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What this organization could do to inspire my long term hope:

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by ToddsPhins, Jul 28, 2011.

  1. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Considering the plague we've experienced at QB since Marino,

    you know what would excite me more than bringing in the "best" (debatable) immediate option at QB (Orton)?---------> Us actually taking the time to properly develop a young QB in a system designed around him (including personnel & playbook) and actually seeing it through until we know for sure whether or not he's our guy (even if it means suffering a losing season) rather than constantly looking for stop gap after stop gap QB whom might be able to ride a good team to the playoffs but will likely never be the difference maker regarding SB hopes.

    You know--- like what most organizations understand is necessary for their team to take the next step (Ravens, Packers, Jets, Falcons, Broncos, Rams, Bucs to name a few).

    Heck, the Cardinals gave up DRC, a 2nd round pick, and $60 million for a QB who has yet to prove anything, is less experienced than Henne, had a better surrounding cast than Henne, had trouble in big games, is statistically equal or inferior to Henne, and is possibly less talented than Henne. What's wrong with this picture?!!!

    Kolb has shown nothing to indicate he has any more upside or greater work ethic than Chad, so why is there so much clamor regarding Kevin as a franchise hopeful QB in Zona, yet we're looking to replace an equivalent QB (Henne) with a player (Orton) who was less sought after than Kolb?

    I look at it this way: two other teams have already ditched Orton for 1st round-talent players with great upside in hopes they develop into something better, something franchise worthy. They even spent 1st round picks to do so. We, quite oppositely, would be sacrificing a talented player with great upside in order to bring in Orton. <huh?>

    Most organizations make every attempt to build a team (scheme & personnel) around its talented, young QB; we, however, treat ours like a step child'esque afterthought--- playing him in a system not tailored to his skill set nor altering it to suit him, not acquiring (drafting) players who match his skill set, subbing him out for a flailing wildcat during crucial times & settling for FGs---> essentially stunting his development by denying him these reps pivotal to growth & improvement.


    What we're doing now (this sudden realization of the need for speed, balance, and playmaking ability) should have been attempted the year we drafted Henne. However, we wait 3 drafts later........ and who loses out from this blunder?-----> the QB who might currently be our franchise guy if we had made this effort in 2008 or 2009.



    Poop on a stick for once just have the patience to develop a young QB while giving him the tools to succeed from DAY 1.
    I don't care if it's 2 years from now after we realize what Chicago & Denver already have--> that Orton isn't enough to center a franchise around. Is that too much to ask for?
     
  2. CitizenSnips

    CitizenSnips hmm.

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    What this organization could do to inspire my long term hope:

    Win football games.
     
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  3. GridIronKing34

    GridIronKing34 Silently Judging You

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    Here's the problem with this Todd and I think most don't seem to understand.

    Tony Sparano and Jeff Ireland are in "win now" mode to save their jobs. They lose, they're out. Then a new coaching staff comes in and we'll probably start all over.

    In theory, yes.. it's a good idea. But in all honesty, it's year 4 for Sparano/Ireland and preaching patience is not going to keep them in Miami.
     
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  4. rdhstlr23

    rdhstlr23 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Crazy thing is...they're in that predicament because of the marriage they made to Chad Henne.
     
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  5. TheMageGandalf

    TheMageGandalf Senior Member

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    You may be right about the Orton issue, but as usual when it comes to Henne its all a bunch of excuses like a new recruit *****ing and moaning as to why he cant pass the PAT (physical) to enter into the Academy.

    Its too damn hot, the dummy drag is to far, I didnt eat breakfast, my shoes were untied, you started the stop watch before I was ready, the grass was too wet and I slipped, the top of the wall has too many pebbles and I couldnt get a good grip to climb up and over, neighbors dog was barking last night and couldnt sleep right, a bug flew into my eye/mouth, etc. etc. etc. etc.
     
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  6. GridIronKing34

    GridIronKing34 Silently Judging You

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    Can't argue that. All I can argue is that these guys are gonna try to save their jobs like anyone else would.
     
  7. brandon27

    brandon27 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Which is exactly why they should have all been out during the offseason as Ross tried, but failed to do. That debacle right there, is going to set this franchise back another few years if things don't work out as they've planned this year. Even after not getting Harbaugh, Ross still should have stuck to his guns, found another coach and started over his way if that's what he wanted to do. Instead, were stuck with a GM and Coach that's looking to mortgage the future in order to win now.

    It hasnt been so bad so far however, all we've given up is a late rounder for Bush. That's why I'm against bringing Orton here. I'd consider a third for him, and nothing else, but even that to me is too much to give up for a marginal upgrade. Thats just my opinion though. Id rather see what we have in Henne in a new system, that doesn't include a senile dan henning. Still don't think he's going to get any real support though since we still dont really have a QB coach to help him along. We've all seen the flashes of what could be a good player in Henne. Somewhere along the line though this staff, and Henne have burried that. Have to find out how to get it back, they have to loosen things up in my opinion. Just let them go out there and play. Anyways...

    Long story short... I agree with Todd here...
     
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  8. rdhstlr23

    rdhstlr23 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Also, I think asking a team of 53 (not including QB now) men, a fanbase hungry for a winner, an organization that is shelling out money, asking them to deal with a losing season at the expense of going through growing pains of 3 year starter is A LOT to ask.
     
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  9. GridIronKing34

    GridIronKing34 Silently Judging You

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    There's not a chance they're going to do that this year. That's all I'm saying. It's "win now" mode and all you can do is sit back and watch...
     
  10. Aquafin

    Aquafin New Member

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    yes that would help but it would also help to bring in players that are impact players because not very many people are even talking about us finishing 500 and so the front office hasnt inspired me at least not yet but I still have hope but its definately dwindling.
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2011
  11. Kanye West

    Kanye West 'Parcells' Guy

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    Get Kyle Orton and not Vince young, win football games, start drafting better
     
  12. RoninFin4

    RoninFin4 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    In a nutshell, I think you just described why Tony Sparano should've been fired after that Patriots loss.
     
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  13. Aquafin

    Aquafin New Member

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    the poor house
    I just dont know what to think about Tony Sparano ,and with the jets and pats making bigger splashes i just dont think we are going to be able to get out third place at least not this year. but who knows too many things can happen and No kle Orton isnt better then Vince young or denver fans would not be wanting to say, see ya later Orton.
     
  14. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    I would normally agree Todd, but this organization CAN'T develop a top tier QB from a prosepct when the QB coach is Karl Dorrell... in his first year EVER as a QB coach.

    I am not a Dorrell fan to begin with, but to think he is the awesome QB coach who'll be able to develop someone is just wishful thinking by this regime. Or, more likely, they wanted another QB coach but no coaches (except crap ones) are willing to come work in Miami under a shaky regime.
     
  15. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    And if he had already been fired, I'll bet we would have closed Harbaugh and had him now. Oh well. Sparano's the man this year... then maybe Ross eats the salary and fires him anyways. Unless Daboll and "QB COACH" Karl Dorrell somehow create a spectacular, flashy South Beach offense for Ross.

    Sounds likely.
     
  16. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    righhhht....... because we played flawless as a team last year and Henne was the reason we didn't make the playoffs. That's a cop out. Penny was the choice in year 1. Penny got hurt and Henne, the back up, took over in year 2. The entire team collapsed in year 3.

    Year 3 was the ONLY year we actually tied ourselves to him (but that's what teams do with young, talented QBs). However, we never fully "married" ourselves to him b/c we NEVER built an offense around him (personnel wise or playbook).

    Henne is not the reason this staff is on the hot seat. The numerous other problems takes the cake here. If anything, this staff's lack of building a team around Henne actually prevented them from marrying themselves to him.
     
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  17. DOLFANMIKE

    DOLFANMIKE FOOTBALL COACH 32 YEARS Luxury Box

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    I'd even settle for this: Win football games that we should win.
     
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  18. Aquafin

    Aquafin New Member

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    the poor house
    I think the dolphins should rehire Don Strock or Mike Shula and Mike is betting set up to fail thru this lock out.

    wait is Don Strock working for us i cant remember ?
     
  19. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Sorry for the confusion. I don't mean we need to start right now, just as long as we do it within the next few years.

    Good points btw. I realize they need a guy to win "now", but if the hypothetical competition between Henne and Orton is remotely close, then IMO Henne should get the nod for the simple fact that he's still developing and has a higher ceiling even if Orton's experience advantage makes him slightly better at the moment.
     
  20. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    We have yet to fully "marry" ourselves to a young QB; we have not gone "all in" with one and actually made his success and development a priority. That's the problem. We might've been set to marry Henne, but we got sidetracked with our mistress, Pennington, who was never in the plans for the future.

    Atlanta went all in with Ryan.
    NY did with Sanchez.
    Balt fully married Flacco.
    Bucs had their honeymoon with Freeman.
    Rams have been all in from day one with Bradford.
    Lions have been married to Stafford outside of Oline help.
    None of the above are similar to what Miami did with Henne.
     
  21. bran

    bran Senior Member

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    i agree with this i was living not too far from tampa and listened to their sports talk when freeman was drafted everybody said they thought he was a bust, and his first year was terrible he had 10td and 18 int had a qb rating under 60 yet they stuck with him and his next year had 25td and 6int qb rating of 95. the dolphins need to draft a qb and stick with him no matter what, not every qb is going to look like an allstar after just 1 or 2 seasons sometimes it take 3 years to show your potential but the NFL and all sports are now an instant gratification mode where if you dont show anything in a year or 2 your done.
     
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  22. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Nobody is asking anybody to lose, but at some point sacrifices need to made in order to develop talented players rather than constantly looking for more experienced (albeit less talented) options to win "now". There's trade-off involved, and we've yet to make it regarding QB. We had absolutely ZERO problem doing it in 09 with 2 rookie CBs (Davis & Smith), basically ensuring us of not being a playoff team....... but we can't do the same with a QB? Cmon.

    Henne's stared for 2 seasons. If he starts this year, it will mark the first year we have actually committed an offense & playbook tailored to his needs. This should've happened in 2008!
     
  23. Bumrush

    Bumrush Stable Genius Club Member

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    I agree and disagree..

    I like Henne and think he is salvageable.. However, I also have a long memory and recall 2008 very clearly. Many of us wanted to give John Beck another chance to develop and start and were furious when Chad Pennington was brought in.. If Orton can come in and command this offense, what is the worst thing that could happen? A playoff push? Some excitement? Winning?

    Since when did competition and a desire to win become irrelevant? For the first time in years we have a top 10, heck potentially top 5 D. If Henne played ANYWHERE near Pennington's level in 08 we win at least 3, possibly 4 more games last year. If Orton can come in and limit turnovers and take advantage of our weapons better than Henne has, isn't that a net gain? If Orton comes in and gets beat by Henne or struggles, then we can still go back to developing Henne. I for one don't want to waste another season walking on eggshells over the QB position. Bring in Orton, have a fair training camp and may the best man win.
     
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  24. bran

    bran Senior Member

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    i agree 100 percent i think henne has talent to be a great qb but there is nothing wrong with competition for some reason teams have gone away from it.
     
  25. Larryfinfan

    Larryfinfan 17-0...Priceless Club Member

    It could be argued that they're in the predicament because they didn't give Henne the tools necessary for success. That's what Todd is saying...spend money on more talent around the QB and see what Henne can do...instead they force the guy to be the next Dan Marino from day one and carry the team on his shoulders... Maybe someday he can, but not yet...

    Let's get more talent around him...why didn't we go after a guy like Olsen...when was the last time we cheered a TE play ?? How about a speedy WR to complement Marshall and Bess ?? How about another role player type OLB ? And pair of Safeties ??
     
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  26. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    I don't recall anybody being furious when Pennington was brought in other than maybe people who can't get over a player being from an opposing team.
     
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  27. GridIronKing34

    GridIronKing34 Silently Judging You

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    Like any acquisition, you have the majority of who are "OK" with it... the small percentage who are in live with it. And another small percentage who hate it. That's what I recall with Pennington.
     
  28. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Good points. Well then heck-- maybe one of these days, just one of these days we'll find the hopes of developing a QB under our Xmas tree..... or Menorah.... or where ever Jewish people put their presents.
     
  29. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    I think Daboll will be the guy who works most extensively w/ Henne and that Dorrell is a good coach who Sparano wanted to keep on the staff. Weiss and McDaniels used a similar model as Coordinators and in MCD's case as the coach as well. I don't care who teaches Henne as long as someone does it.
     
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  30. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    If we have to get Tanehill (Thanks Boomer), Weeden, Jones, Luck, or Barkley, I'll take solace knowing this staff won't have their hands on him.
     
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  31. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    We didn't have a top 5 defense last year, but we have the potential to have one this year. Why? Because of guys like Soliai, Wake, Langford, Davis, Smith, Misi, McDaniel & Odrick and others who we developed from pups into the core of a very good defense. Why can't we devote the same resources and patience to the offense now that the defense is pretty well stocked?
     
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  32. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    While everyone's focused on one position, that's exactly what Ireland been doing all offseason. Pouncey, Thomas, Clay, Gates, now Reggie Bush. We seemed to have struck out on Williams and Bradshaw but we reportedly made offers. Free Agency starts tomorrow and we have some $$$ to spend so let's see what happens. All of the hand wringing and second guessing is uncalled for at this point.
     
  33. pumpdogs

    pumpdogs Well-Known Member

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    All the qbs you mentioned were #1 draft picks,when you draft a qb that high he makes or breaks you.
     
  34. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    I don't have a problem with Orton per se, but I do have a problem with perceiving him as the starter before he steps foot in Miami. (IMO this becomes Pennington all over again with the team looking to the experienced veteran again, placing Henne in another precarious situation). At what point do we let the team view Henne or any young QB as the future w/o conflicting everyone's expectations by bringing in high profile vets to compete?

    I expect Orton to have the edge right now due to his experience, but if Chad & Kyle battle it out and Henne is the runner up by only a small margin, then IMO it makes more sense regarding our future to let Henne start based on his likelihood to continue improving.


    No young, developing QB will ever win the starting job in a head to head battle verse a decent, experienced vet (especially when competing in a new system).
    Bradford wouldn't have started last year if Orton were his competition; ditto for Freeman and Sanchez. Matt Ryan would've likely sat the bench for his first year or two in a head to head battle vs the Orton of now. However, these teams realize a sacrifice is needed to help their young QB reach his potential. At some point we need to fully commit to a young QB (let the world know he's our guy) even if a vet is currently a better option.

    Did the Falcons tell Matt Ryan that the team isn't his or that he's gonna have to compete with seasoned vets and beat them out-right if he wants to start?
    Did the Rams do it with Bradford? How about the Bucs & Freeman? Those guys didn't have to "earn" it by beating out a quality player; their teams expressed ultimate confidence in their QB and truly married themselves to their guy. Offenses were altered; personnel was altered; playbooks were altered...... and all done before their QBs proved they deserved it. They went all in with their QB.

    What's been our outlook toward Henne? It's been---> you deserve nothing until you win the starting job (even if that requires beating out a guy like Pennington or a starting QB like Orton). This organization & fan base has inadvertently ensured this carousel at QB thanks to our self-fulfilling prophecy attitude regarding QBs. IE: when we're always looking for a short term answer, we remove ourselves from any long term solution.
     
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  35. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    you mean first round draft picks. It doesn't matter. Either you commit yourself to your talented young QB or you don't. If you don't commit, he's never gonna succeed (unless he bounces around the league for a while b/c of it to where he can build up enough experience to make an impact years later).

    What round was Colt McCoy taken in?
     
  36. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    IMO, they are in this predicament because of the shotgun wedding between Sparano and Henning, orchestrated by Daddy Bill. as much or more than a marriage to Henne.
     
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  37. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    As I recall, Mike Shula was available after last season, ready and willing to be considered for a coaching job with the Dolphins, and not so much as a hiccup from Davie, Florida going his direction. Don't know about anyone else, but I'd feel 100x better about our coaching staff, if the QB coach was named Mike Shula rather than Karl Dorrell.
     
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  38. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    I recall cheering several vs Titans last season.
     
  39. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    Yeah, I'd like to see anyone produce a thread that said, "WTF did we sign Pennington? Now we can't develop Beck!"
     
  40. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Exactly.
    Gates has a bright future but thanks to the lockout he might not contribute for another year or two. A bridge from now to then with a guy like Braylon Edwards (or Sims Walker) would be nice seeing as Edwards already has some rapport with Henne. Plus we'll NEED IT if the Jets land Nnamdi.

    TEs take a while to develop, so Clay might be a few year project. IMO it'd be wise to provide an immediate threat at TE with maybe Zach Miller who would greatly improve our 3-1-1 formations since he's a true threat in the passing game (There's a big difference between Marshall-Bess-Hartline-Fasano and Marshall-Bess-Hartline-Zach Miller). Our 2 TE sets would be deadly with Miller and Fasano. That way Clay can break in as a role player while acting as our 3rd string TE.

    If this regime wants to win now, then give us SOMEONE who immediately upgrades our WR/TE position while we wait on Clay & Gates to develop b/c if the injuries of last year reoccur, then no QB is doing well here. We saw how bad things get with Fasano, Marshall, and Hartline out. I'd rather have an insurance against that happening again (along with more immediate talent at WR/TE) rather than a tiny, temporary upgrade at QB.

    IMO Zach Miller would be the greatest addition in regards to making us better immediately. I think he improves us more in 2011 than Orton does by (hypothetically) starting over Henne. We all know Henne has the ability to beat elite teams and manage a game. Add Miller, Pouncey, Bush, and D Thomas to the arsenal and Henne shouldn't have any problems when the entire team isn't falling apart or riddled with injury again.
     
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