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Brian Hartline

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Southbeach, Aug 3, 2011.

  1. Ludacris

    Ludacris Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I'm ok with Hartine there but we need depth at flanker. After Hartline got injured last year, we used Bess at flanker who caught a lot of short passes but he's not going to stretch the field. Henne's production then took a dive. So what if it happens again...can Gates play flanker yet...can Roberto Wallace? If I was Ireland, I would prudently seek out a veteran WR to add as depth or better yet challenge Hartline's spot. You can never have enough good WRs imo.
     
  2. PhinsRock

    PhinsRock Premium Member Luxury Box

    Post of the month. :up:

    Frankly our biggest need is a seam busting pass catching TE far more than replacing Hartline.
     
  3. PhinishLine

    PhinishLine Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Outside of Dolphins diehards its pretty much "Brian who?"

    We are seriously going to try and will him to greatness.

    Sent from my Xoom using Tapatalk
     
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  4. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    Inside of Seattle people were like, "Walter, who?"

    I am not looking for Hartline to win a popularity contest. I want him because he plays good football.
     
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  5. Dee

    Dee New Member

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    Hartline's a good player. Except for left tackle, wide receiver is pretty much the position of least need on offense. We have enough wide receivers. We just need a better QB. As a No. 3 guy, Hartline is very solid. If Gates plays up to his potential, he could eventually move Hartline out to a No. 4 guy, which would be outstanding.

    But ultimately, quarterbacks make receivers a lot more than receivers make quarterbacks. Marshall's a great receiver, Bess is a very good receiver, and Hartline is a quality receiver as well. We just need Henne to make better decisions.
     
  6. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    You look really pretty in your avatar young lady. I hope you will post more often. :)
     
  7. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    What a #2 "should be" should be dependent on what kind of players you have at #1 WR, #1 TE, and slot WR. #2 requirements could drastically change from an Anthony Armstrong type to a Brian Hartline depending on what the team needs or is lacking. We're not lacking in move the chain type possession receivers; we ARE lacking speed and the ability to effectively stretch the field.

    If Hartline puts up 1000+ yards with 5-7 TDs, it's either b/c he injects some of Andre Johnson's DNA into him or because his presence allows teams to quintuple Marshall to where they could care less if Hartline has impressive statistics provided Miami doesn't see the endzone. Again, Hartline's individual performance is less important than the performance of our offense as a whole. If Hartline "looks good in the stat column" but the rest of the offense does worse b/c Brian's presence prevents us from being dynamic, then his stats don't mean a hill of beans.




    LOL. Now you're expecting him to put up 1k yards? I used 1k as an extreme to make a point that 1k for Brian would be less impacting to our offense than a legit vertical threat who totals 700 yards but allows players around him to maximize their potential.


    Perfect example: Eddie Royal.
    He hasn't gotten worse (despite what his stats would indicate). It's a known fact that for the past 2 years he's been used a good deal as a decoy to draw coverage to help open plays for guys around him. Would you rather have Eddie Royal with 980 yards & 5 TDs (rookie year) or 2010 Royal's 627 & 3 TDs with his presence helping Brandon Lloyd catch 1448 yards and 11 TDs (or Marshall hitting double digit TDs for the only time in his career the year before)? I could go on for days with these examples over history. Hartline inevitably will put up decent stats b/c defenses don't really care if his stats are good as long as Marshall isn't beating them; defenses understand Hartline isn't a playmaker, a scorer, so they can afford to give him 85 yards and likely no TDs if it means limiting Brandon. A DC is crazy to not approach it that way, and until we find a more threatening #2, defenses will continue doing so, and our offensive production will continue paying for it. Defenses do this trade-off in virtually every sport.

    Hartline opposite Marshall is like batting in front of Albert Pujols. Pitchers (defenses) are more concerned about Pujols beating them, so the batter in front will see more opportunities.

    Please tell me, just once, what about Hartline's skill set helps Marshall maximize his game potential? And why is it that you feel a #2 who defenses have to worry more about has no impact on our short-intermediate game with Marshall, Bess, Fasano, and Bush?

    Sorry, but yours is flawed. When will you understand that this is a team game, and it doesn't matter if Hartline's individual stats are better (or even if he's better) than someone else. I don't think his skill set is ordinary at all. His skill set is dissimilar to the other guys, but even though they're dissimilar, he's still a possession receiver.



    Let's make this simple; lets pretend the #2 spot is vacant
    .
    We have:
    A. Marshall who is an elite possession receiver.
    B. Bess who's a great possession receiver.
    C. Fasano who's a possession TE.
    D. #2 WR spot open.

    Considering A&B are NOT changing (b/c they're infinitely more important to the offense than D), and C isn't changing (b/c he's temporarily the only guy we have), find for D. Is the optimal candidate another solid possession receiver who lacks playmaking ability and isn't a threat to stretch the field?.... or is it a guy who compliments A, B, C, (and E, Quarterback)? Going after the guy compliments our offense the best isn't rocket science.

    -Andre Johnson has the downfield ability and speed to create his own mismatches; Marshall, not as much. Brandon needs more help from others to create space for him to make plays. Andre is the player he is b/c he can create his own separation and can routinely dominate defenders downfield w/o looking awkward at times in the process; Marshall is more of a short-intermediate guy; therefore he NEEDS help from others to ensure he catches these passes with room to run.
    -Andre has a playmaker in Jacoby Jones, so its OK to have a possession guy like Walter. Walter IStheir possession guy.
    How irrational are you going to make this?
    -Andre has outstanding TEs who can make plays and threaten the seam (hence draw more coverage); Brandon does NOT, and since Brandon frequently runs shorter routes, if TEs (or #2 WR) could draw more coverage from LBs & Safeties, Brandon would have less defenders draped over him upon reception; hence, he might actually tack on some YAC.

    However, since Brandon's NOT afforded a TE capable of such, and since Bess is NOT a slot receiver capable of such, that leaves ONE position available to help him out by creating more space...... the #2 spot, and Hartline doesn't qualify.




    If it's so bogus, why did we make speed such a priority this offseason? Nice of you to condense EVERYTHING that GM and I have stated down to "it's all about speed" in order to give your argument any sort of legs to stand on. There are plenty of 4.5 guys who can make plays down field and force defense to pay them respect; unfortunately Hartline ain't one..... and that's the problem.
    Talk about bogus. You really don't understand how positions impact each other do you? Maybe you should switch to golf or tennis where individual stats bear more significance.

    Yup, and the Eagles offense is scary BECAUSE of this speed and playmaking ability on the outside. Vick had a career year b/c of it, and LeSean McCoy is a better threat out of the backfield b/c of it. Jackson & Maclin help that offense to be extremely hard to defend. And your foolish to speak against it b/c if you've ever heard Vick talk about what DeSean's vertical ability does for the offense AND for Vick, you'd probably not be speaking such gibberish.

    And the plethora of NE possession receivers with no vertical threat still was NOT enough for Brady to beat NY b/c the Jets did NOT have to worry about defending the deep pass. These possession receivers posed such an obstacle that NE brought in OCHO CINCO (one of the best deep threats the past 10 years) to fill this void.

    Hey, but apparently you know more than the NFL personnel of successful teams. :glare:

    WHAT?!!!! Dropping big passes, not scoring, coughing up passes to defenders? That's considered "doing nothing but making plays"?!!! Have you watched any other football the past 10 years outside of Miami or Jax games? He's a decent to solid intermediate receiver who has little ability to make plays when the ball is in his hands and has little ability to make plays while the ball is in the air..... so please tell me how that's considered "doing nothing but making plays"? Doing a good job of getting open on short-intermediate routes does NOT making him a playmaker; it makes him a possession receiver.


    Oh yeah? and what are those 23897432948230942709 areas that are so readily available? That's a cop out excuse for you to rationalize that it's acceptable for Brian to be nothing more than average at his position b/c of your bias toward him. Why don't we let everyone be average while we're at it?.... We'll be a GREAT team then!!

    By the way, being complacent with average Hartline as a starter doesn't only affect the #2 WR spot, it brings down the performance of #1 WR, TE, Slot WR, QB, and ground game b/c the #2 WR spot is the ONLY position available that we can add the down field element to. Our front office understands this (hence the handful of 4.3 guys brought in), so why is this still so difficult for you to comprehend and accept? Is your affinity toward Hartline that great that his average play is immune to upgrading? Is your affinity that great that you'd sacrifice everyone else's potential just to keep Brian on the field?

    Really? And exactly WHO is preventing 3 guys from following Marshall down field while Hartline is being single covered bc teams aren't worried about Brian? Is it Fasano? Nope. Bess? Nope. Jake Long? Nope.

    Even if Marshall serves as a deep threat when he's running deep routes, WHO is serving as the deep threat during all of Brandon's short to intermediate routes? That's where he needs the most help.
     
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  8. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Especially if Dee........ ees boobies are really hers and not belonging to a guy trying to show off a nice rack like some idiots do.
     
  9. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    It's Kate Upton
     
  10. Aquafin

    Aquafin New Member

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    the poor house
    sorry, but Hartline doesnt scare anyone and people gave Chris Chambers grief and he mad way more spectacular catches and was faster and more athletic so i dont see why people are so high on a receiver that does not have the wow facter and players with the wow factor usually makes a big difference .


    on the flip side i will give Hartline more of a chance and I will root for him ; its just seems like people disliked a wr that made big plays while the other gets anointed as a great wr when he hasnt made the impressive plays that Miami needs to have to win the big games.
     
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  11. CitizenSnips

    CitizenSnips hmm.

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    ahem, touchdowns? I noticed you left that particular category out.
     
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  12. Dee

    Dee New Member

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    Uh, I'm not a woman. And that's Kate Upton.
     
  13. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Rdhstlr23,

    I suppose you're going to argue that it's merely a coincidence that we brought in:
    4.3 Gates
    4.3 Carter
    4.3 Bush
    4.3 Grigsby

    Now whyyyy would they do that? Do GM & I really have that much influence to where they feel compelled to pacify us? :lol:
     
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  14. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Welcome to ThePhins, Kate Upton imposter. lol.
     
  15. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    There's nothing wrong with rooting for him. People act as if WR is like LT and will never see the field if they're not starting.

    As a #4 he would still serve a valuable role.... an even more valuable role than he is at #2 WR.
    As a #2, Hartline is average.
    HOWEVER, as a #4, Hartline would be exceptional. We would have much more freedom on offense if he were our #4..... and as our #4 it would mean our depth is outstanding rather than the garbage depth we had last year. Look at the depth the Packers have at WR. Jordy Nelson would be our #2 here, but he was a #4 in GB, and they were better for it..... and guess what?---- he still contributed and helped them win a super bowl.

    Hartline as a #4 means we improved our #2 spot AND our depth. Why the mothergrabbin heck is that such a turn off for some people? I don't get it. what. so ever.
     
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  16. rdhstlr23

    rdhstlr23 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    So, the basis of your argument is that the role of the #2 WR is to draw coverage away from the #1 WR because he should offer a different skill set than that of the #1 WR?

    The problem here is that YOU view our players as move the chains guys. That's what I'm trying to tell you here. Brian Hartline's stats don't indicate that he is just a "move the chains" type of guy. He is a guy that provides chunk yardage. Again, the statistics SHOW that, every sense of the word. You've yet to debate what is true. You only debate what is your OPINION. Not to mention, you're pidgeon-holeing Brandon Marshall's ability. Brandon Marshall is another chunk yardage player. He has the ability to people people deep. He has the ability to gain YAC. All those things. And no, it's not because Brian Hartline's inability as a player or his skillset is the reason why Marshall didn't have nice YAC numbers.

    You love to pin EVERYTHING (a little more specific here - Dan Henning, the play-calling, the play design, the routes ran, etc.) on why Chad Henne's success was hindered. Yet, you fail to use that same logic and reasoning for other players. Is it so crazy to think that maybe our WR's were not utilized correctly? Is it crazy to think that the play-calling didn't help them out? No. Of course not. It's they are the problem. Not to mention, no merit is given to the idea that maybe, just maybe our 75.4 rated QB might have not given much help in that department either.

    BTW, Brian Hartline didn't need Andre Johnson's DNA injected in him or Brandon Marshall to be quintuple teamed to put up those numbers.

    Through 12 games, he averaged 51.2 ypg. In the 12th game vs. Cleveland he was injured the 1st QTR. If Brian Hartline isn't injured he's on his way to 1,000 yards. You extrapolate 615 yards by 11 games (because he hardly played in Game 12) and he's averaging 56 ypg. Average that out over 16 games and he's in line for a 900 yard season. But that doesn't tell the story because Hartline came out of the gates so poorly, which killed his season average. If you take the average of how he was playing hte last 6 games before he was injured (averaging 73 ypg), and average that over the last 4 games played, he breaks the 1,000 yard barrier or comes very close.

    Not to mention over those 6 games, he beat the hell out of Nnamdi Asmougha where no Brandon Marshall was present. He also posted fine games against NYJ, CIN, PIT, BAL, & CHI who all had fine pass defenses and players playing opposite of him.

    Please stop using the fact he didn't find the endzone to diminish his ability!!! If you're going to use that argument then I don't want here anymore excuses about why Chad Henne's TD numbers were so low. How can Brian Hartline score TD's when he's facing the same issues you say Henne is? Does he get more opportunities out of the Wildcat? Does he get more opportunities from playing for FG's? Does he get more opportunities from poor play-calling and play design? No. He doesn't.

    I mean shoot, the few opportunities he had at fades call his way, the ball isn't EVEN CLOSE to him. He isn't even allowed to make a play. So again, how can you diminish him by using that logic. That is faulty logic.

    Huh? Did you just say Hartline's offense is less important or imply that it isn't important? I'm sorry to tell you this bud, but Brandon Marshall will continue to see double coverage. So, it's absolutely important how well Brian Hartline performs in his opportunities. Someone is going to need to take advantage of those 1-on-1 match ups. Again, from every statistic that is provided, he did just that. And he did it better than most of the #2 WR's that you said were better. If Brian Hartline is making plays, how is he making the offense less dynamic?

    I agree that a vertical threat improves the big play threat of the offense. However, what you use to measure a big play threat is just incorrect. You use 40 yard dash times to consummate what a deep threat is. That's so far from the truth it's funny. Some guys utilize that speed, others are faster than their 40 times indicate.

    Not to mention, this whole nonsense that he only gets by on double moves, play action, etc. is so much hogwash. Ted Ginn is one of the fastest players in the game, yet Brian Hartline has more big plays than he does. Why is that? It's because he knows how to use his speed and he knows how to do a better job of getting open than Ginn does. And that isn't the only example. Brian Hartline is hands down better than Nate Washington in every statistical measurement except for a 40 yard dash.

    Also, while I'm on my soap box here, why is it satisfactory to use statistics such as 3rd down completion, red zone statistics, etc. to show Henne's aptitude as a player, but yet, statistics don't "mean a hill of beans" about Brian Hartline. Again, it's faulty logic. You're using a set of logic to defend a bias towards a player and yet don't use the same thing for another. I almost wish you'd just say you know what. I like Henne and I don't like Hartline. That's what it comes down to. It's nothing about the statistics you've shown. It's about your opinion. I'm just showing that their is absolutely NO CONSISTENCY in the logic to your arguments.

    It's a known fact that Eddie Royal has been used as a decoy? Show me anywhere I can read that. Show me a scout's assessment. Show me a press conference of Josh McDaniels stating that. Show me tape. Show me something. That sounds you completely pulling something directly out of your butt to prove a point, which by the way would be one of the only consistent things your arguments have shown.

    Eddie Royal is the reason Brandon Lloyd had a big season? Not because he was in a WR friendly offense, that has allowed Randy Moss & Brandon Marshall before him to enjoy the best seasons of their careers? Not because he had an adequate QB throwing him the football? Not because he was fortunate to play against some of the worst pass defenses in the league last year? Not because he was a complete no name headed into the season an no one gave a rat's butt about the guy? Not because his team was continually down in games, and teams played soft coverage against him? Not because he also was blessed with a little bit of talent?

    Not because any of those factors, but because Eddie Royal was being used as a decoy? I'll tell you this. Wes Welker sure wasn't used as a decoy in Josh McDaniels offense in 2007 & 2008. By the way, was it Eddie Royal being used as a decoy in 2009 that led to Brandon Marshall's big statistical lines? Because I'll tell you, Eddie Royal stunk in 2009 too. So, ya, he is declining.

    I dunno watching these highlight videos make me think these skills would complement A LOT of WR's in this league.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkqiBbSzTNE

    You're not telling me anything I don't know already. Of course defenses are more concerned about Brandon Marshall. And Brian Hartline has shown that he has been able to make big chunk yardage plays opposite of him. He's shown he's more than adequate. Again, debate the statistics he has against other #2 WRs I broke down and tell me otherwise.

    Why do you consider him a possession WR? Again, put Brian Hartline and all of his statistics against other players in his situation and he's been better than most. YOU categorize him as such because you don't see him go deep every play and because he doesn't run a sub 4.4. That's what YOU believe categorizes a deep threat. Yet, you criticize for Dan Henning not calling enough deep plays and Chad Henne not having enough chances to capitalize on plays down the field, but again you discredit Hartline for his lack of ability to go deep. Ever think maybe he didn't get a lot of those plays designed for him? Or not enough? Maybe the same way you believe Henne needs more attempts to be successful, Hartline needs more attempts to be successful? Again, use the same consistent logic. That's all I'm asking.

    I gotta tell ya. I think the problem with your reasoning is that YOUR scouting report on our players is completely different than that of everyone else's.

    I won't deny that Andre Johnson isn't a better WR than Marshall. But, what if any evidence at all, would suggest that Brandon Marshall doesn't have the capabilities of going deep and being dynamic there?

    You gave me all these great pieces that the Houston Texans offense has, and you've said how crappy our offense was in lacking playmakers, YET Brian Hartline has made more plays THAN ALL OF THEM! And that isn't just me pulling that out of my butt. That's actual factual statistics, past production to show that.

    Uh, speed and chunk yardage was a priority in 2010 too. That brought in the guy who you didn't think does that very well to do that. You know that guy that was clocked at 22.5 mph, and running a sub 4.4 now and has shown, other than last year, every single measurement available to us that he does have the ability to beat teams deep. That guy named Brandon Marshall.

    http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/20...davone-bess-talented-receivers-miami-dolphins

    If you'd read my reasoning of using the Eagles as a basis of point, you'd understand. You said that you bring in players with different skill sets to maximize the total strength of your offense. They have the same guy, as you agreed above. They have nothing but speed, yet they are still incredibly dynamic. The opposite is said of the NE Patriots. They were incredibly dynamic without that "deep/speed" threat.

    BTW, don't diminish the incredible offense of the NE Patriots because they didn't win a Super Bowl. They ran into a team that had the ability to match up well against them. To say because a particular team beat them on that day as a way to discredit one of the best offensive years ever in football is so ridiculous.

    I don't know more than successful teams because apparently I don't watch NFL rewind where all I can see is one camera shot of a play. I guess I need to watch that 16 times when it shows me nothing about how a play was opening up, who might have been open, where the reads were etc. Because yup, a TV angle shows all of that and we can see all of that from angle.

    If he's a possession WR, than why does he have more big plays than most of the players that are in his position? Why? Please. Answer me that. Again, YOU view him as that. But that statistics SHOW YOU ARE WRONG. He does make plays. He is capable of making a guy miss here and there. He is capable of getting behind a defender for a deep play. He does run very precise routes.

    You act like all he does is drop balls the way Chad Henne sucks balls. Again, couldn't be further from the truth.

    Again, more with the scoring. I just need to stop with this because it's such a profoundly ridiculous argument that you make against him, but yet make for Henne in his defense that it no longer deserves my time.
     
  17. rdhstlr23

    rdhstlr23 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    You're seriously going to tout guys that might not even make the roster? Grigsby and Carter UDFA's are now supposed to be reasons to improve the offense? This organization has done it every year since they came here. 2010 is no different. Because they want to add speed that means Hartline is incapable.

    Well I can tell you right from the horse's mouth that your view of Brian Hartline doesn't match up with what the team's view is.

    http://blogs.palmbeachpost.com/thed...-miami-dolphins-from-the-nfl-owners-meetings/

    EDIT: So if Grigsby & Carter are cut or moved to the practice squad will that mean they don't view speed as that important? C'mon now dude. You love to reach, speculate, and pull your own bias into making it truth. Unfortunately, you're wrong.
     
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  18. rdhstlr23

    rdhstlr23 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    So Brian Hartline should be scoring Touchdowns from the non-throws Henne is making?
    Chad Henne is exonerated from low TD totals due to being asked out from the Wildcat, poor play-calling, poor play design, and a poor offensive scheme, but Brian Hartline is not?

    Again, I don't get.
     
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  19. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    Miami has done that EVERY YEAR. This might be the first year it was done with a 4th round pick.
     
  20. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    If that's all you have on Hartline being a vertical threat then you have problems. lol.
    Uhhhh, so with all our needs we take Gates, the fastest receiver in the draft, with our 3rd pick? Keep trying to pull that wool buddy. :tongue2:

    And what is it that our GM, Ireland, said? (you know---- the guy responsible for actually bringing the players in)

    For once, please stop avoiding the question and list in detail why for the love of god Hartline is a bona fide vertical threat.
    I've yet to see you or anyone support this notion. I don't want stats like yards per catch which are misleading in this case, and I don't want "well, there was that one time he beat a rookie corner in single coverage".





    And by the way, Tony speaks up about all his players in case you haven't noticed. Saying "I think the guy's been behind players a bunch of times" isn't necessarily a vote of confidence. "Think" can imply uncertainty.

    Now if he said, "Brian's a blazer and routinely beats single coverage deep"..... or "Teams have such a hard time staying with Hartline deep that they have to pay him extra attention which really opens up opportunities for Marshall & crew"....... yeah, then you'd be onto something. You see the difference there?

    Listen to other coaches, players, and QBs talk about their deep threats. It's entirely different than the fluffed up stuff Tony said about Brian.
     
  21. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    I like the way you use 3rd pick, instead of 4th round.
     
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  22. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    EXACTLY!!!

    Dolfans defend Hartline tooth and nail. But what NFL defense comes into a game vs Miami thinking "We've got to stop Hartline this week"?

    What Dolfan goes into a game thinking "Hartline is going to SHRED DB X who's going to be covering him this week"?

    I'm listening.
     
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  23. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    lol..
     
  24. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Uhhh... so just how many picks would they have to do it with to satisfy you? 14? Our 3rd pick's not enough evidence? So what you're saying is we have NOT done it every year despite your terrible attempt to make it seem like we have? The draft picks are where the "effort" is implied.

    Hartline over-drafted in 4th round in 09. Hartline insufficiently acting as #2 WR in 2010. Gates drafted in 2011. I see some chronology there.



    Surely with the 2355456675444 other holes that you mentioned we have, there's no reason for us to use our 3rd pick of the draft on a WR!!! Unless..... no.... it cant be....... we want him to supplant Hartline.

    Let's see----- It's the 4th round and we're on the clock.... tick tock tick tock: QB? nope.... LG? nope... RT? nope... Another RB? nope... Pass rusher? Nope... Nickel CB? Nope..... SS?. Nope....... ILB? Nope..... TE? Nope.
    Speedy, playmaking WR to replace Hartline? DING DING DING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
     
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  25. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    the most beautiful dumpling I've ever seen..seriously, if some of you dont know who she is, google her, ridiculously delicious.
     
  26. RoninFin4

    RoninFin4 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Exact same could be said about the Dolphins quarterback position.
     
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  27. dolfan22

    dolfan22 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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  28. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    It is the fourth round. Doesn't really back up your evidence. No team picks a wide receiver in the 4th round hoping he becomes the #2 wide receiver.

    Every year Miami has picked up sub 4.5 receivers. The only difference is this year they used a 4th round pick. That is not saying much.

    I didn't mention any big numbers of holes Miami had. In fact using the 4th round pick is good enough to want to supplant Moore or Wallace and have a solid 4th receiver/kick returner. Perfect place to draft a 4th receiver/kick returner is the 4th round.
     
  29. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    They say much worse about the quarterback position. They say Miami is dumb for not trading for a mediocre quarterback.
     
  30. Anonymous

    Anonymous Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Wow. Can't believe some of the arguments against Hartline.
    .
    Also, what does it say about Henne when the regime tried replacing him three, if not four, times?
     
  31. RoninFin4

    RoninFin4 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Didn't really mean it in that regard, but that does fit as well. Frankly, I'm glad they didn't trade for Kyle Orton. But I think Jeff Ireland and Tony Sparano have failed to develop him properly, and I think they've made poor moves with regard to the offensive side of the ball. The last thing I want is another 7-9 season with a middle of the first round draft pick, but I think that's exactly what we're staring at thanks to how good the defense is. Marc Colombo, Reggie Bush, not getting Bradshaw or an athletic LG...just more wrong to go along with the QB spot.
     
  32. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    To sum up your entire post:
    The role of the #2 WR is to contribute to the greatest overall success & good of the offense as possible. Period. If he's NOT doing that, he needs to be replaced. You can twist it however you want with your silly games, but it doesn't change a thing.

    If the overall success of the team means having your #2 act as a decoy threat deep so you're NUMBER ONE and INFINITELY MORE SIGNIFICANT WR has a better chance to make plays and help the offense, then you better damn well believe that's what needs to be done.

    If it means he shovels pigeon **** b/c Tyson's flock took a massive detour, then that's what needs to be done. His individual stats mean ****.

    The #2 will still get his stats, but he certainly does NOT take precedence over an elite player.

    How much is Hartline being paid? How much is Marshall being paid? Who's the elite NFL receiver of the 2? It sure as heck isn't Hartline. He doesn't mean anything in the grand scheme of things. We're certainly not building a team around him.

    Hartline is a complimentary piece.... which means---- he's replaceable is he isn't COMPLIMENTING. Any year, every year..... he's replaceable if a team actually puts in the effort to do so. This year we put in the effort; by next year he'll be the #4 where he can improve us. If you want to hold up the progress and success of the offense so that your precious Hartline can get his stats thanks to playing in the shadow of an elite player, then have at it.

    If we were a team full of vertical threats and poor route runners and actually needed a possession receiver to balance them out and provide some dependability, then by all means, bring him in........ but we are NOT that team. We have enough dependability regarding route running etc with Marshall & Bess. Having any more dependability than that takes a massive backseat to adding a guy who can open up the field and create space for the guys higher up on the totem pole.

    You're line of thinking, that our offensive players are completely separate entities & one's play doesn't influence the other, is complete hogwash.
     
    dolfan22 likes this.
  33. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    He was our 3rd pick.... meaning only 2 guys went before him.... meaning if we wanted to upgrade another position even worse, we had only 2 chances to do so instead of 3.

    "3rd pick" is a more accurate measure than "4th round pick" regarding Ireland's wants or needs when we do NOT have a 3rd round pick.
     
  34. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    Since Todd & I are the same person I feel qualified to speak here. No one is saying that Hartline is incapable. We're pointing out some weaknesses that we perceive in hi game, that it. Grigsby, Carter, Gates, Clay, etc. shouldn't be viewed as knocks on Hartline they should be viewed, IMO, as additions to the offense. Regardless of whether the rooks pan out there will still be a role for Hartline on this team. I'm just saying that it'd be nice if we were not as dependent on Hartline was we were last year, that would mean we've gotten better as a team and I think we're all in favor of that.

    Let's assume that all of our Rooks, Pouncey included, fail to make the roster. What does that mean? Does it mean that our FO wasn't trying to add a boost to the interior OL & some speed and play making as we've suggested? IMO it would mean that we tried and failed to do those things. If we trot Henne out there for Week 1 does that mean that the fans are morons and that FO doesn't view upgrading the QB position as a priority?

    You speak of speculation and bias but what better evidence is there for what the FO's plan was than the current roster of the team? You say we're wrong but if you want to set aside the expert opinions of mere fans like us and take a look at the depth chart, draft picks, acquisitions and coaching staff additions for this year you may have to pause and reconsider.
     
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  35. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    Excellent point.

    Not sure who's being exonerated though. Most of this forum is screaming for Henne to be replaced while opining that we're all set at Hartline's position.

    I don't get it either.
     
    ToddsPhins likes this.
  36. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    Every year with who?

    Marshall? Bess? Hartline? Turner? Wilford? Camarillo? London? Moore? Wallace? Fasano? Mastrud? Epps? Haynos? Shuler? Ronnie? Ricky? Lex? Polite? LMAO. All speed burners, in high school maybe.

    Sheets blew his Achilles out, Ginn was traded away for a beer and a pizza, so was Booker. Where exactly was this perennial effort to acquire speed?
     
    ToddsPhins likes this.
  37. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    You are correct sir. And yet we're discussing Henne's replacement ad nauseum despite the dearth of quality replacements while claiming that Hartline is damn near untouchable even while clear upgrades sit on the open market. Curious.
     
    ToddsPhins likes this.
  38. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Brian "isn't" a move the chains guy b/c we already have 2 elite move-the-chains guys on the roster who own the **** out of that honor.
    He's a 1st & 2nd down type. (which would be fine in this offense IF we already had a reliable vertical threat and seam busting TE that he could compliment).

    On 1st down, we want to be running or having the potential to blow up a defense deep (not throwing an intermediate pass to Hartline). Why sell yourself short for the intermediate pass when you can bring in someone who excels at stuff 20 yards further down field? Doesn't make sense to me.
    On 2nd down, same as 1st down above.

    Brian doesn't provide chunk yardage. Where is this coming from? An occasional chunk play doesn't qualify as "providing chunk yardage". Being a solid receiver from the 10-20 yard range who averages 14 YPC is nothing comparable to a guy who gives defensive backs nightmares in the 35+ range.

    Is Anthony Armstrong a better overall receiver than Hartline? Probably not...... but he's productive and effective b/c DBs have a hard time staying with him. Santana Moss had an outstanding year and led the league in YAC at age 31. Coincidence?
    Armstrong's 20 YPC and legit down field ability??? That's chunk yardage. That's opening up the field for teammates to make plays.
     
  39. Dee

    Dee New Member

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    Well, QB is a slightly more important position to fill than the No. 2 or No. 3 receiver, so naturally people will place a bit more importance on that.
     
    Bpk likes this.
  40. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    What round was Hartline drafted in again?
     

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