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Comparing Atlanta to Miami in some key areas that affect wins, losses, & QB play

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by ToddsPhins, Aug 8, 2011.

  1. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    I think that's where most objective analysts are. Unfortunately, the number of simple minds that can't understand the simple differences between team sports and individual accomplishments are far more numerous. You would think that there would be fewer such simpletons among fans of a team that has Marino in their history since he's the poster child for a great QB on not good enough teams. But I guess some people can't learn no matter how obvious the lessons are.
     
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  2. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    In regards to the bold part, what do you say then about Left Tackle? You can solve the QB spot with one pick. You can throw picks and money at the Offensive Line and get nowhere like our team. Average QBs or below Average QBs win superbowls a lot less than Elite LT's do. You have to back to Baltimore (which also had an average QB) to find one. Since then crap Left Tackles are on the winning side of the super bowl. As much as you want to devalue the QB in the team concept, LT's are even further down. guys like Max Starks, David Diehl (who never played the position before and slid over from LG), Chad Clifton (who's about the best one to win it in a while), Jerrod Bushrod. Tarik Glenn. These are your super bowl winning LT's. Matt Light and Clifton are the best out of that sorry bunch.

    This is how the steelers feel about the LT position. The Steelers have had ONE pro bowl LT since 1969. Marvel Smith in 2004. They've drafted ONE LT int he first round since 1969.

    Now I know you didn't say a word about the LT position, but I seized on your statement. Because we were deciding between an LT and a QB. We WE were, not the FO maybe. If you only had one draft pick, and it was guaranteed to be elite, you pick a QB. Of course you can win with an average or below average QB. But then the rest of your game has to be playing at elite levels. An elite QB doesn't allow you to neglect anything, but it makes it easier across the rest of the team. Winning the SB is still a crapshoot, but I'd rather go into that crapshoot with an elite or very good QB.
     
  3. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Definitely! I'm dyin to see some fireworks this year, too. It's sad when our 2 biggest offensive plays of 2010 came against the Raiders------ 1 on a short pass to Moore...... and the other on a run by Ricky when the game was already over.
     
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  4. REAL TALK!

    REAL TALK! Banned

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    I don't want the 17th best QB running my team. REAL TALK!
     
  5. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    :lol:

    Nope, I'm a monk. lol.
     
  6. schmolioot

    schmolioot Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I have great respect for you Raf, but this is a little harsh, don't you think?

    I mean, I understand that scheme, teammates, etc., all go into a QB's performance, but Matt Ryan has thus far been a far superior QB. His numbers bear it out.

    Ryan's rookie year far outpaces anything Henne has ever done in this league and Henne had the year to sit and elarn from a consumate professional which theoretically should have helped him.

    Even in Ryan's "sophmore slumo" he threw 22 TD's and had a rating slightly above 80.

    His career rating is 86.7. He's really good. You may think that Henne has the ability to play this well and maybe he does, but he hasn't shown it yet.

    And Ryan's coordinator is Mike Mularkey who we ran out of town and thought was horrible.
     
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  7. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Simple minds? Heh. What is a team made of but a bunch of individuals accomplishments together. nice to see you insult anyone who disagrees with the premise calling them simpletons.

    How about we don't buy that argument. Here is a very simple argument. You throw more INT's than TD's you are not that good. What was it about the bad team that made Henne throw balls into the dirt? What was it about the bad teams that had Henne throw a wounded duck into the arms of a defender? he had a pretty good running game in 2009 so we say oh but it's his first year starting.

    Marino played on some not great teams but he played well for the most part. So we can have that discussion about not winning while playing well. Now the argument you are trying to extend is that bad team play made the QB played bad. Sure. If we had a sample size of Henne playing really well for a year. But we don't.

    So while you're on your perch with your chin up looking down on all of us, I'm down here laughing because while I'm grounded in reality you're in fantasy land.
     
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  8. REAL TALK!

    REAL TALK! Banned

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    Real Talk!
     
  9. Conuficus

    Conuficus Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Well away from here
    :lol:
     
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  10. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Wait....... Are you saying Marino couldn't do it all on his own and get us a ring? Blasphemy.


    [​IMG]
     
  11. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    So now we're agreed upon that he's not the worst QB in the NFL. See there...... makin progress.
     
  12. Conuficus

    Conuficus Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Well away from here
    I'm just keeping it real.
     
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  13. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    To be honest, this is very insulting. Just because one thinks Chad Henne is a bad QB doesn't mean one is a "simpleton". To suggest that criticism of Henne is based on team accomplishments is ridiculous.
     
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  14. REAL TALK!

    REAL TALK! Banned

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    I never said Henne was the worst. In a previous post, you wrongly accused me of saying Henne stinks. Never said that either.

    Henne is below average. Ryan is elite. You don't have to be a mathematician to see it. You just need watch football games and be honest with yourself. Real Talk!
     
  15. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    I don't think thats necessarily a strong argument. The Steelers have a QB that doesn't need protection to be successful. Even the Packers, with a very mobile QB, are a completely different team without Clifton.

    Of course an elite QB is better than an elite LT. The problem is, the majority of QBs taken early are closer to busts than elite. For every Matt Ryan there are dozens of guys that set their franchise back.
     
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  16. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    I think you're taking what Raf said a little to the extreme, a little personal, and out of context.

    How do you feel when patients or normal people talk to you as if they know more about medicine & health than yourself?

    That's how I imagine how Raf feels..... and I imagine it becomes frustrating.

    He's not calling people, simpletons, in general..... He's calling fans with minimal football knowledge, simpletons, which they are.
    Too many fans criticize aspects of the game that they simply have a lack of understanding of.

    I certainly wouldn't join an NBA forum and criticize aspects of the game...... and I wouldn't do it b/c right now, I'm a simpleton when it comes to basketball.
     
  17. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

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    I feel the same about ALL positions. We have the top (maybe 2nd best) LT in the game. We won 7 games the last two seasons.

    Anytime you can get that "elite", as in best or second best, player you may be able to slack a little in another area. However, and again, a well rounded team will trump a team with the best QB and the 31st ranked defense or a team with the best LT.

    However, if a team can get a top 10 defense, they can slack a lot in most other areas when compared to a team with a top 10 offense. Defense, at least according to nearly all the Super Bowl winners, is the biggest factor in winning a championship...however, that's still not one player.
     
  18. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

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    Marino, especially in his first couple of years , played on some great offensive teams. He played well because his supporting cast supported him. Later on, after he became a seasoned veteran, he was able to put up gawdy numbers because he was elite. I don't think anyone is trying to make that case for Henne. I don't see anyone claiming that Henne can or will be elite.

    However, when a rookie QB comes in and has no support, he will most likely look awful. How many INT's were because a WR ran the wrong route? Fell down? Tipped the ball into a defenders hands? Or how many of those were caused because of no running game which enabled the defense to play back and thus forced Henne to make throws most QB's wouldn't even attempt but he had no other choice? There are too many variables here. And even though the variables are numerous and thus make this a case of "what if's", the fact that Henne has 2 complete seasons under his belt on teams that were just horrible is fact.

    Wins and losses, which is what rafael was referring to, is a TEAM stat. I agree with him in that anyone who uses wins and losses to determine individual greatness (in football) has a simple mind.
     
  19. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    thats no what he's saying and you know it. A portion of the fans aren't simpletons bc they dislike a person. They're simpletons bc a large portion of these fans have never put on a pair of pads, actually studied the game, nor been paid for their input...... Yet they go around criticizing and spewing occasional nonsense as if they know what they're talking about and feel the relationships, dynamics, and intracies within the game are insignificant.

    it's just like what Sick was referring to when he mentioned fans during the scrimmage complaining about Henne throwing a poor pass when it was an intentional back shoulder and they had no clue what they were talking about. These are football simpletons.

    if you want to treat all fans as if we all possess the same football wisdom, knowledge, and insight, then that's your choice of course.
     
  20. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    Harsh perhaps, but I find it incredibly simplistic to equate a team's won/loss record with an absolute measure of how good 1 player out of 53 is. I could see people complaining if the claim was being made that Henne was the better QB and that the team's record should be completely ignored. But nobody has done that. I know I have never said that Henne is as good as Ryan. The most I have said is that I believe that given similar circumstances that Henne is capable of achieving similar team success. Thus far, that would mean a good regular season record with a sub. 500 strength of schedule and being knocked out of the playoffs.
     
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  21. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    I find the TD/INT ratio argument to also be simplistic. Not as simplistic as win = elite QB, but simplistic nonetheless. It's the kind of thing people said about Steve Young in Tampa when he an 11/21 TD/INT ratio his first two years. It was a dumbed down analysis that ignored the situation.
     
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  22. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    I never said that having a negative opinion of Henne makes one a simpleton. I stated that the level of analysis was simplistic and no better than that of a simpleton.
     
  23. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    I really don't care. PHYLLIS DILLER!
     
  24. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I freakin love KM man..lol.

    You wanna know my definition of simpleton analysis...People who can't quantify that we won that game against the steelers and just dismiss the outcome and the big picture, yet criticize like it never happened and not care to put into proper context when projecting the future of this team..

    How you like this..we were 8 and 8 last year mother grabbers, whats all this talk of consecutive losing seasons...my ***......REAL TALK.!!
     
  25. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    Actually, the frustrating part was that you posted a thread with real analysis and you get some responses that are barely above the level of "Henne sucks!".
     
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  26. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    For example, Archie Manning was every bit as good as his sons, much more athletic than either, but looking at his stats or the Saints W-L record during his career, you would never know it.
     
  27. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    Wait a minute, I think everyone else is now supposed to end their posts with FAKE TALK!
     
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  28. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    Warren sure looked a lot different in Deadwood. Same actor, W. Earl Brown.
    One talented mofo. :)

    [​IMG]
     
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  29. Two Tacos

    Two Tacos Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    This thread make anyone else think of "MATT DAMON!"?
     
  30. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    No not really, but I am a fan of Matt Damon. Very talented actor.
     
  31. DePhinistr8

    DePhinistr8 Season Ticket Holder

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    [​IMG]
     
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  32. Two Tacos

    Two Tacos Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I was specifically referring to his work in Team America World Police. TWO TACOS!
     
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  33. Two Tacos

    Two Tacos Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    You're missing the point. I'll try to break it down for you. What they're saying is that we don't know if CHAD HENNE! can become as good as MATT RYAN! if put in similar situations as MATT RYAN!. Not that CHAD HENNE! is as good as MATT RYAN!, but that CHAD HENNE! could perform similarly to MATT RYAN!. So your countering with last years stats is irrelevant. Now if you had some analysis of CHADD HENNE! that refutes this I'm sure they'd be glad to discuss it with you. We have some fairly knowledgeable posters on here.
     
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  34. Frayser

    Frayser Barstool Philosopher

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    His fight in season three was perhaps the best fight scene ever.
     
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  35. REAL TALK!

    REAL TALK! Banned

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    Thank you for your response.

    We're trying to predict the future, right? We're trying to decide if HENNE can be as good as RYAN. How do we do this? By looking at the past. Last year's stats are not irrelevant. In fact, the OP is full of last year's stats. Its a fool's errand to try to cherry-pick this stat or that stat to prove that HENNE could become RYAN. RYAN was RYAN, right out of the gate. Name a few QBs in the past 10 years who sucked as badly as HENNE and went on to even sniff the kind of production RYAN had in even his rookie year? We all know the Drew Brees is an example, but who else? Who else in the past 10 years has sucked for 2 seasons, only to later turn it around? He's got 27 TDs and 33 INTs!!! That stat does not need to be broken down into little tiny pieces to excuse this INT or that opportunity to throw a TD.

    We know Chad Henne. He stares down receivers, throws INTs, and checks down every opportunity he can. We also know Matt Ryan. He's an elite QB in the NFL.

    Oh, and one last thing. I got eyeballs. Two of em. I've watched a bunch of Falcons games. HENNE will never be RYAN. Real Talk!
     
  36. PhinsPhan23

    PhinsPhan23 New Member

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    To me, your post simply proves that this game of football is not just about 1 player. I agree that the QB is the most important position, but the media and fans in my opinion has turned this sport into a QB focused league where if you have a good QB you win, if you don't you lose. I'll take this one step further. With regards to recent super bowl winners, what's another consistent trait you see outside of good QB play. I'll give you these items:

    1. Good coaching (Bellicheck, Payton, McCarthy, Dungy, Tomlin, Coughlin) - All of these guys have proven to be very good coaches in all facets
    2. Great team management (GM, ownership, etc.) - Think about the total package of these teams. It's rediculous.

    NE - Vrabel, Bruschi, Harrison, Seymour, Warren, Branch, OLine was solid
    NO - Bush, Thomas, solid O-Line, Sharper, Colston, Meachem, Moore
    GB - Raji, Matthews, Woodson, Tramon Williams, Shields, ok O-Line, Driver, Jennings
    IND - Addai, Wayne, Marvin, Freeney, Mathis, Bethea,
    PIT - Whole defense, Ward, ok O-Line
    NYG - Jacobs, Plax, Defense was great, good O-line

    Now I didn't mention the Qbs but they were obviously big factors as well. My point was that the coaching and front office put together a great team around their great QB and they probably had a lot of influence in the QB that was either drafted or signed (or they inherited that QB).
     
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  37. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    Your intent was clear as day.
     
  38. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    Yes, to point out that the level of analysis displayed in some posts is very simplistic.
     
  39. Two Tacos

    Two Tacos Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    The only analysis relevant to the question came from your second paragraph, specific things that you think Chad does. Stats are so dependent on the team, the scheme, and the competition in a team sport like football.

    Look, I’ll show what I mean by answering your question about QBs that struggled their first 2 years.

    Aaron Rodgers: first two years went 15 of 31 with no touchdowns and 1 int. This doesn’t mean that Henne is going to become better than Rodgers. Rodgers third year he did much better with 1 td and no ints.

    Matt Hasselbeck: first two years he was 13 of 29 with 2 tds, but gave up 11 sacks. His third year, witch was his first real year with playing time he had a 54% completion percentage with 7tds and 8 int.

    Matt Cassels: first three years he went 22 of 39 with 2 tds and 2ints.

    I chose those three QBs because they were all on play off teams this year, and they all didn’t do much until their fourth year. The year Henne is going into. Granted Hasselbeck was the only one that saw significant playtime before his fourth year, and really should be the only one whose stats are used to compare Henne with, but that is the point. Stats are dependent on outside (meaning outside of the QBs play) variables. And Hennes stats compare fine with Hasselbecks, but really all of that is pointless statmongery.

    If the team and Henne can give us a six year window, starting this year, where Henne is playing effective enough to have a mid to upper 80s rating we can win a superbowl. I am optimistic that Henne will do better than that. I am always overly optimistic about the Dolphins though. Realistically, I think Henne should be able to give similar quality of play to Hasselbeck.
     
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  40. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

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    Why cherry pick the last 10 years?

    P. Manning 1st season- 26 TD's and 28 INTs (led the league in INTs)

    Elway's first 3 seasons- 47 TD's and 52 INTs

    Favre's first 2 seasons- 37 TD's and 38 INTs

    S. Young's first 2 seasons- 11 TD's and 21 INTs



    Your post, like your life I presume, has been deemed worthless. ;)
     
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