Why does that matter? Not many number two receivers draw double teams. What's your definition of a play?
I notice you didn't name stretching the field or making big plays. IMO that's the skill set we're missing at WR and IMO it's why we went after Gates in the draft.
To go along with everything Stringer said, I also like his hands, toughness and ability to stretch the field.
Ive heard three different quotes from players and coaches leave his namo out when talking about weapons..Its always Bush, Marshall, Fasano, Bess..Coach said the same thing.. I do know how smart Hart is, but Iam not sure you can keep Bess off the field that much by not starting..
Those aren't skills. Those are things that are the result of many things. But Hartline certainly does have the skills to do that.
My mistake. Hartline was 2 of 3 for 27 yards vs Griffin. For the overall game, including coverage from Verner, he caught 5 of 7 for 98 yards, a 19.8 average. You've gone from drops (wrong) to fumbles (wrong), and are now at double teams. Why not put everything together, or do a bit of research before asking?
It matters because if you're not the guy being doubled then you're the guy who's being left in space b/c the other guy is being doubled. On our team, that's Marshall and sometimes Bess. Hartline is an afterthought for opposing defenses, as he should be. My definition of making a play is when one guy goes above and beyond what's expected of him and a big gain, TD, etc, results. Two plays come to mind w/ Hartline, the miracle catch at Tennessee and the slant vs Nawlins that he took to the 6 yard line and I wouldn't say he "made" those plays.
Hartline can sneak pass the defense on a play action, double move or flea flicker but he's not just gonna straight up run past anyone. That's why we drafted Clyde Gates, to get a legit deep threat.
Yeah, and an 18 yard average over 7 games and 32 catches doesn't matter either. Hell, I'm on South Beach, with a number of Jet fans. They all, save 2, agree that Hartline is really good, and will be better. Yet, we have Dolphans taking shots at him for no reason. Go figure.
No, he can get behind a defense. Because of how he runs routes and his technique. You would be hard pressed to find an instance where a defender was able to press Hartline at the LOS. Gates certainly can become a player, he has the talent, but like all WRs, he won't do anything until he learns how to beat press coverage.
It doesn't matter because number two receivers rarely get doubled, especially when you have Brandon Marshall. I've seen Hartline make plays.
I've seen him get past a defense without the aid of the play action or flea flicker. He can stretch a defense.
Exactly, watching Gates highlight videos, all of his great plays are either, fly, wide receiver screen or broken play. I believe one was an actual post route. He might provide some spark, however I am not counting on him being a huge deep threat his rookie year.
To be fair, you'll find few, if any, WRs in college that can beat press. Mainly because they rarely need to. But thats what makes the learning curve for WRs in the NFL what it is, and why so many WRs that appear to have the necessary skills end up busts. Hopefully you can work Gates into a few packages. But you can't rely on the guy making an impact as a rookie.
I am not saying that Gates is going to be a terrible player. I would just put the over/under on his catches at 30. Still reading today that he caught a pass over Vontae Davis does bring a little more confidence to his playing ability.
I'm confused. If Hartline didn't fumble last year then who is this? [video=youtube;Ucd6rc4JSFM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ucd6rc4JSFM[/video] Am I in the twilight zone?
That's what I mean when I say "make a play". Not every ball is perfect, sometimes the defender is in good position, etc. A good WR shows that he's good by bringing down a ball or two that isn't thrown right on target. Was this pass underthrown also? [video=youtube;ylkDWlrb-Tg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylkDWlrb-Tg&feature=channel_video_title[/video]
Brian Hartline have caught passes that are not thrown right on target. Not every wide receiver is 100%, however of the two Henne hurt Hartline more than Hartline hurt Henne.
When has he "gotten behind a defense" w/o play action, double move, of a flea flicker? I don't know what Gates will do for us, but I know he was drafted to add some speed to big play ability. Two things we were sorely lacking last year.
I have to agree, I have seen a heck of alot more misses from Henne to Hartline than Hartline has f'ed up Henne. How many times did Hartline break free behind the coverage last year only to have Chad checkdown to someone else. It seems that Chad was so terrified of making a mistake that he wouldn't even look downfield. You have to count those on Henne too.
I think it's also because Dolphins fans are familiar with him. Many of them simply get bored of players that have been around for more than one off-season, and that's considered a valid reason to change things.
Why retread an argument from May? Plus the reply was from "2nd sentence was turrible". How is that an argument staying together?
Do I need to post the video evidence again? I figured you had seen the "drops and fumbles" already. I'm curious as to how you could watch the games at least twice and not remember Hartline's fumble vs the Steelers.
I'm joking, actually. And to be honest, that joke stands up a whole lot better to scrutiny than basing my entire argument on being the first person to claim to watch film in any argument and then acting smug about it, so don't cast any stones there buddy.
My mistake, I didn't catch the joke. Those videos don't prove, nor were they meant to prove, anything other than what I originally said. SB claimed that PFF/NFL had Hartline down for 0 fumbles so I posted a vid of him fumbling. I posted the Bengals vid b/c no one remembers that play (b/c we won the game?) and everyone wants to bring up the Cleveland play (b/c we lost?) where Hartline was open and Henne missed him. Nothing smug about it.
hartline is good. Doesn't mean you can improve. What's wrong with more options if it doesn't involve picks.
Sure you can try to improve. Which is why nobody is complaining about drafting Gates. But ultimately this is a game of limited resources. I dont think they should be allocating much to that position right now.
So what you're saying is you agree he wouldn't start for half the league? He's not starting in Seattle over Mike Williams or Sidney Rice. Never gonna happen. Houston? Starting over Kevin Walter or Jacoby Jones is highly suspect. Chargers? He rides the bench in SD if we're talking about Michael Floyd. Oakland's offense prefers speed; Brian would likely sit behind Murphy, and he's not taking Jacoby Ford's job. Detriot's happy with Burlesone opposite Calvin. Not sure if Hart wins that job. Titans? Nate Washington scores TDs with similar production. Washington? Anthony Armstrong is emerging as a legitimate deep threat with 879 yards and a 20 avg. Hartline sits the bench. If Zona get Cromartie, Hartline isn't starting. On 2010 Jets, Hart is on the bench. Browns? Hart would have a hard time beating out Massaquio or the emerging Robiskie....... and if he does start, it's only a matter of time before Greg Little takes over. Buffalo? Doubtful he starts over Lee Evans in the Bills offense. Bengals? He wouldn't have started last year and would be fighting Jordan Shipley this year for a #2 role that neither deserve. Denver? Broncos have 1st rounder Demaryius Thomas and talented Eric Decker developing. Shortly, Hart will be sitting behind both. A year from now, Hart won't be the starter in Miami (once Gates becomes acclimated). I've said it many times---- Hart isn't a #2 but would make for a heck of a jack of all trades type guy #4.
Yep. I think Hartline is average or slightly above average. The idea what there's no need to look for better players at his position sends the message that average is where we want to be and I find that bothersome.