Game 11..Raiders..Rewind thoughts..Henne analysis..

I agree w/ you on all except the Baltimore pick but either way 8-10 INTs for a 2nd year guy is nothing to be ashamed of. To be fair, ALL QBs suffer bad break INT's, Eli had a bunch of them this year as well. What normally balances things out is that most QBs also have a lot of dropped INTs, i.e. Miami dropped 5 at NYJ this year, and about 30 total for the season. Not only did Henne have more than his fair share of bad luck picks, he also had less than his fair share of dropped INT's.

Another thing is that I don't see Henne making the same mistakes over and over. I see bad throws & bad decisions, but I don't see the same throws being intercepted. He needs major help w/ keeping his eyes down field while avoiding the rush, help finding passing lanes on shorter throws, needs to trust Marshall more, and help looking defenders off so there's a lot of development. I just think he's done a good job w/ his decision making, especially considering his experience level. 19 INTs suggest bad decision making but the tape says otherwise IMO.

 

I can assure you that it's not easy to accurately throw a 50 yd pass while there is a 320 LB man in your face. Sure it was a bad throw, no one disputes that. But Hartline could have made a play for his QB and prevented the INT. You complain about Henne's downfield accuracy but why not put some responsibility on the WRs to make plays. Hartline is too slow to reach the rainbow throws, and he lacks the ball skills to get to the 50/50 balls, either it's a perfect throw or bust w/ him. Football is a team sport, cant pin it all on one guy.

 

Err, well, uhm, see I've watched Greg Maddux, who was renowned for his control through up a duck from time to time, Henne misfired he is not some precious flower who does everything perfectly and people just hate him for no reason at all..waaahhh

Ahhem, anywho, just a bad throw, they happen, no need to call it anything other then what it was.

 

Maddux the baseball player? Huh? And that pass was anything but a duck, it was on a line. Like I said before, not being able to follow through on your throw can cause a pass to wind up shorter than you intended. Henne's never underthrown a deep ball like that before so IMO he was affected by the pressure. Maybe he was, maybe he wasn't. Either way, Hartline needs to come back for the ball and McQuistan needs to do a better job w/ protection. Team game.

 

We had a pretty intense discussion during and after the game in which this play occurred. So, I won't get that heated again. Watching that play so many times now, it's a travesty that Brian Hartline could take any blame. He tried to make a play back towards it but it was so poorly thrown it wasn't possible to break it up--without causing a penalty. Unless Brian Hartline attacks Haden like a Safety would that ball isn't broken up.

The problem is this. Chad Henne should have recognized it far earlier than he did. By the time, the ball came out, Brian Hartline was 38 (not 50) yards downfield and had 3-4 steps on Haden. It's a difficult throw from the opposite hash, but it's a throw that QB's who are successful in the league make. At the very least it's a throw they allow their WR's to make a play on. The ball had poor trajectory and it came out late. He should have recognized much earlier the coverage, because as you see in the replay, Hartline had him beat well early in the play.

That INT is completely on Chad Henne. He was an unfortunate person in many during the year, but how one can chalk that up on the blame of the other players is besides me. It was a good play call. The protection was there early. The WR beat his man early. The ball came out late and it came out poorly.

 

exactly. effort being the operative word..... and when you're paid tons of money, great effort is what should be given.

I understand running just fine in this sense, which is why I KNOW that play could be made without a ridiculous degree of difficulty. I've seen it made enough times and I've made it enough times to know that the EFFORT ITSELF is not a monumental accomplishment. He simply failed to make a legitimate effort, and there's nothing you can say to change that.

 

so what you're saying is receivers don't need to step from time to time and make plays for their QBs?

The 50-50 jump ball in the endzone that he let Haden outplay him on? It doesn't matter if Brian couldn't make a play on that either? I guess if a pass isn't dropped smack in a receiver's bucket that he loses all accountability.

How about the dropped flea-flicker? Does that one count?

Brian didn't have that many downfield opportunities, so it's not very reassuring when you convert less than you make. I guarantee you that even 5'9 Jacoby Ford doesn't go 0-3 on those opportunities.

 

Your definition of tried and my definition of tried are entirely different. My definition of tried is measured against receivers who can at least break up that pass on a bad day. You act like it defies the laws of physics to recognize a pass coming from 50 yards away and subsequently making quick and deliberate adjustments to it.

You plant your back foot and drive aggressively back on the ball. It's that SIMPLE. At no point in Hartline's slowing down process did he do that, and I assure you it would not have snapped his ankle if he did. You can watch the film all you like and say the play isn't possible; however, if I can make that play and adjustment, then an NFL receiver damn sure better be able to.

 

Hello!!!! That's the whole point. Hartline absolutely should've taken a penalty if necessary. It was 1st and 10, worst case it's 1st and 20-25 but we still have the ball. As a WR, once you see that you cant get to the ball, job 1 becomes preventing the defender from catching it. So says every coach I ever played for/worked with. And you're wrong, Hartline never moved one inch towards the ball.

Poorly underthrown ball, OK. That's been established. Hartline realized this at about the 50 yd line and what'd he do? He ran 10 yards in the wrong direction. Haden has his eyes back looking for the ball and no idea where Hartline is. If Hartline had better body control he couldve stopped and run through Haden on his way back to the ball, perhaps drawing a flag in the process. Instead he just keeps going backwards, to where? Who knows. If you cant see that I don't know what to tell you.

I guess we just have different opinions on player responsibility. If I made a play like the one Hartline made, I'd be running gassers for not breaking up the pass.

 

That blows with a capital B. That a head coach wouldn't have final authority on everything just isn't the way the staff structure should be set up IMO. Ok, Nolan having autonomy with the D, I can see, Tony being more of an offense side of the ball coach during his career. But, for special packages, Tony should have had it set up so he could overrule Henning on things like use of the WC or anything similar.

 

Right. It's not rocket science.
1. You recognize the under throw.
2. You come back to the ball.
3. Don't take all f'n day to do 1 & 2.
4. Make a play on the ball like you own it.

 

I like Henne a lot, but that INT, I can't blame Hartline at all. The throw came out late, sort of like that Gradkowski pass that Clemons picked off at the goal line, in regards to the timing of the throw. Dan Dierdorf usually is very pro Henne in his comments, and even he was saying the ball was under thrown.

Everyone is free to form their own judgement of it however.

[video]http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d81ca54e7/Haden-INT[/video]

EDIT: I've watched this play over a few more times, and to me, as we see Hartline completely stop to wait on the ball, it appears that he doesn't even see Haden coming into the picture. He sure acts like he is out there with no one close anyway. So, while it was a bad pass, it seems surprising Hartline would not see Haden about to flash in front of him in enough time to interfere with his effort to intercept. As for the DL that the RG is blocking, it appears to me he is not obstructing Henne's vision or follow through to any degree that it could be blamed for the under throw. As I watch it again, it appears Hartline just wasn't very physical on the play and Haden overpowered him, playing the ball like he was the WR. So, Hartline shares in some of the blame for his lack of effort to break up the pass, interfere with Haden, whatever. Still, Henne was pretty late getting rid of the ball and it was very underthrown.

 

I don't think Tony is a wuss. I think he was hamstrung in the way the staff was set up, something he apparently agreed to, in the desire to get his first head coaching job. I can imagine Bill in his meeting with Tony saying he wanted Henning as the OC, with the authority to run the offense and call the plays. Sure, Tony could have said no, but Henning had a long track record as an OC and Tony trusted Bill's judgement.

 

Peyton is a different class as is most elite QB's in this league (ala Brady, Brees, Rodgers, etc.). Peyton strives for single digit INT's and that includes hail mary's and tipped balls. Obviously he doesn't get there often (ok once in his career), but Peyton has probably averaged 100 more balls thrown in his career than Henne threw last year. He was over 18 Int's 3 times in his 13 year career. But that's besides the point, this is Peyton we are talking about. In the end, I think Henne had some bad luck last year, but my point was that he also had a lot of INT's that were on him. I pointed out 9 that you couldn't even question and I'm sure 4 or 5 more were debatable.

Your point on year 2 starter and having 19 int's is valid. I don't think it's overly terrible based on the system that was in place and how bad the running game was. I'm not saying I don't want to give Henne one more shot (especially since we didn't draft a guy) with a new system and hopefully a better running game. You never know, he may grow alot in his 3rd year starting.

I also know that I was throwing my remote across the room time and time again last year watching Henne make a poor decision or throw that had me dumbfounded. To say there was only 3 or 4 of those the whole year is wrong. Looking at the Haden int specifically. Hartline had him burned and if Henne puts 10 more yards under that ball, it's a TD. Instead he throws it WAY TOO short and it's an easy int. This is what this guy was supposed to be. Big arm, and when WR's get past defenders, he can get the ball to them on a rope. We didn't see that last year and I know a lot of that was due to the unimaginable amount of curl routes and out routes that Henning had Marshall running.

To sum up, I'm behind the Henne support to a degree only to give him another shot. I'm not behind the support of him actually performing well last year b/c from what I remember, he wasn't a very good QB even being only in his 3rd yr.

 

If there's one thing that Henne does too much of, its getting rid of the ball too late. I've seen him do that way to many times. The most I'd seen him do it in a game was against NE where he threw the 2 picks to Rob Ninkovich.

 

In all fairness, Henne's underthrow to Hart vs Cleveland wasn't the norm. He typically slightly overthrew his man, which IMO comes back to the difference between having a Ginn (with the long speed to run under a pass) and a Hartline-Curtis-Marshall (who don't).

The first long pass of the Jets game to Hartline is a completion to Edmund Gates..... and possibly likewise for the one to Curtis. Occasional under throws wouldn't appear so highlighted if we actually HAD a 2010 receiver who could catch up to or run under the slight overthrows. It's frustrating watching a 54 yard pass graze off the finger tips of a 4.5 receiver when you know if he were a tad faster it becomes a massive completion, likely for 6.

 

That's probably my biggest gripe, too. I'm guessing that's partially due to tight coverage (or a mindset that developed due to excessive tight coverage and/or Henning-Sparano beating the dont make mistakes drum into his ear). I would think it's also due to inexperience in recognizing different coverages that caused either a delay or even apprehension in his decision making. At times, it seemed like he was doing more conscious thinking than playing.

I'm hoping that both an offseason of film study and the addition of Daboll (instead of Henning) will help improve this aspect and help further slow the game down for him.

 

No offense to you here Todd, but I'd be willing to wager a whole lot of money that you weren't able to break up that play. To compare your ability to that of a guy on an NFL team, isn't going to make me believe it's on Hartline.

I guess this is my issue. It was a bad pass. It was poor recognition by Henne. Yet, we're talking about what Brian Hartline should have done. Does anyone else see the issue here? You've done some great analysis to help us understand some of the problems that shouldn't have been attributed to Henne that were. This isn't one of him. That is on him. Henne and Sparano even said so in the post-game presser as I remember. You all are the only one's defending that is wasn't his fault, or more or less, trying to shine light on the blame of Brian Hartline.

 

None taken. However, I guarantee you 1000 bucks that if I'm 25 again and in Hartline's exact position, there's absolutely no way that pass is completed to the defender. Worst case scenario is I'm getting flagged for blowing him up before the ball arrives.

You see (and no offense toward you)--- there's 2 approaches here:
1. The passive one where you let the ball come to you and attempt a last second effort to make a play on it (which is what Hartline did).
2. The active approach where you recognize the underthrow and attack it immediately with aggression as if you own it (which is what great receivers do).

And my issue is: Yes, it's a given that the pass was off target; however, that doesn't mean a receiver can just give up on a play. IMO receivers still have some responsibility for what transpires at the other end, for finishing the play or at least attempting 100% to finish it. Just because the pass isn't on the money doesn't mean a guy can walk off the field and order a hotdog. If we want to throw blame at a QB for not extending plays when his protection breaks down, then we need to blame WRs for not extending plays/drives when the pass isn't between his numbers.

 

I really don't think it has anything to do with tight coverage based off of what I've seen. It seemed to me that its based off mostly his undeveloped ability to go through coverage reads. He lets the pattern develop too long and by the time he decides hes not going to make that throw, he's a few steps late to the next read. You could question his decision making because it appears he does too out on the field. A lot of the things he has issues with appear, to me, to be correctable. However, he needs to find the right coaching, because it is obvious he did not get it last year.

 

Could slowness of pass catchers taking longer to run routes have anything to do with it?

 

I don't think so, honestly. Its basically Henne watching the entire route development then saying "nah, next".

 

IMO it all comes back to his lack of accuracy. He doesn't have confidence in making throws that require placement, and he hesitates because of it.

 

Two good points that I agree with. His footwork as a whole isn't bad, its just the end of it in the specific situations I note (in other words, when he holds the ball too long). He will end up forcing it and he won't step into his throw, which makes it inaccurate.

I am convinced the offense will be faster in the sense of getting the ball out of his hands quicker. I also think that the offense will be more simplified in terms of his reading.

I don't think his accuracy is the main issue, I think his accuracy becomes an issue. What I mean is he reads the routes too long, consequently he is behind on his next read, thus minimizing his chances of throwing an accurate ball.

 

That's one of his problems, but he also has a problem at times of rushing through his progressions too quickly, not accounting for a favorable personnel matchup or pushing the ball up the field on a deeper route against man coverage. He did this a lot with Hartline and Marshall.

It's all symptom of the same thing. When your field vision isn't crisp, your quick mental processing not sharp, everything looks extreme. Too conservative, too aggressive, too hesitant, too impatient, etc.

And for all that if he could just be accurate on about half of his deep throws he'd probably still be a long term starter. But then, that's about field vision too, on those vertical routes.

 

That's different. Progressions and reads are different to me but I do agree with you. He does tend to got through them a bit fast at times, which is a bit odd to me since they are tied into your drop.

 

Yep, you can see his head just swivel from one side of the field to the other way to quickly.

But this stuff will get ironed out just via more experience and better Qb coaching as I suspect David Lee may have known how the WC should work, he was not a very good, technical Qb Coach as Henne's play fakes are criminally bad and as CK documented they were one of the common factors in Henne throwing Int's.

Hmm, wonder if Henne is just having issues adjusting to the game speed of the NFL?

 

IMO "not having good field vision" could be confused with "not always trusting what you see". It's possible that Chad actually does have decent field vision but has been drilled so much to not make mistakes that he questions that vision to where any slight hesitation can cost him.

let me ask you this---- if you're a QB and you're frequently taken out for an ineffective wildcat play (especially if it occurs after you've marched your offense into FG range) would that not inadvertently lead you to becoming more hesitant in your decision making or possibly even less confident in the decisions you DO make?

IMO, psychologically speaking, there could be serious ramifications resulting from what Henning (and Lee?) did to Henne..... however, I don't think they occurred for a long enough time to do permanent damage.

 

Further added, I believe Henning excessively conservative "make no mistakes" philosophy in conjunction with him taking the ball out of Henne's hands enough times will (and likely did) eventually lead to Chad having confidence problems, which could lead to hesitancy with the football.

And I don't think that's a Henning-Henne thing. I believe it's a Henning-QB thing. Look at 2009. We make the playoffs and Pennington has an outstanding statistical year against one of the easiest schedules an offense could ask for (while having no Brady or Rex Ryan on the menu), yet the one stat that stands out is the 19 TDs. 19? That's it?

When a QB has THAT type of season vs THAT type of schedule and he only throws 19 TDs, then something's not adding up, and my money is on Henning limiting his QB's opportunities once his offense passes the 40 yard line.

 

Unfortunately Henning's history doesn't indicate that to be the case. As CK pointed out previously, in Carolina Henning's offense was referred to as one of the most aggressive in the NFL. There really is nothing to indicate Henning's philosophy is conservative at all.

 

maybe he's changed, because the recent Henning <inside FG range> would lead you to believe so.

 

That point doesn't even make sense considering our performance in FG range when Pennington was QB. The variable that has changed though every time is who has played QB in Henning offenses.

 

my biggest concern with Henne is: does he truly have questionable vision...... Or did he too much question his vision? Personally, I can't make that distinction yet which is why I think he deserves more time with Henning finally not pulling at the strings.