Yeah, it's a classic movie. Interesting juxtaposition of WWII action with 60's hippie sensibilities thrown in for good measure, reflection of the times I guess. Angel Martin- classic. Always made for a good Rockford Files episode when he was in it, and that series was for my money one of the best ever on TV. Great episiodes with Tom Selleck, too- I remember one of them was titled "White on White and Nearly Perfect". Josey Wales- "How is it with stains?" Good stuff, sticks it to that carpetbagger: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oljhJZUdB3c
Yes, I remember the 2009 season well. VY was inserted as starter after the Pats blasted the Titans 59-0. Wonder if that was the motivation for the Titans D holding 6 of their final 9 opponents to 17 or fewer points. Young had more yards then the oppositions QB 2 times that year including getting distanced by our very own highly ridiculed QB, Chad Henne and was actually under 100 yards 2 times. Young had less then 20 attempts in 3 games and less then 200 yards in 6 games. The Titans ranked 25th that year in passing yards per game. Know why? Because Young can't throw the ball and read defenses. Never could. 2010 was no different. Not once did he throw for more yards then the opposition. Young was pulled for ineffectiveness vs Pitt, should have been pulled for ineffectiveness vs a decent but certainly not Pittsburgh-like, Giants team the next week. Sure he beat up on Oakland in week 1 before they got their stuff together. In just 1 out of 9 games where Young started or took the majority of snaps did he get to 200 yards. Young had 4 games with less then 20 attempts, again a very obvious attempt at protecting a seriously flawed QB. He was pulled or knocked out of 4 games either due to injuries (from running) or ineffectiveness. He had less then 100 yards passing in 2 games he played wire to wire which is something our incumbent starter has never done. Young makes Henne look like Dan Marino. I wouldnt even want Young QB'ing the Hurricanes let alone the Dolphins.
I agree it's confusing. But it's consistent, whether you're looking at what he did early in his career or whether you're looking at what he did in 2009 & 2010...so it's curious. We could speculate all day why, whether it's his inability to make decisions quickly or his Uncle Rico throwing motion not giving him the tools he needs as far as throw selection. I like how Vince Young makes BIG plays. He makes plenty of them, throwing the deep ball to Kenny Britt and Nate Washington. But those big plays are exactly what make me skeptical of that 2010 QB Rating given the small sampling, about a third of the work of a normal QB. What would that have looked like if he got the same number of reps as other guys and had to make more bread and butter throws? Incidentally, Chad Henne's not bad in the tight red area. Not great either, but not bad.
And I think people very much underrate what was going on behind the scenes during all that too, with instances of Young refusing to go back on the field because he was sulking, and with him not knowing plays in the playbook, being far too emotional and getting caught in the ups and downs. The notion that Jeff Fisher would for no reason at all just do everything he could to torpedo Vince Young is absolutely, positively absurd. Fisher is a highly respected coach in the NFL. And the notion that Vince's problems were purely about Fisher is just as absurd, given the fact that ownership is giving up on Vince anyway even after Fisher left.
I'd think whomever makes a move for him will have to have something in place to deal with that weakness, pound the ball, sub in a WC package, what have you. To me, his lack of running and creating big plays in that way is his most disappointing aspect of his game, why take an outstanding runner and anchor him into the pocket? As for his "Td or checkdown" mentality the unsaid with Young is he faced two or three rather average Defenses 4 to 6 times per yr in TX/Jax/Indy and you have to wonder how much he padded stats vs poor opponents? What does interest me in him is he would add "take off running" to "Td or checkdown", which makes things tough on a Defense such as the Patriots or Jets run. Eh, Henne's proclivity to treat the ball like it is on fire down in the red zone is one of his least attractive habits, he may be fairly productive I've just seen the man miss to many wide open chances in the EZ to really feel comfortable seeing him make a huge jump upwards.
Heheh.."25th in passing yrds per game"? Which means absolutely..nothing at all, that is so funny to me B14, what next "they were 28th in passing yds per gm when the temperature is below 70 degrees with a west wind blowing over 7 mph"? Point being ideally we are a ball control team anyway pypg means very little in the scheme of things. Young is only going to go for 150 ypg passing or so on average. Passing attempts as a metric of..what? I can think of some good arguments to pass on Young, but attempts and ypg is not one of them at the end of the day it is all about effectiveness and winning not YPG or what have you, if you had Chris Johnson why would you throw the ball very often with the modern version of Eric Dickerson in the backfield? That is the sort of thing that led Henne to 45 attempts vs the Bills and their 30th ranked rushing defense, do not out think the room Bro.
Think so as well, also think he has not played in enough games to really read the field well. Do think he has the proper mentality and tools to be a starting Qb in the NFL but also think he has to realize any improvements he makes are up to him to make them on his time and on his own dime imho, Henne is out teaching the O as well as he can to his teammates (and really, to himself as if you wish to learn something try to teach it) Thigpen as a tendered FA is nowhere to be seen. If dude is out playing golf or whatever, he has little chance to do anything at all in Miami, even Grossman is up in DC along with Beck going through volunteer workouts and he has no contract at all.
I think the fact Mike Vick was such a great story last year may have a lot to do with the attraction of Vince Young by fans and organizations. Mike Vick was an under-achiever gets thrown out, puts his life back together, and voila is runner up for the MVP. I think there are a lot of superficial similarities between them, but it ends there IMO.
Nah, maybe for some, but not for me, I see a Qb who is under 30 and has upside and has shown when he plays his team plays better overall. Would honestly prefer Kyle Orton, but if Young is added imho we should be happy they at least tried to upgrade.
Ok but your point was that you felt Young was anything close to an upgrade or suitable competition and the counterpoint CK made and then I made is that he is not. He finishes drives worse then Henne does. And then he also doesnt throw the ball as well as Henne does. The whole point is that even a conservative OC such as Henning felt enough confidence in henne to have him go and and try and win the game for his team. The Titans never really displayed that type of confidence in Young as QB. And all he did time after time was show them why. Young is and always has been overrated from a QB standpoint. he should be a running back since running is what he is good at and reading coverages is not.
Maybe, his play did improve the last 2yrs as a passer that is also undeniable B14, my problem is then what he is boils down to a mediocre Qb if he is not creating with his running ability, which makes no sense, but the demand is "he has to be more of a passer".
I wNt this egomaniacal, suicidal headcase lazy *** diva on my team like I want crabs. Stay away from this wacko.
Pads, this is the best argument you can make for having Young on this team and its a weak one. It actually implies Young is a gimmick as a QB..which he is. Coaches dont love athleticism at the NFL level, they love intelligence and quick decision making combined with accurate passes. Young fails in all three areas. In order to make quick decisions you have to be able to read and understand defenses. Young fails miserably here. As far as accuracy Young isnt awful on the rare occasions he is quick and decisive but those rare occasions do not warrant more then a 1 year incentive laden flier on him to be the backup/3rd string but he would only complain his way out of town since his mouth and ego are larger then his willingness to master the playbook. Jeff Fisher has the reputation as being conservative and hard headed but he brought Steve McNair along very well who was a similarly raw passer coming out of Akron. McNair progressed more in 1 season under Fisher then Young did in 5. He resurrected Kerry Collins career back from the dead. Player after player shows a willingness to go to battle for that guy. The fact that he saw Young for what he really was from day one and benched him despite what the owner wanted shows what Fisher is made of. There are huge differences in Eli Manning and Vince Young. To compare the two is like comparing Peyton Manning to Bruce Gradkowski. Palmer did work with Eli but Eli has always been a dropback passer not a 1 or 2 read and scramble guy. Eli has always stood in there to try and make the read. I remember watching him those first two years and he took some nasty hits hanging on to the ball too long. But he toughed it out and it made him a better quarterback. Young's first instinct has always been to run. From the time hes been at Texas, he has shown he will take off after the second read even if there is no pressure. Why? Why put your body at risk like that? Why be a QB if you arent going to throw the ball? As a QB, your role is akin to that of a point guard on the basketball floor..your job is to read the defense and put others in position to make a play. Your QB, should not be your best athlete, it should be your best decision maker and most accurate passer. Its very deniable. his play got better as the team added Kenny Britt and Chris Johnson in to the fold. His play got better as his responsibility lessened and all he had to do was turn and hand off to CJ.
Eh, not really, there are other arguments to be made and have been made. You forgot the "will drive KB to the abyss" argument as well.... Rare? He has improved as a passer every yr he has played B14, and Coaches love athletic ability so much so even Shula eschewed what won super bowls for the team to just let Marino's talent take over, all of Bill Walsh's Qb's were also good athletes etc. This is a talent acquisition business baby, cannot win without it. McNair typically passed for a little over 3,000 yds B14, his typical yr: 3,100 yds 20 td's 14 int's about 60% completions Which Young can do, but the deal with him is he missed a ton of games early in his career via injuries and Fisher benching him, that makes a direct comparison somewhat difficult as the development is not as great through a lack of play imho. Because that is how he is the most effective perhaps? Why anchor a Vick or a Young or a Thigpen into the pocket when they can create with their legs? Does tradition demand it or something? And McNair handed off to Eddie George..a lot...and ones' argument does not make much sense B14, "they added more talent to the offense and Young played better...that is proof he is not a good Qb" Err.. And let me add: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/McNaSt00.htm McNair ran MORE then Vince Young did, he did so his entire career with a high of 670 yds.
For all of this talk of Vince Young and how he can't play QB- I'm as wary as the next guy of his apparent mental instability and his status as a difficult teammate/player and problem child. That being said, the guy was the 2006 NFL offensive rookie of the year and a Pro Bowler. Pro Bowl again in 2009, just 2 years ago. When is the last time that a Dolphins QB made the Pro Bowl? Granted, Pennington should have in 2008, but didn't. I'm wary of Young's mental state, personality and ability to read defenses, and I don't care much for the "Uncle Rico" thowing motion. But you have to give the guy at least some credit for what he's accomplished in a brief NFL career, including 2 Pro Bowl appearances. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40mxiz-78f0&NR=1
KB is dead on about running QB's. There is no debate about that. Steve Young did not make the Super Bowl until he stopped running and started throwing. Ditto Elway, McNabb etc. All 3 of those guys had one of their two lowest rushing total seasons (in attempts) the years their teams made the SB. Athleticism at the QB position is NOT at all a factor, it is a hindrance if anything as players become so reliant on it, it impedes their progress in learning to read and react to defenses better by throwing the ball. You need talent but talent comes in different forms...at QB you need the talent to read defenses and decipher coverages then deliver passes in an accurate form. Also as far as Bill Walsh goes, Joe Montana is not what anyone would call a "good athlete. He was a darn great QB though and it had little to do with his mobility and everything to do with his mastering of his offense and ability to deliver the ball. McNair first few years drag down his totals in general. When the Titans became a contender McNairs stats were better and his rush attempts were down. Here is where you and I disconnect dude...rushing attempts from a QB will only correlate to more injuries to that QB. It happens more frequently when youre dealing with a QB who cannot read coverages effectively and make the proper progressions. If you cannot pass the ball in the NFL you will fail as a QB. And no stat you throw can change that. VY does not make good reads and he cant process the information quick enough to understand everything thats going on. Its the same argument we had about Cam Newton and I see the same things happening there. At least Newton is raw enough though that he may have a punchers chance. VY's been in this league for a handful of years and theres still little change in those areas. You misconstrued the entire argument in to what you wanted it to be instead of what it was in my opinion.
Heh, my basic argument is this: Running Qb's have wining records, that is also undeniable which is why the idea that a Qb must be anchored into the pocket strikes me as odd, the goal is to win, that is what they provide, we want to win. As far as I can tell, the only "running qb" who had a losing record was Jim Zorn and he played on horrible Seahawks teams, a Qb who rushes for 400 yds correlates with..#winning this "must be a pocket passer" stuff is nonsense, a Qb has to be able to operate in a pocket they do not have to stay there.
Exactly Bro, this is what I do not understand, Young is fairly well known commodity, who is trending upwards as a passer, who adds a Elite element to the offense via his running ability, and yet we hear all about this and that off the field stuff. Reminds me very much of the stuff said about Vick 3 yrs ago, now, gosh, he's pretty good, and the Eagles only had to take a chance on him. It is as if Dolfans are chained to the Qb issue and will not let it go until Marino Pt II steps out of the shadows and will happily bash anyone who is not Marino pt II no matter what they may offer on the football field, it's nuts, it is the way it is.
The pocket passing Qb wins as well. It all depends on the player but looking at SB winning Qb's, you'll find that the majority of them are your classic pocket passer.
Bro, we have to make the playoffs first, imho this devotion to "he has to be a pocket passer" is one of the odder things I've seen develop in the NFL. As I mentioned to B14, don't outthink the room, if an all pro Qb who is in his prime hits the market you have to at least examine them, and surely seriously consider bringing them into the Organization. That and imho we won't out Belicheck Belicheck, smart/tough/disciplined is his purview we may have to look at the counter to that "wonderful athlete who causes matchp problems that mess up schemes".
His rating and abillities say he can play QB and get wins. If he isnt as accurate and has as much pocket presence as a Manning or Brady then so what! They cant run where as Youngs failings are balanced by his ability to run and keep a Defense honest. I'd much rather have a threat at QB who threatens to make plays than a QB who is openly slated for being easy to read and play against. Im hoping Henne can improve but i would like Young to see what he can do with a different team.
Sadly one is not available and I really don't think it's out thinking any room. It's just the facts. Give me a pocket passing Qb any day of the week over one who loves to run and ends up getting hurt doing it aka Vick
I'd much rather have a Qb who slides up into a pocket and buys time for his Wr's to get seperation...
Steve Young. McNair also made it to the SB, Tarkenton made it to 3 Sb's. Top 10 -Greg Landry -Kordell Stewart -Jim Harbaugh -Donovan McNabb 1 SB's -John Elway 4 SB's -Steve McNair 1 SB -Fran Tarkenton 3 SB's -Mike vick -Steve Young 1 SB -Randall Cunningham 8 SB apearances and 3 titles amongst them, cannot even count the Championship Game appearances and Divsional Titles at what point does that myth get put to bed? So what you saying B14? I did not and have not latched onto Vince Young as an option for no apparent reason, it can work and work well. http://espn.go.com/nfl/gallery?id=5208880
I don't care what the fans voted him too. Perhaps you should watch tape on Vince Young. Then, and only then will you finally realize what everyone else already knows. Vince Young is hot garbage.
Big difference between a running QB, and a QB with the ability to run. Vick and Stewart are the only QB's on that list I would consider running QB's. Maybe Randall Cunningham, but he could actually throw a football.
All of those guys are much better passers than Vince, Steve Young turned into one of the most accurate passers in NFL history so I wouldn't say he won a championship being a running Qb, he actually had to learn to stop running to win in the league. Vick played so well last year because he stayed in the pocket more. A running Qb can make big plays and beat mediocre teams, give you 9 wins or so but elite defenses will simply toy with running Qbs, last time I looked you have to go through a few elite defenses to win a title more than likely. You can't gloss over his off the field stuff either, this is a guy that literally came a step away from complete mental breakdown and has shown himself to be a quitter when times get tough. I think a Qb that runs well and passes OK could win in the league but I don't think that player is Vince Young. A guy with his talent should have had half the league lined up to trade him when he got benched in Tenn, yet no one really cared too much. He was benched for Kerry Collins, outplayed by Kerry Collins.......Kerry Collins. He's a guy that has value as a backup Qb and if he would play as part of a WC package he could help us here but as a 16 game starter? He needs to go to a bad team and compete for a job and prove he has changed, I'd rather not throw a promising young defense and team away trying to resurrect this guy's career, he just hasn't earned that.
Heh, I had the benefit of watching everyone of those guys save for Greg Landry, and recall what was said about Cunningham back in the day. And that is the thing of it, you look at those names and they had winning career records, save for Greg Landry and Jim Harbaugh, even Kordell Stewart managed a 48-33.
Actually history says a running Qb is their most effective when matched to a stout Defense, a stat about McNabb is he never had a winning record on a team without a top 10 defense, we have a top 10 defense. As for toying with them, IDK, I've seen that style of Qb mangle a good defense just by running and being a better athlete, that sort of Qb makes it very tough on defenses, even good ones. Not so, Young outplayed Collins and led the same team to more wins then Collins could..twice, in 09 and in 10, as for the off the field stuff, that I cannot speak to, neither can anyone else as all there is revolves around rumors about Young not handling being benched well. Young has had no criminal convictions or anything of the sort, his worst off the field stuff is getting in a pushing match. My concern with him is whether or not he is willing to compete and bust his ***, or is he a Diva type of personality who is not willing to do so? The only real way to find out is to bring him in, but that opens up the team to a Vet Qb who may just waste space in a shortened training camp if there is one at all.
Every single one of them were absolutely pass first Qb's and especially Steve Young. He was an excellent pocket passer who happened to know when to bolt. Same with Elway. He could run but it was his last preference. Kordell Stewart? lol
What does that even mean? Is there some objective measure? Think about this, Cam Newton went #1 overall coming from the spread offense and running as often as he passed the ball, Young has never ran the ball over 100 times and his highest pas v run total is 93 to 357 as a rookie, does that make him a "run first" Qb? In 09 he was 55 runs vs 259 passes, still a 5 to 1 pass to run ratio.. Cunningham had yrs were he had 101 rushes and 118 rushes: 118 runs to 465 passes which is a higher rate then Young ever ran in TN. http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/C/CunnRa00.htm
118 to 465 is "pass first"? If it is, Young stays in the pocket more then Cunningham. So many misconceptions sometimes Bro, Young runs no more often the Cunningham, or McNabb in fact McNabb and Young have similar run to pass ratios: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/McNaDo00.htm
As I stated earlier in the thread McNabb, Young and Elway won SB's they ran less then in any other season to that point. So no running QB has won a Sb to date. Tarkenton lost 3 with a great D. McNair at the time he made the appearance was not a running QB. Jim Harbaugh was not a running QB. Your theory fails. Only Vick was the type of run first QB that Young IS now. And Vick is not that same player anymore. None of those guys won championships as a running QB. Who cares if they won games? We won 9 games with Chad Henne under center in 2009, why the heck would I want VY? Make a case for someone good at least dude. Ill tell you what a running QB gets you...look at a guy like Rich Gannon who came in as a running QB in every sense of the word. He was nearly washed out of the league until he became a pocket guy and he became the best at it to the point that if he had done it maybe 5-7 years earlier he would have had a ridiculously good career.
McNabb in 2004 (year the eagles made the SB) ran it only 2-3x per game as opposed to previously 5-6x per game. He took the next step as a QB that year and stopped looking to run and started looking to throw. he completed 64% of his passes, by far his best and dropped a 31-8 TD/int ratio on the league. Thats why Philly made the SB that year.
