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Nobody wants to talk about this??

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by djphinfan, Jun 28, 2011.

  1. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    The time frame in this case would be determined by looking at other regimes who were similarly the worst in the league and see how many wins their coach were able to get out of them. DJ is pointing out that when you compare the number of wins that this regime has achieved to other regimes that have inherited similarly bad teams they compare very favorably. I don't agree that your criticism is reasonable in this thread. DJ is stating a documentable comparison. You are instead just saying that you feel they're regressing and that you don't have hope for the future. That is debatable but it is a legitimate opinion. It just does not relate to this thread.
     
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  2. dolfan22

    dolfan22 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    To me it's where we are now and where we most recently have been.

    Are we closer to winning the division and or the playoffs now , or a year ago or two years ago?

    Has the organization progressively gotten better ( compared to our competition ), whether it be in big bold steps or small baby ones?

    Is the most important position a positive with realistic expectations that we have that covered , or is an ever bigger question mark than it was ?

    Is the gap between the best team ( s ) in the division and Miami in our favour or are we falling further behind?

    Now of course if we win our division this year , someone magically becomes a winning leader at QB and we don't have the widening gap between our playmakers and the playmakers for elite teams , then you are right in placing your faith in this organization.

    I truly hope you are right.

    If you aren't after 4 years do we say sayonara to Sparano? and admit he is in over his head? Or do we say well , if and or but if these things happened we would not have been a .500 team ( or less ) and we "should" be close to maybe being a playoff team in year 5?
     
  3. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Your insinuating that I have been using ''if, and's, or but's' in my analysis, and making excuses for them in the prior three years when history shows they have done as well as anyone ever has since taking over a team in that condition..I don't need to make excuses for anybody that has done as well as they have since taking over a 1 and 15 team..I think what needs to happen is folks may need to rethink the thought process of building a franchise from scatch, take into account a first time head coach and GM, and be pretty happy with the results of having one of the youngest teams in football heading into its 4th year..

    Cowder..Solai..Carey..a punter and a snapper..Thats whats left..and that's what needed to happen...a complete rebuild, and I see no understanding or quantifying that fact.

    I think we need to look close to this team as it goes thru the season, based on what I have studied in the offseason, the additions, and the subtractions that were inhibiting the rest of the teams performance, I see a team that can compete for a playoff spot...
     
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  4. gandalfin

    gandalfin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    There are really only two or possibly three reasons we did so well in 2008. One is named Chad Pennington (yes, it further validates the importance of the QB position), one is the relatively easy schedule a 1-15 team is going to be given, and maybe an argument that the wildcat surprised a lot of folks. If rookie Henne, or Beck, or McNown had been the QB that year, we certainly wouldn't have gone 11-5 even with the fairly easy schedule, more likely 5-11.

    So there were extenuating circumstances in 2008. With the horrible management and drafting from the Wannstadt era, there was and is a tremendous void to fill. So the high expectations of some are just not realistic. If in 2013, we're having the same conversation, then this regime has truly been a failure, but that cannot be said right now.

    Also, there is talk of Belichick having done this or that, but Belichick is one of a kind. When all is said and done he may be considered one of the best 2 or 3 coaches in the history of the league. So nobody is doing what Belichick has done over the past decade. And fairly or no, Belichick has had also had the best QB over the past decade making him look awfully good. How can Sparano's situation possibly be compared to Belichicks?
     
  5. Striking

    Striking Junior Member

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    Sorry, no kids gloves when giving an evaluation of his performances, especially in 2010. 2008 is a looooooooooong time ago in football years. I won't bother rehashing that season, we all know it was a lucky year for us. But by all means keep attributing words to me that I have not used.
     
  6. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    Maybe it was a lucky season. But it sure seems to have caused a lot of amnesia amongst the causal fans. People complaining and calling for replacements as if the Miami Dolphins were not a rebuilding team for the last 3 years. One "lucky" 11-5 season and all of a sudden missing the playoffs, in the AFC East of all divisions, is grounds for a regime change.

    Penny was supposed to be the QB for 2 years, not one. He was supposed to hold it down until we got some decent pieces on offense to support our DEVELOPMENTAL QB. That didn't happen, so all of a sudden Henne is a bust b/c he struggled a bit during his OJT.

    Let us all bow are heads and give thanks for the fact that casual fans don't have control over personnel decisions .
     
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  7. DolfanJake

    DolfanJake Banned

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    of course you fail to mention that the Cowboys were 1-15 in their 1st year and trended steadily UPWARD, whereas here we started 11-5, and since then trended downward, especially last year, losing 4 of the last 5, and in the meantime, lost to Buffalo, Cleveland and Detroit, and getting blown out by NE in the final game.

    But lets definitely leave those facts out.

    When this regime is loses the first 3 games this year, and then has a cumulative losing record, what are you "everything in Dolphinland is goody-goody" people going to do ? What are you going to hang your hat on then ?

    Ridiculous :pity:
     
  8. DolfanJake

    DolfanJake Banned

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    Well said señor ! :theman:
     
  9. DolfanJake

    DolfanJake Banned

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    Haters or non-believer's ? I don't hate Chad Henne, but I sure don't believe in his ability to lead us to a Super Bowl.
     
  10. DolfanJake

    DolfanJake Banned

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    Dude you are on a roll. You just verbalized everything I have thought about this regime for the last year.
     
  11. DolfanJake

    DolfanJake Banned

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    Excuse me, but "just using numbers" going 11-5 to 7-9 and 7-9 IS regression and its very documentable.
     
  12. DolfanJake

    DolfanJake Banned

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    So you say you will "haunt" those who don't feel good about our direction ? So then we will haunt you too if we are right. No complaining about it, and whichever one loses the bet needs to make a full and public thread about how they were wrong, and why. Deal ?

    DJ I like my side of the bet a whole lot more than yours, so let the best predictor win.
     
  13. DolfanJake

    DolfanJake Banned

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    Bingo-bango, that makes the argument for a "franchise QB". Which clearly Brady was, even though a lot of NFL people didn't think so on draft day. But still you need more than just a caretaker at the QB position, and so far Henne, hasn't even shown he can do that at the very least. He has to show remarkable improvement this season, and I frankly don't think he can do it, because of all the odds against him - no OTA's, new offense & coordinator, strain between himself & coaches, lack of confidence from his teammates, lack of real leadership qualities, fans with no patience for him any longer, etc etc etc.

    About that last point, Henne was booed - CLEARLY booed at the last home game. The fans finally showed their frustration with him. He may have some initial support, but fans are fickle and the 1st time he throws a INT (which he does just about every game) they will loudly, and I mean LOUDLY let Sparano, and more importantly Ross know their displeasure. Ross is having trouble renewing season tickets already, and that means he will need walk-up sales more than ever. Having a QB that clearly the fans hate & doesn't win, will cause more & more of those walk-up sales to dry up. That is one reason why Henne better improve and fast, because Ross certainly will be up Ireland & Sparano's butt big time if Henne doesn't work out, and they will be gone. You can't run the ball every play, or the defenses will just box the line with 8 or 9 defenders every play. So that old style offense of Sparano is taking a huge gamble in my opinion and definitely setting himself up for failure. If the running game doesn't work, then without having to try to Suck for Luck, we will do that anyways.
     
  14. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    So you would like to see the Dolphins lose? Man, you have got to be the most downer depressing negative nelly I've ever seen on a Dolphins forum. Do you derive joy from being miserable and spreading misery? Are you self loathing too or just loath all things related to the Dolphins? Are you so negative constantly in person too? How can anyone stand to be around that kind of attitude all the time? I guess people could just figure, hey they've been around DolfanJake, they can put up with anything.
    You often say anyone who has anything positive to say as just being "goody goody in Dolphinland," or some such crap. Just because we see some good things doesn't mean we are blind to seeing things need to improve in some areas. But, man, to just drone on and on so negatively all the time on everything about the Dolphins...jeeze, if I felt that way so much, I'd either get another hobby, or just get the speedometer up to about 90 and then jerk the wheel into a bridge abutment.:sad:
     
  15. xphinfanx

    xphinfanx Stay strong my friends.

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    Somebodies glass is half empty!
     
  16. DolfanJake

    DolfanJake Banned

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    It has caused no amnesia for me. I think, in the long run, going 11-5 in 2008 was one of the worst things that could have happened to this regime. Its a true dichotomy - on one hand you want to win as soon as possible - then again you need to lose to get the future draft choices to truly build your team for the future. Its impossible to see how the team would have been built, you can't just cherry pick players early in the 2009 draft either, because who knows what player this regime would have taken, and that in turn changes or could change what player other teams took. The whole NFL would look different. Would this regime done more for offense had they had those earlier picks in every round of 2009 ? Again you can't predict who would have been there in any round, because one pick chosen differently could/would completely change what other teams would have taken in that draft, and thus the whole league & draft would look differently.

    Now 2008 was great for us fans, but looking back, would you have traded 2008 for better draft picks and maybe a greater chance this team would have been built better, stronger, and more importantly faster than the track we are on because of winning in 2008 ?

    All in all when it is done, 2008 may eventually be the Achilles heel of this regime, instead of its crowning glory.
     
  17. DolfanJake

    DolfanJake Banned

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    You just don't get it. I don't want to see losses, but if I am forced to bet in Vegas, I know where my money would go.

    I'm a fan, but not stupid. The chances this regime fails next year are much greater than if they come out winners. It grates on me just as much as I grate on you, when I see people fluffing up any numbers to be "rah rah" about the team. I look at them as if they are either idiots, or just blind.

    This team lost 4 of the last 5, 3 of which were losses to 3 of the worst teams in the league. On top of that they lost them at home ! We have a QB that was the determining factor in each of those losses. And you want me to be all cheery and rah-rah ?

    But I will also not be chased from the board or have my opinion muted, just because it doesn't jibe with your outlook, or the feel-good posts you want on the board. How boring would the board be if everyone just agreed with each other, and thought the same way. Sounds very communistic to me.

    The old "you will agree with us or you are the enemy" is so childish. This is where adult debate is allowed, and so be it. We have differing points of view, and you are not forced to read my posts. If you don't want to see or hear my "debbie downerism", then just pass over my posts. GEEESH!
     
  18. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    your bringing luck to the discussion huh? not sure how to debate luck...Bad luck is a fumble that doesn't bounce your way, its a badcall that should of went in the other direction, organizing the biggest turnaround in league history shows that Sparano as a first year head coach has some talent in his field.
     
  19. the 23rd

    the 23rd a.k.a. Rio

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    exactly
     
  20. DolfanJake

    DolfanJake Banned

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    And another thing Mr. Clean, telling me to find another hobby. How dare you ? Who the hell are you to tell anyone that ? That is not your place or anyone else on the board to do that. I am an adult and I will make those decisions for myself, and not by you or anyone else. I wouldn't dare to tell someone else that. Its the height of arrogance and self-importance to do that.

    The Dolphins are, and have been a HUGE passion for me for every day of their existence. I love them like no other sports team. I get that funny feeling in the pit of the stomach 2 hours before any game, and I root like hell during any game - just ask my neighbors.

    This past 10 years has KILLED ME, and it just continues to kill me as I have lost faith in this regime. I don't see any kind of a bright future until they and their out-dated philosophy are gone.
     
  21. DolfanJake

    DolfanJake Banned

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    And the last two years have shown he's not as good as his lucky 1st season.
     
  22. DolfanJake

    DolfanJake Banned

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    And I believe some people who rah-rah for this regime's team must be on drugs. Who cares ?
     
  23. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    The problem I have with your analysis is you leave no room for the opposite to happen,which tells me all I need to know. What I'am trying to do in this thread is put some things into some perspective, which is, your hate is a little more dramafied then what has been accomplished deserves.

    Sure, I'll take the bet..What are the parameter's, what do they need to accomplish before you sing like a canary?
     
  24. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    in normal circumstances that may be true, I don't think taking over the worst team in football is normal circumstances..Where is this fact come into your analysis.? or are you just a jaded fan from the past who is just bitter and closed minded.?
     
  25. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    Win a Super Bowl before week 3.
     
  26. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    lol...this post is completely illogical.

    Yup, we should of went, 4 and 12, 7 and 9, and 10 and 6...Then Jake would of been happy?...less wins, no division title, but more happiness..lol
     
  27. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    Who the hell are you that you cannot read English? I never told YOU to find another hobby, I said if I were as negative as you are about the Dolphins, I'd either get another hobby or jerk the wheel into a bridge abutment at 90 mph!!!
     
  28. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    “I believe in a long, prolonged, derangement of the senses in order to obtain the unknown.”
     
  29. DolfanJake

    DolfanJake Banned

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    No DJ. It is the logical progression that should have happened. Now we are stuck in mediocrity at best because we didn't get the tools necessary to be that winner in 2011.

    If we go 7-9 again in 2011 will you think it was better than if we could have drafted differently,and been 12-4 in 2011 and maybe won a division, and won a playoff game and gotten to the AFC Championship.
     
  30. DolfanJake

    DolfanJake Banned

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    Obviously. I've read you posts.
     
  31. DolfanJake

    DolfanJake Banned

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    Dj I can believe that, if you say so. :tongue2:
     
  32. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Listen, you wanna give up on a regime that has won more games, or as many, than any other regime put in the same situation has, I don't, i wanna give them this year to show what they have built over a 3 year span, which is completely logical in terms of expectations imo, and I'am only basing that on what the norm is for a rebuild of this magnitude.
     
  33. DolfanJake

    DolfanJake Banned

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    Okay fine, you do that, but don't beat everyone else senseless that doesn't enjoy or appreciate your enthusiasm for them. I don't share your faith in them, and expect them to fall flat on their faces.
     
  34. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I don't think I do that, I try to base everything on film and what my eyes tell me, I thought this thread was an objective set of facts and circumstances that could challenge the thought process of some folks..

    I pride myself on being as accurate as possible in terms of personnel, thru lots of hours dedicated to just that, and I'll put my record up against anyone on this board, so your acccusation that i'am really just an enthusiast aka ''homer'' or that its just blind ''faith'' is insulting..

    I think we have a solid young football team, and because our current regime has put us in good shape from a salary cap position after 3 years, I believe we can be active in the market to improve our young group..
     
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  35. Striking

    Striking Junior Member

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    I guess they were looking for their Kurt Warner if Pennington was to be the starter for more than a year. In the end it became more of a distraction, and perhaps a hindrance to the development of Henne.

    It doesn't matter now. Henne is our Phil Simms. The head coach wants to run the football first. Fine, but you have to make sure you can get 8 offensive linemen who can get the job done. I still have serious doubts about whether they have enough guys to do it given their health history and status at the end of the year.

    I'm one of those casual fans that believes you build a team on offense first. You can argue draft pick value all day but the lean should be offense until you have built your core. :yes:
     
  36. Striking

    Striking Junior Member

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    Luck is that thing that has been discussed several times here. The bad luck that Chad Henne threw 18, 19 whatever interceptions it was, but only had one catch-able interception dropped. Luck is that thing where the MVP (don't know if he was actually the MVP) is injured for the year but their team outscores us, allows fewer points, but loses a tie breaker to us. Luck being down 7-0 in NY, fans are going wild, Chad Pennington is about to be sacked and has given up on the play, but somehow is not, throws a jump ball that is caught by Chris Chambers to start a change of momentum drive. Luck, it comes in all plays, players, and and their random results.
     
  37. muscle979

    muscle979 Season Ticket Holder

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    If you look at teams that have drafted first overall since 1990 and then look at their records three years later you'll find that the Sparanofins are incredibly average in that regard. I posted this information by your request DJ in another thread. I don't see how an overall three year record is a better indicator of anything than individual season records. Those same Cowboys you sited were winning Super Bowls by the third year. But their overall record won't look like anything special because they started at 1-15. With the Fins you have a first year record bloated in the opposite way and then two losing seasons. I think there is no doubt that Jeff Ireland has added good players to this franchise. I think there is a lot of doubt as to whether Tony Sparano can lead them to anything siginificant. As far as this rebuilding franchise overall record thing, I think history shows that it has not been a disaster nor anything to beat your chest about. The big problem which I think has been said over and over is that when football was mostly recently played, the Fins were trending heavily downward. Yes we addressed problems but as of right now there has been absolutely ZERO offseason activity. I fear this lockout came at a terrible time for Miami in particular b/c they needed lots of coaching and offseason work.
     
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  38. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    I wouldn't trade wins for better draft position, but I see your point there. I would trade wins for QB & young player development though. Overall I think the 11-5 season caused a lot of people (myself included) to have some unrealistic expectations going forward. We made the playoffs, but we we were not a good team, and we were old. I disagree w/ the idea that we regressed over the past two years. I think the 2010 team was younger, faster, and more talented than the 2008-09 teams. I think the 2011 team will be the most talented group we've put on the field since the Wannstedt era. Talent doesn't equal wins though, ask the Cowboys. The coaches have to coach, the players have to execute, and our schedule is full of teams that are equally or even more talented than we are.

    I'm optimistic about our chances though. I don't think the missed OTAs/lockout will be as big a factor as some think. I think the UDFAs and bottom of the roster guys will suffer b/c they won't have as much time to show what they can do. But the first team guys, the high draft picks, they will have had time to wind down, both mentally and physically, from the draft process & last season. Training camp will be about getting the first teamers ready as opposed to deciding who's going to make the team, and the preseason will be more about building cohesion than deceiving upcoming opponents.

    The Jets are over the salary cap as we speak, and they have a slew (Cromartie, Holmes, Edwards, Harris, Smith, Folk) of FAs who are likely to jet on them, Harris being the only exception. The Pats will still be the Pats, but outside of QB and TE, I think we're a more talented team and let's not forget how the Jets exposed them last year. All year long teams were at a loss for how to defend NE and credit Ryan and co. for solving the puzzle. The rest of the league was watching, just like they were watching when Greg Williams defanged the WC, and they'll be copying Ryan's tactics of flooding the short zones/middle and playing man on the outside. The Pats are still the favorites as long as they have Brady, but I don't fear them at all. Especially if we sign DWill and get another pass rusher.
     
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  39. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    I would never trade wins for draft position. Our success in 2008 changed the mentality of this organization. That is evident every time someone complains about us being 7-9.
     
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  40. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    The cowboys won the superbowl in their 4th year I believe?..and how does having 25 wins after 3 years average?
     

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