by it.

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by ToddsPhins, May 11, 2011.

  1. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    We can remove one of those losses from the 100+ column if we don't account for Henne's 17 yards vs Cleveland. Our backs rushed for 97 yards that game with a long run of 9 yards.

    I think the surprise in his stats comes back to the playcalling and its conservatism once we had a lead, because from my eyes, I saw 2 different offenses out there.
    IMO the lower YPA is indicative of the conservatism; I also think we have to account for the lack of TDs that were thrown on those nice ball controlled drives where Henning gave Henne few opportunities inside the 35.

    We could also consider stuff like the first half of the Lions game (when the ground game was solid prior to injury) when Henne was on fire; after the Oline shuffled and ground game collapsed, Henne had problems (not to mention receivers falling down or not finishing routes). If the defense doesn't give up points with 5 minutes left to play and the ground game can finish the game rather than forcing Chad to throw into a 20MPH wind with no #1 TE and no starting flanker, then we win the game and Chad's stats look great.

    There was the INT in the Packer game where Brandon fell down, and the missed TD by Brandon b/c he didn't get his foot in bounds.

    There's the dropped wheel route by Cobbs vs Cincy that leads to an INT 2 plays later, and then you have Henning giving Chad few chances to throw a TD inside FG range when we did move the ball.

    The 2nd Jets game saw 28 carries for 94 yards if you take away Henne's 7 on scrambles.

    If we remove the Jets, Browns, and 2nd half of the Lions game (since the ground game didn't do anything during these 10 quarters), I think we see an entirely different outcome.

    I believe there were highs and lows that balanced themselves out, leading to the 73 rating. If you remove Henning's conservatism and take away the ground game's inability to close out a win, then I think you're left with mostly the highs when we rushed for 100+.

    IMO the best way to do it would be to break down Henne's performance on a drive by drive (or quarter by quarter) basis when the ground game is doing well verses sucking arse. I think we'd see a QB with a rating near 100 when the ground game is contributing verse a 50ish rating when the ground game was a hindrance.

    His success and lack there of appeared no different to me than when Ryan, Flacco, Freeman, and Sanchez were in the same situation. Go back and watch Freeman vs the Steelers. He looks pedestrian compared to Henne when watching their performances vs the same great defense. All these young guys looked mediocre when their ground game stalled. The tape doesn't lie.
     
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  2. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    complete stats: 100 yds gained rushing: 249 atts, 144 comp, 1558 yds, 8 td 8 int
    <100 yds rushing: 241 atts, 157 comp, 1743 yds 7 td 11 int
     
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  3. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    Good points Todd, but I was thinking too, we could probably do that with several other QBs as well. I just remember when KB21 posted the stats for Ryan when the Falcons rushed for 100 or did not, and they differences were much more extreme. I don't have them in front of me or remember them exactly, just that there was a lot more difference.
    Still the bottom line is W-L column and very simply we were 6-2 rushing for 100 or more, and 1-7 when not. The two 100 rushing losses were Cleveland and Detriot, and as you pointed out we only broke 100 due to Henne's scramble yards and R&R gained 97 between them. IMO, scramble yards should count though for the purposes of this comparison, because if we had a mobile QB out there like Vick, and he gained 50 yards scrambling, we would want to add that to the totals or I would.
     
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  4. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    Also, looking at the individual QB ratings for the games were we did gain less than 100 yds and his efforts were good enough IMO to win in all but 2 of them, with just a little more help from the ground game, and/or STs, or as with 2nd Buffalo game, just Carpenter going 2 of 4, rather than 0 of 4. Even make 1 and send it to OT.
    Jets1: 91.4
    Pats1: 81.6 (We were in this game before 2nd half STs collapse)
    Pitts: 82.8 (Did beat the Steelers, but lost to the officials)
    Balt: 47.5 (lack of any ground game was too much for Henne to overcome here. Balt is a very good D too.)
    Tenn: 91.4 (our 1 win when rushing for <100 yds)
    Buff2: 86.9 (Carpenter goes 0 of 4, missing from 48, 61, 53 and 48 yards. Granted, none are chip shots)
    Pats2: 25.8 (Comes out of the game early in a game that could best be described as an overall team collapse)
     
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  5. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Like I said, good not great. You don't need 12 probowls and a HOF left tackle. 3 PB's is a good, not great Left Tackle.
     
  6. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    So he was bad or a little worse depending on if we rushed for 100 yards or not (you pick which is which :D)
     
  7. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    Chad Henne in 2009 when we rushed for 100 yds and when we didn't

    First off, the team's record overall was 5-6 when rushing for 100 and 2-3 when we didn't

    Henne when we rushed for 100: 182 comp, 303 atts, 1969 yds, 7 td, 11 int 60% comp 6.5 ypa, 2.3 TD% 3.6 INT% QB rating 71.78

    when <100: 92 comp, 148 atts, 909 yds 5 td, 3 int 62% comp, 6.1 ypa, 3.8 TD% 2.0 INT% QB rating 82.29

    Again, take from it what you will and please feel free to correct me if I am wrong on any part of it.
     
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  8. xphinfanx

    xphinfanx Stay strong my friends.

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    Pats put the embarrassment on us bad last season.
     
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  9. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    IMO those games came down to us being severely out coached.
     
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  10. PhinsPhan23

    PhinsPhan23 New Member

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    While I believe you have to place some blame on Henning and in some games a lack of running game, I don't think it's fair to just obsolve Henne of any faults when comparing him to a Flacco or Ryan. I saw Flacco make some really great throws in games where their running game was suspect (ie against Pittsburgh, 30 yard TD in the back of the endzone to Boldin). I saw Ryan make some really nice throws when Turner was struggling to get the ground game going. I VERY rarerly saw Henne make a crisp throw (especially inside the opponent's territory) where I could say this guy has the potential to be special. Henning is certainly at fault here and Sparano may be as well (telling Henne to be overly safe with the ball once we are in FG range). Regardless, for Henne to be that special, franchise QB, at some point he has to say F'it and just start taking chances. Too often he checked down and I think based on the amount of check downs he attempted, teams started expecting it and picking him off (ask Rob Ninkovich in our game against NE).

    In the end, it's really hard to tell how good (or bad) Henne can be until they take the training wheels off. Hopefully Dabol's offense will change this team's philosophy a bit. Maybe Daboll can sway Tony and make him believe that taking shots is the right move sometimes.
     
  11. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    I'm actually not absolving Henne of any faults. There's a difference between making excuses for a player and pointing out legitimate areas of the game that greatly affected his play.

    When I went back and watched Matt Ryan, he was faced with far less unfavorable circumstances, and those fewer unfavorable circumstances were also to a lesser degree of severity. There were also 2 polar opposite styles of running an offense, with Ryan being the benefactor of an aggressive OC who gave him the opportunities to make plays inside his opponent's territory.

    Atlanta was a team that, on 4th & 2 at their opponent's 35, would go for it and then subsequently give Ryan multiple shots at the endzone. Miami on the other hand would get to the 35, sub in the wildcat for a loss of 2 yards, run for 4 yards on the next 2 plays, and then happily kick a field goal with a HC jumping for joy on the sideline b/c the offense didn't make any mistakes to jeopardize his precious FG. You didn't see Henne make many crisp throws because you didn't see Henne having many opportunities to do so.

    Teams were "expecting" our routes because Henning's offense & playcalling were predictable. After constantly & predictably using 5 step drops and max protection, it's not difficult for a trained professional to pick up on this tendency and make proper adjustments. Defenses talked about this predictability all season. There are only so many routes you can run from a 5 step drop, and with sometimes 1-2 WRs running those routes, a QB faces a difficult chance to succeed. This difficulty becomes magnified when an abominable ground game frequently leaves you in this situation in 2nd & long and 3rd & long when defenses are now able to anticipate the pass.


    Yes, Flacco, Ryan, and all those guys made some nice throws, as did Henne; I'm not taking away from that, but they also made some horrendous throws right to defenders that would've been picked off and returned for 6 multiple times if they had Miami's horrid luck last year. I watched Ryan dump off a massive amount of times to backs and TEs in a handful of his games; only difference is his outlets were effective at moving the chains and picking up chunk yardage. Ditto for Flacco.

    They also had receivers making some big time catches that I rarely to never saw from our group. While Roddy White is making an acrobatic diving catch in the endzone for 6 or snaring a one-handed stop and go, Marshall is busy not getting his other foot in bounds for a TD, Wallace is dropping a TD (or running out of bounds-take your pick), Hartline is botching a deep pass that hits him in the chest, Cobbs is letting a perfect wheel route pass slip right through his bread basket, Shuler & Bess are stopping routes giving defenders a clear shot at the ball, Hartline-Bess-Marshall are falling down so defenders can slip in for the pick, Marshall is batting balls up into safeties hands, and Fasano is dropping 2-3 critical, easy passes in a game that kills important drives.

    While Ryan's receivers are set up in a 4-5 WR set in passing situations with 5 or 6 staying in to block, Henne is typically busy surveying the field with only 1-3 receivers on routes. And you wonder why there are check downs? lol. When a defense is prepared for the pass and the offense has only 2-3 guys available to throw to, there's gonna be some problems with guys being covered up. Despite this, Henne's stats indicate he checked down less than Ryan, Flacco, Freeman, Sanchez, or Bradford.

    Roughly 40% of Henne's passes went to backs & TEs.
    I'm not sure where all these "so called" checkdowns are coming from when his reception ranking goes:
    1. WR 2. WR 3. WR 4. TE 5. RB.

    Flacco, Freeman, Ryan, and Sanchez on the other hand had roughly 50% of their passes go to backs & TEs (some had even higher).
    Flacco's #2 receiver was a back; his #4 was a TE.
    Freeman's #1 receiver was a TE; #3 was a back.
    Sanchez's #1 receiver was a TE; #4 was a back.
    Ryan's #2 receiver was a TE; #3 was a back.

    We all witnessed Thigpen reamed out for taking a shot downfield to Marshall. If a coach has prepared you to play a certain conservative way, then you play the way he wants, especially if it's your 2nd year starting. If the coach's conservative philosophy is causing the team to lose games, then hopefully the coach will recognize it and make proper adjustments; that's why he's the coach and the QB is the player. It's not up to the young, developing QB to decide how the team should play and subsequently take matters into his own hands while being openly insubordinate to his coach in front of the entire team. Showing your boss up in front of everyone is a great way to get sh!t-canned.


    Again, I'm not taking away from Flacco, Ryan, or any other young QB; however, after going back and watching these guys, I do believe the distance between Henne and them is significantly less than stats suggest.
    For instance, when you watch Freeman verse the Steelers (since they were a common opponent), there isn't an unbiased person alive who would take Josh over Henne based on their respective performances against that outstanding defense. There are numerous games against common opponents where the other young QBs' performances were either equal or inferior to Henne's (and that's speaking objectively).
     
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  12. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    so much for the checkdown theory...The reason why he gets slack, its an illusion, his backs cant do anything with the ball so people get pissed when he drops it down to them expecting a different result, shame On Henne for expecting a different result and trusting his 2 top 5 running backs...
     
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