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Sources: Secret labor talks in Chicago

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by CaribPhin, Jun 2, 2011.

  1. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=6618259

    Doesn't look like they budged, but it at least appears like they're trying. The fact that it was secret tells me it was more substantive than a PR stunt.
     
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  2. shaunm000

    shaunm000 Well-Known Member

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    Seems pretty positive.... hopefully we get a nice little surprise gift soon. I really cant wait for FA to start!
     
  3. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I was thinking this could be significant but then I saw the U.S. Magistrate Arthur Boylan was also there, and now I'm wondering if this isn't "secret" so much as a re-scheduled mediation session or some such.
     
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  4. cdz12250

    cdz12250 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Get the courts out of the way and talk turkey.
     
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  5. Samphin

    Samphin Κακό σκυλί ψόφο δεν έχει

    I woudl love it if it turned out they were just having a poker game or something.

    Honestly though, how secret can it be if all of us are talking about it? They would be better off having phone conferences and using gotomeeting if they wanted to keep it secret. Smells like a PR stunt on some level to me.
     
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  6. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Seems like the NFL is about as secretive as our Govt., i.e. there are no secrets anymore
     
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  7. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    It's secret because nobody knew about it until it happened. Nobody in the press knew they were going to have a three-day sitdown like this, until they'd already sat down and started. They're not making an effort to keep it secret, they just never told anyone about it.
     
  8. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    They've released a joint statement. It was exactly as I thought, just a re-scheduled mediation session. The court-ordered magistrate Boylan called it. Mediation next week has been canceled.
     
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  9. finyank13

    finyank13 Reality Check

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    https://twitter.com/#!/dkaplanSBJ/status/76364945717084160
     
  10. slickj101

    slickj101 Is Water

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    Aaaaaand that's the sound of desperation for offseason info.
     
  11. Desides

    Desides Well-Known Member

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    Yep. That’s why I didn’t bother posting about this. The court-ordered mediation is a non-story in general. Nothing is going to come of it.

    That said, there are apparently “confidential settlement talks” ongoing, which is the reason for canceling next week’s mediation session. That sounds hopeful, but I’ll believe something positive happens when I see it.
     
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  12. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Sounds promising
     
  13. B.Sebo

    B.Sebo TV Mastermind

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    I tweeted Greg Bedard (who is about as money on this stuff as anyone) how he was feeling after today, I got this response.

    This can't be bad news people, it may not be great news, but talking is better than not talking. Personally, I have gone from one percent of the season starting on time to five percent!
     
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  14. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    As much as people have made of the players splitting and faltering, I think the owners are having some of the same issues. You have guys like Jerrah who need that money coming in to pay off that palace and keep life normal. If he doesn't have those games, he will be hurt. The owners want football, the players want football - it is just a matter of trying to find a reasonable money split. Hopefully they can get it done.

    One of the more positive things I have heard about these sessions is that they are mostly lawyer free. It is De Smith, Goodell and a handful of influential owners talking here.
     
  15. steveincolorado

    steveincolorado Spook, Storme & Pebbles

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    The meeting was like the one at the end of the movie "stripes".
     
  16. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    :lol:
    It was a secret meeting in the dead of the night with mysterious sanctimony.
    In accordance with prescribed rituals and time honored ceremony.
    Matters of grave concern were weighed with dedicated caution,
    like whether or not to raise at stud, or draw, or spit in the ocean....

    With all due respect to Mr Ray Stevens. :smile:
     
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  17. MikeHoncho

    MikeHoncho -=| Censored |=-

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    And if its so secret, then how do so many people have photos of the "secret" tree house they met at?

    [​IMG]
     
  18. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    THIS report is the first one that actually moves the needle for me on hope for a deal to get done soon...in a long while.

    http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/06/03/report-owners-made-concessions-during-recent-talks/

    It comes from Mike Freeman on CBS Sportsline.

    http://mike-freeman.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/6264363/29762102

     
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  19. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    The best thing about whenever the owners and players reach an agreement is soon we'll have more things to talk about other than our running Hatfields and McCoys feud about Henne.
     
  20. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    lol..
     
  21. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    You know what I'am not worried about Mr.C....Jake Long leading this oline..he's fully in charge, accepted a serious leadership role, and you know he's got his boys followin his workout routine..I trust that dude.
     
  22. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    In reading Mike Florio's speculation on potential rulings that "neither side" will like...and thinking about it myself...I have even more hope than I did when I saw that the owners made 'key concessions' in the "not so secret" Chicago meetings.

    Bear with me.

    That's one tweet from Andrew Brandt (National Football Post) during the hearing. Then came another a few minutes later.

    This suggests that Paul Clement was being pressured by the judge panel, especially by Judge Benton, to settle on a time period for the anti-trust exemptions present in the old CBA. He started out at a year, and obviously, whether by language or by tone, he felt some push-back from the judge(s) on that issue, because he changed "a year" to "a business cycle". Paul Clement ended his arguments, reserving 5 minutes for rebuttal after Olson would go on to present his arguments. Ted Olson went up for his arguments and questions, and got peppered with a lot of them, leaving the impression that the judges are siding with Clement and the owners. But I notice that when Clement got back up for his rebuttal, the following came out:

    The judge(s) CONTINUED to hammer and chip away at this anti-trust labor exemption. First it was 1 year, then "a business cycle", now just 6 months. What this shows me is that this is an important issue to AT LEAST one judge (Judge Benton). We know that Judge Kermit Bye is in the player's corner in this process, relatively speaking. He was the one that wrote the dissent on the ruling of a stay being granted on the lockout.

    Earlier in the hearing, there was a point where Paul Clement was trying to argue that the court shouldn't rule on the anti-trust stuff until the NLRB has ruled. One of the guys I temporarily followed that were in the court room said that there was "some push back" from the judges on that claim by Clement.

    So that brings us back to a solution that "neither side" will like.

    What if they rule that the lockout could only continue for 6 months after the expiration of the CBA, and in so doing, giving strong legal credibility to the idea that the players' anti-trust lawsuit will be 100% valid 6 months after the expiration of old CBA?

    The CBA expired on March 11th. The lockout began March 12th. The first Sunday of the regular season is September 11th, precisely 6 months after the March 11th expiration of the old CBA. As I understand it, the NFL has worked out through some bye week shenanigans the ability to have a "second start" of the season the weekend of October 2nd. If the lockout ended September 11th, then this would give teams 3 weeks to get ready for the 2011 regular season.

    Is that impactful? Of course. Is it impossible? Not at all. Teams normally begin training camp around July 30th. For instance, that's exactly when veterans reported for the Cleveland Browns' training camp. When did preseason games begin? There's the Hall of Fame game which is always played a week earlier, but for 30 of the 32 teams the first preseason action is August 12th, barely 2 weeks after the start of training camp. Essentially, teams would have about that amount of time (2 weeks) to get their roster ready to play just like they would be getting it ready for that first preseason game, and then they would have an additional 3rd week to install the game plan for the Week 1 opponent. The offense would be installed via game plans week-to-week, and instead of getting the bye week off as is common, players would continue trying to install things during that bye week. The schedule would still post 16 regular season games.

    But none of that's actually going to happen. I'm just saying it could. We go back to the aspect of this being a ruling that "neither side will like".

    The reason the players would not like this is, from the outset it looks like a loss. Judge Nelson's ruling will have essentially been overturned, the lockout would continue, and there would probably be language in the ruling saying that she abused her discretion. Some would interpret it as a big win in the leverage game for the owners, to be able to keep the lockout going.

    But on the other hand, the owners would NOT be very appreciative of express language being inserted into this ruling saying that the lockout could only continue as long as the labor exemption dictated in the old CBA, a period of 6 months. The enemy of negotiations gridlock is clarity. The 8th Circuit judge panel will have given the players a CLEAR road map to victory. Victory for the players would be the successful execution of the Brady Anti-Trust suit against the owners, and for football to be forced to be played. The lockout would end in time for there to not only be football in 2011, but a full 16 game slate, and in the meantime they could successfully prosecute the anti-trust case against the NFL, which could take a while but would force the NFL to probably implement standards that pattern after what the old CBA demanded...just to be safe from damages in the lawsuit.

    It makes me wonder if the NFL owners anticipated this before the hearing, and if that is the reason they made "key concessions" (according to CBS Sportsline's Mike Freeman) in the mediation session that took place just before the hearing. It also makes me wonder if that is why some little birdies are suggesting that the owners have an internal deadline of the end of June before they want to have an agreement in place with the players.

    I think this is exactly the sort of development that will end the gridlock in the negotiations process. As I said, clarity is the enemy of continued hard-headedness. If the ruling comes out like I speculate, then neither side will be happy, and both sides will have every reason to get this done.
     
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  23. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.co...-could-issue-a-ruling-neither-side-will-like/

    Mike Florio just re-stated my theory point for point.

    I'd say it's a coincidence, but right after I posted what I posted in here and elsewhere, I emailed Florio this exact theory. No reply. He's claiming it came to him while he was on the radio with Howard Balzer.
     
  24. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    Not sure if this 2nd meeting was mentioned here yet, so here it is...

    http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=6636923&

     
  25. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    If anyone knew that there wouldn't be all these "reports" and "stupid jargon" about "injunctions" and "stays" from the "courts".
     
  26. finyank13

    finyank13 Reality Check

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    Classic union/management neogotiations.....what until the 11th hour......30 day window boys and girls...

    http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000...ime-is-now-for-nfl-players-to-get-a-deal-done
     
  27. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    The problem there is, there've been a lot of 11th hours so far. They've blown by all of them.

    I think the reality is that the owners were never prepared to let this damage the season, and I think they're the ones that will do most of the conceding in the coming weeks. Especially as it looks like the 8th Circuit was trying to signal both sides that they're going to overturn Nelson's ruling (lockout will continue) but also rule that the lockout is protected by Norris-Laguardia for the length of the anti-trust exemption present in the old CBA, a period of 6 months after expiration.

    That's a net loss of leverage for the owners. The 8th Circuit hasn't made that ruling yet, but they don't have to. They signaled it with their lines of questioning during the hearing. The lawyer for the owners has likely already warned them which direction that judgment should be heading.

    If you think about it the owners always had the tougher job in this labor dispute. There's been an historical 50/50 revenue relationship between the players and owners, going back a long way. The owners suddenly up and decided they were going to take advantage of Gene Upshaw's death, De Smith's controversial election, test the new guy and see if they could get that down to 40/60 with them getting the lion's share. But it's damn tough to move away from the status quo in a labor relationship this complicated and of this magnitude.
     
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  28. shaunm000

    shaunm000 Well-Known Member

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    HAHA, gotta love the media. How "secret" are these meetings if everyone knows about them?
     
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  29. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    If this keeps progressing well and the way everyone is starting to predict, I'm just wondering about the NEXT step...free agency.

    Cuz I gotta tell ya. The last salary cap for 2011 that the NFL owners proposed before de-certification was a $141 million cap. That would imply a salary floor of around $123 million. There were 17 teams according to PFT that were under that salary floor with their 2010 numbers, and that's with a bunch of those teams making it a point to clear/expense as much of their dead weight as possible in that uncapped year.

    Payrolls are not just low. They're lean, not fatty. That means a ton of teams have to do a ton of spending just to get above the salary floor. Who are they going to spend it on?

    Better hope Miami doesn't happen to be pursuing a free agent that Bucs, Chiefs or Jaguars are also pursuing...I'll tell you that much. If the $81 million payroll figure for the Bucs in 2010 can be assumed for 2011 (could be higher, could be lower) then they'll have to spend $43 million just to get above the salary FLOOR.

    All in all if you assume 2010 payroll figures for 2011 (not a great assumption, but a useful one), then half the league will be in salary floor trouble, needing to spend about $260 million just to get under that $123 million salary floor.

    And that's assuming the players accept the $141 million cap figure for 2011 which all indications are they will NOT. At $141 million cap, the NFL will have $600 million worth of 2011 payroll increases to play around with in free agency.

    Soon as the owners and players agree on a contract, there's going to be a WIND FALL. The Draft already happened. If you don't win the bidding on the free agent you want, and you didn't get what you wanted in the Draft at that position, that hole remains on your roster. Free agency is your last chance. And you suddenly have a sh-t ton of money to work with. And a bunch of it is NOT going to go to a high round rookie because there's probably going to be a rookie wage scale.

    So what happens? Huge contracts on new free agents. Lots of extensions for players currently on roster. Omar Kelly is right, those front office guys had better take their vacations right now because in a few weeks they could have more workload on their hands than they know what to do with. So could the agents. Like dumping a truckload of cash in front of a homeless shelter. Bedlam.
     
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  30. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    Nnamdi will eat into the Bucs cap a good deal I imagine. Makes you wonder the kind of cash that will get tossed at a guy like Tony McDaniel, and makes me think we were wise to get Soliai under contract even if just for the year.
     
  31. Larryfinfan

    Larryfinfan 17-0...Priceless Club Member

  32. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Makes sense. I think the owners have been anticipating that the 8th Circuit's ruling would not be the clean victory they'd hoped for and that's why they've been trying to beat the judges to a settlement.

    I'm not sure I agree with this 4 to 6 weeks crap. I don't think it'll take that long to get an agreement on enough things that they end the lockout while they hammer out other stuff. I really don't think they're going to want to push things all the way to July 15th, giving them essentially 2 weeks to conduct a free agency and get their Draft picks signed before training camp begins. They're going to want more than that.

    One thing you could see happen is, if negotiations reach a certain point, they could focus on the rookie wage scale and polish that up to where teams are allowed to sign their Draft picks, and sign undrafted free agents. This could happen before they begin free agency as we know it, and it could buy them more time to negotiate other things.
     

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