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Brian Hartline

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Southbeach, Aug 3, 2011.

  1. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    No. all that would mean is there aren't many spots available after 4.3 deep threat Gates makes it.
     
  2. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    SO says the media.

    How many times has Henne been replaced? One less than Henning, Brown, Ricky, Wilson, Ginn, Pasqualoni, Porter, Ayodele, Allen, White, Turner, Roth, Crowder, and whoever else you want to name. 2 less than Taylor, actually.

    At what point do we ignore perception and go with the facts?
     
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  3. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Uhhh.... Hartline should be making plays on his own. That's what playmakers do. (you know--- amidst the 100+ other times the ball is thrown his way)

    Nice argument--- deflect it to Henne and avoid all the reasons why Hart isn't a legit downfield threat.

    Nope, but he SHOULD be scoring or converting on throws that Henne DOES make but he drops.

    So tell me----- How's Hartline's game as a fade guy? Reliable receiver you want to throw jump balls to?
     
  4. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    Great post.

    Please, all you Hartline lovers, please listen to this idiot ex GM talk about our offense. Man he's off his rocker.
     
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  5. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    we'd never do something so low down and despicable would we Todd? ;)
     
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  6. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    yeah, I care way more about the QB position.

    It impacts wins more than whoever is #3 or 4 at receiver.

    If Hartline's not playing it's because he was beaten out by someone playing BETTER. that would be good news for us.
     
  7. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    Perfect name, Upton, because she makes certain parts stand up and take notice.
     
  8. Dee

    Dee New Member

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    I'm anxious to see if Gates can be that guy to be the outside speed threat. I'm not convinced he can't be that guy. Other than Randy Moss, who out there are we going to get at this point to be a prime deep threat on the outside?
     
  9. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Rdhstlr, DolDupree, Anonymous, Stringer,...........

    would you guys care to explain the difference between a receiver who occasionally gets open deep b/c he runs good routes (and b/c he gets less attention thanks to his elite teammate) and one who is a bona fide vertical threat every game all game no matter who is on the field with him?
     
  10. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    Wednesday's practice

    Brian Hartline: Hartline had the greatest practice so far in training camp. He totaled 6 catches for 136 yards and 2 TD’s. Brian received quite a nice ovation from the fans as he walked from the field onto the sidelines for autographs.
     
  11. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Well, when Hartline poses little threat, I guess they wouldn't be all too worried about the guy getting him the ball. :shifty:
     
  12. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    Congrats to him. That's twice as many TDs as he scored all of last season. The equivalent of Henne throwing 30 TDs in practice today. Woopey.
     
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  13. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    <starting at the 10:00 mark (with Joe Thiesmann)>



    straight from the mouth of the HOF QB himself:


    Anyone wanna play Who's Smarter Than a HOF QB? :lol:
     
  14. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    EXACTLY!!! :sidelol:

    you're making an argument for Hartline yet you start it with this? :sidelol:


    Hartline's a 4th round receiver. :sidelol:


    Remind me to never hire you as a defense attorney. :sidelol:


    Oh man... my side hurts. This is the accidentally funniest **** I've read all year. :sidelol:
     
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  15. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    On topic please. This is a thread about Hartline/#2 WR position.
     
  16. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    speak for yourself.
     
  17. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    added:
    I care about every position. To think about all the talk surrounding who's playing LG, RG, or RT despite the general talent being similar to Hartline's........... makes you wonder how Brian has become the Godfather of the #2 WR spot.
     
  18. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    so what you're saying is Henne had a good day? :shifty:
     
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  19. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    If you need a defense attorney you have 3 choices, Denny Crane, Alan Shore, or our very own Frayser who may be Alan Shore in disguise.
     
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  20. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    I guess Davis and Smith had the day off.:shifty:
     
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  21. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    If Henne did that the limber dick c*********s would still boo him.
     
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  22. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    I like Frayser so that works for me......... now I just have to ask Kenny Britt how to perpetrate an unsuccessful crime.
     
  23. finfansince72

    finfansince72 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Hartline is a pretty good WR, I think the thought by a lot of people is that we basically need a deep threat and while Hartline is a good WR he might not be the deep threat to completment Marshall and Bess. I don't see the problem with thinking we might need a different type of WR, that isn't a knock on Hartline just saying that the offense might need a different type of player. I think we good at WR but I do think if we had a speed WR that could really challenge down the field, and if we had an offense that threw deep......that it would open up a lot of things.
     
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  24. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    I'm not sure were you're going with this, but Hartline is the latter, not the former.
     
  25. rdhstlr23

    rdhstlr23 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    You're right. Jeff Ireland and Tony Sparano don't have the same thoughts on Brian Hartline. So, because Jeff Ireland, who conducts 3 interviews a year, doesn't speak about that position and Hartline in particular it means he doesn't have the same beliefs? I'm sure Tony Sparano isn't feeding the media many of the same words and thoughts Ireland and Sparano share about Brian Hartline.

    What is your idea of a bona fide threat? You want someone to just run verticials all day long? You think that is what spacing is? You think that is what is going to help create opportunities for this team? Why isn't Ted Ginn on this team? Why wasn't the passing offense significantly better in 2009 as compared to 2010 then? Why have the Raiders never done a thing with their umpteen-billion 4.2 guys (until modest success last year)?

    The problem is, your view of a bona fide deep threat is someone that exerts 4.4 speed or better. You have an finite view on what can be considered a deep threat. If you're asking is Brian Hartline going to run down the sideline every play and beat his man consistently? No. There isn't a single player in the league that does it. Mike Wallace, DeSean Jackson are some of the best at it, but they set those routes up with other routes they run. But, hell, you watch the games of every single team and I'm sure that NONE of their big plays are due to play-action fakes, double moves, etc.

    I'm not avoiding the question at all. I've showed you time and time again on why I believe Hartline is a vertical threat. His productivity (statistical measurements) match that. He's shown to be capable of making big plays in the passing game, moreso than other players that have a better 40 time (all that can be found in the MSW thread, which you did a wonderful job of ducking after proof was shown that 40 yard dash time isn't the sole indicator to big play success).

    Do I need to break down every play to show his ability to beat a CB? I mean, here is my problem.

    It's not even so much about the argument about the player anymore. It's just I'm tired of seeing how terrible and inconsistent this logic is. I'm not understanding how it's not easy to see.

    It's not even so much about the argument of the player. It's that you have this twisted, warped, inconsistent logic that allows you to use it in favor of a player, and then COMPLETELY change it to favor another opinion of yours. I'd just wish there would be some ingenuity here and just say. You know what, "I like this player X". "I don't like this player Y". And stop pulling these stats out to prove one thing, and then disregarding them in another sense.

    In this thread here: http://www.thephins.com/forums/show...ered-by-Jags/page6&highlight=mike+sims+walker

    You continually talk about the #2 needing to make plays, be dynamic and production. Notice, I've used all of those words to describe Brian Hartline and now it's coming down strictly to a vertical threat. Again, you're pigeon holing the argument to try and come off as a win.

    You pull out all of these odd-ball statistics that you've broken down to support your case for Chad Henne. Yet, I give you the simplest of numbers to support Brian Hartline as being dynamic and his capability of making a big play and you throw it out that statistics aren't verifiable in this sense.

    You say his inability to score TD's makes the case for his ineffectiveness. Yet, Henne is aided by the fact he doesn't have enough chances. Do you realize the line of irrationality here?? I mean I really feel like a High School Freshman can follow this. It's a simple, if then statement. If Chad Henne isn't afforded opportunities to score TD's, then neither is Brian Hartline.

    Are you seriously going to go there with Tony Sparano? You're seriously going to use the word "think" against Brian Hartline in this sense? When has Tony Sparano ever said anything remotely close to what you said above?

    Tony Sparano is known for continually saying "think", "ya know", "listen", it's all a part of his northern drawl. To use that against Brian Hartline is one of the funniest and farthest stretches you've insinuated in your argument against Hartline.
     
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  26. rdhstlr23

    rdhstlr23 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    What #2 WR paired with a dynamic #1 WR is going to receive all the attention from a defense? I mean seriously. Aren't we getting a little ridiculous? Of course teams aren't saying that to themselves.

    But you know what? Teams weren't saying we've got to stop Reggie Wayne this week either. No, their concentration was on Marvin Harrison. You think teams are saying "We've got to stop Malcolm Floyd this week?" No. They're worried about Antonio Gates or Vincent Jackson (when he played).

    I'm sure Dolfans didn't think Brian Hartline would put up 75 yards as the it's-of-facto #1 WR going up against Nnamdi Asmougha all day long?
     
  27. rdhstlr23

    rdhstlr23 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    That isn't the whole point of my post. The point is that Brian Hartline, when you compare his production levels and his abilities to other players, is an average to above average player in his position. And we even forget the fact, he's only played 2 years!

    Haha! I mean all this chalk talk about Chad Henne needs 3 years, yet Brian Hartline improves in two years and shows the ability to make big plays and an upgrade is needed?

    Would I love to watch DeSean Jackson & Jeremy Maclin suit up on Sundays for Miami? Absolutely. Would I love to see a duo like Marvin Harrison & Reggie Wayne? Sure. However, you don't need that to be a successful offense, nor do you need that for your #1 WR to be able to make plays every game.

    I haven't even uttered the word that Brian Hartline should take precedence over Marshall. Again, that's you just rambling off on a tangent trying to prove another ridiculous point with some round-a-bout way of looking things.

    The rest of that is you just talking to talk and making pure prognostications. So, have it hoss.
     
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  28. miamiron

    miamiron There's always next year

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    1 touchdown in 2010
     
  29. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    And Brandon Marshall only had 3 touchdowns. See a common denominator here?
     
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  30. rdhstlr23

    rdhstlr23 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    It's cute you come to his defense. He's a big boy. He can speak for himself. You're a big boy, you can have your own opinons.

    YOU may not be saying Hartline is incapable. HE is saying he is. He's said that he isn't fast enough to be a deep threat. He's said he isn't productive enough as a player oppositive Brandon Marshall. He's said that he isn't worthy of his current standing on the team--should be a rarely utlized #4 WR. He said his production doesn't mean anything because as a complimentary player he should basically be washing the jock of Brandon Marshall. He's said his physical limitations mean he isn't able to provide anything other than being a possession WR. He's said his statistics and past production levels put up against other players in his position (#2 WRs or players with faster 40 times than he) doesn't mean anything because they are misleading and again stats/production aren't important because they take away opportunities from other players.

    He said nothing of what you said.

    C'mon dude. You don't have to be that naive to try and prove a point. Obviously the Miami Dolphins drafted Mike Pouncey that high to specifically fill a need.

    Nic Grigsby & Patrick Carter coming in as UDFA aren't a deviation from anything Jeff Ireland has done in the past. He continually tries to bring in speed that way. To show the signing of those two guys means we're doing this over-emphasize the speed thing is exaggerated.

    The Dolphins have tried to increase the team speed/play-making ability/chunk yardage of their offense since 2009. They talk about it every postseason. Funny thing is, Brian Hartline was one of those additions to improve that. You know what? He has. And every statistic indicates that.

    Absolutely the additions were made with the intention to improve the speed of the offense, the dynamic ability of it. But, why does it have to be assumed that it's at the expense of Brian Hartline? Again, that's just a pure assumption? Has he lost his starting WR position? Have I missed something there?

    Again, an incorrect, purely speculative if then statement. If Clyde Gates was drafted to improve the speed, then it means Brian Hartline wasn't providing that.
     
  31. rdhstlr23

    rdhstlr23 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I don't think a whole lot of the fault that people see with Henne is that he didn't throw more TD's. I don't want to get into Henne here, but my position, is that he hasn't shown the ability to make certain plays. Again, don't want to go there because I know how easy it is to turn the subject.
     
  32. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    Is Brandon Lloyd and his 4.52 speed fast enough to be a deep threat??? :confused:
     
  33. mbmonk

    mbmonk I have no clue

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    When the Patriots defense doubles our #1 and #3 receivers and leave #2 singled up then it says 'something'.

    But that 'something' could be that Henne plays favorites in his progressions and stays with Marshall and Bess longer than others. It's isn't a 100% conclusion that Hartline can't beat a CB. Which I think he can actually :)

    BTW, I am late to the discussion so forgive me if this has been mentioned.
     
  34. rdhstlr23

    rdhstlr23 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Hahahaha. Brian Hartline isn't a move the chains guy because we have two already? Is that seriously you're reasoning on why he isn't?

    I mean I didn't even call him that, but the response is priceless.

    He offers more things than moving the chains.

    Uh, did you seriously just overlook the half page novel you responded to of mine that directly showed the amount of 20+/40+ yd plays of his in comparison to the other players you said were more dynamic and better at his role than him? Go check it out. It's a good read. You'll find he's better than everyone but two (I think off the top of my head) of the 11 players you listed. In terms of providing 20+ or more yard plays.

    He averaged 14.3 ypg in 2010 & 16.3 ypg in 2009. I'd say averaging that every touch is pretty solid.

    You're idea of what a home run or good/chunk play is so off base. You do realize that those intermediate 15-25 yard plays are chunk yardage right? I mean a 20 yd gain is 1/5 of the way to a TD. In most cases, it puts you 2 more 1st downs away from points. That's pretty sizeable chunk yardage.

    Not every PA pass is going to be intended to go over the top. Plenty of guys, like Hartline has shown, do fine running posts, deep dig routes, etc. and run a little after the catch. That's not selling yourself short. That's running a formidable offense.
     
  35. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Hartline seems to me to be essentially Camarillo...I say that based purely on what I saw when watching him. I am of the opinion that Hartline is good...but I really thinkhe's better suited to be a #3 or #4 receiver, not a #2. He is definitely upgradeable. Someone with more speed would definitely be better as the #2 receiver. If Ginn didn't have so many drops, he probably wouldn't have been traded. It wasn't like he never got open...he was just so unreliable when he was open.
     
  36. rdhstlr23

    rdhstlr23 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Bahahahaha, so you just completely throw that to the way side. Whatever dude. I think to the masses I've done a pretty good job of showing how completely inconsistent and ridiculous your logic is when evaluating the two.

    It really comes down to - Chad Henne has a strong arm - Good prospect for you. Brian Hartline doesn't run a sub 4.4 not a good #2 WR.

    Hey it's cool. It'd just be a lot easier on my fingers if you'd come out with it.

    By the way, Where did you see Brian Hartline had 100 chances?

    He had 77 attempted plays to get the ball into his hands last year.

    http://www.kffl.com/player/18206/nfl/utilization/brian-hartline

    Oh and by the way on Brian Hartline's drops:

    Brian Hartline improved in his second season, catching 43 passes for 615 yards (14.3 ypc) and 1 TD in 12 games, including a 98-yard performance against Tennessee. … Hartline ranked 14th in fewest dropped passes (4) among 63 receivers who played at least 50 percent of his team’s stats.

    http://blogs.palmbeachpost.com/thed...dolphins-position-breakdown-–-wide-receivers/

    But ya, keep em coming.
     
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  37. rdhstlr23

    rdhstlr23 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    So he knows more than our own Coach? I love how this is just completely thrown out, because he says the word think. Yet an ex-GM evaluator knows more. Is his opinion, worthy? Absolutely. Would I consider it more worthy and our own Head Coach? Who still has a job?

    http://blogs.palmbeachpost.com/thed...-miami-dolphins-from-the-nfl-owners-meetings/
     
  38. rdhstlr23

    rdhstlr23 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Maybe our current head coach? Maybe our current GM? Maybe Bill Parcells? Maybe guys that actually are involved in player acquisition?

    http://blogs.palmbeachpost.com/thed...-miami-dolphins-from-the-nfl-owners-meetings/
     
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  39. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    Clean and Todd, sounds like you feel Hartline's production is mainly a function of how Henne plays and, I'm extrapolating now, other factors outside of himself like whether BMarsh draws coverage away. Am I wrong?

    I think Hartline makes a pretty good #4 WR in the Brandon Stokely kinda mold. I don;t see him as a bona fide #2 either. He does get past some people, but until he has a QB that can maximize those instances when the less athletically-gifted Hartline actually beats someone deep with his technique (headfakes, hand-fighting off the jam, etc) it's pretty much a waste.

    A bona fide #2 will have the speed to go over the top of the defense every single play, and the defense KNOWS it. With Hartline, he SOMETIMES manages to, and there's the difference.

    Defenses don't respect that enough to actually adjust to it.

    The only way they would if if our QB had such GREAT field vision, command and recognition that defenses knew that even if Hartline only got free deep 4 times in a game, the QB would definitely hit him at least 3/4 of those times. If hartline plays with Brady, he gets more deep valls when he 'beats' his defender.

    Henne simply is too pinned down in his foxhole, I guess, to notice some of hartline's few deep jailbreaks, so the defense isn;t punished. Thus, they aren;t scared of Hartline.

    Get us a guy who LIVES behind the defense. Who is so fast, he is a deep option on almost every play, so Henne will notice at least a couple times a game. THAT woul force defenses to play us more honestly.
     
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  40. rdhstlr23

    rdhstlr23 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    You want me to explain the difference between a receiver that occasionally gets open deep vs. a bona fide vertical threat?

    So you want me to explain the difference between Ted Ginn & Brian Hartline? The guy who doesn't have a job and the other that has a job?

    See again your problem is your obsessed with this idea that Brian Hartline needs to have sub 4.4 speed to compliment Bess & Marshall. It's wrong because how you view Brandon Marshall & Brian Hartline is incorrect.

    They both display the ability to get behind guys and be able to own the intermediate parts of the field. That isn't a bad thing. That doesn't mean they aren't complimentary either. It's not as simple as, one short, one intermediate, one long. That doesn't always create this space. If it was that easy, EVERY team would do it. They don't. That was the reason for speaking about the Eagles & the Patriots. They understand it's about mismatches and creating players within the system.

    Brian Hartline can beat people deep. He can run by them. Can he do it like Gates? Probably not. Like Ginn? Probably not. Can he do it effectively when called in? Sure can. Quotes from players and coaches reverberate that. Statistics reverberate that. What doesn't? The fact he ran higher than a 4.4, which is all you care about. And your past post history indicates that. Thing is? Brandon Marshall can do the same. Can he fly by guys 4-5 yards? Probably not. Can he get enough of a edge to be able to go up and make the play? Absolutely. With his increased speed this year, you'll see it even more.

    Also deep threats aren't guys that just run 9 routes. They're guys that can make special plays from intermediate routes. They're guys that can take a screen pass to the house. They're guys that can take an end around 25+ yards. Those are dynamic players. Those are productive players. Those are players that add positive plays to your team. I'll take those all day, while you fill them with 4.3 guys. Hell, go take the Raiders.
     

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