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Comparing Atlanta to Miami in some key areas that affect wins, losses, & QB play

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by ToddsPhins, Aug 8, 2011.

  1. REAL TALK!

    REAL TALK! Banned

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    Your QB examples are way off! We're talking first 2 years as a STARTER! You can't count the years they were in mop up duty. Henne's had two full years of starting in the NFL. He is what he is. Slightly below average.

    Aaron Rodgers threw for 28 TDs and 13 INTs, with a passer rating of 93 his first year as a starter!
    Hasslebeck's first year as a starter, he destroyed Henne, stat-wise.
    Matt Cassel's first year as a starter was amazing as well.

    No player in the past 10 years, has STARTED for two full years and then became great in the third year (other than Brees). Henne is what he is: slightly below average. REAL TALK!
     
  2. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    Does every thread have to devolve to insults and personal attacks now? This place is slowly becoming FH.
     
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  3. REAL TALK!

    REAL TALK! Banned

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    Cause the game has changed.
    My life is worthless? Really? That's the best you can do to people who disagree with you? REAL TALK!
     
  4. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    "He stares down receivers". I know how little a fan watches the actual game when they use this as a crutch as if this was this huge huge problem last year. It wasn't. It's a de facto argument when you don't have much going for you.

    Yes, he throws INT's. Just like every other QB. At this point, Sanchez has exactly 1 TD more and the same number of INT's in their careers. Manning had 36 in his first two years (46 TD's) but our offense was really not geared toward scoring TD's and Peyton Manning is a gifted player. Last 2 years in the red zone, Henne has been throwing TD's at a slightly higher clip than former Dolphins savior Kyle Orton. Still things to work on, but again, oversimplistic analysis does not help your case. You're just using the default arguments that are spread around the internet.

    Henne was second in the league in not checking down last year. Behind Aaron Rodgers. I bet you think any short pass is a check down. Ignorance is not an excuse to demonstrate your lack of knowledge. RICHARD DAWSON!
     
  5. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

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    You're here to troll. It's pretty clear.

    Yes, the game has changed. However, when you ask how many QB's played poorly their first couple of years only to turn it around you need to use more than the last 10 seasons.

    There are VERY few QB's who play great in their first couple of seasons. And typically the ones who do play for really good teams. The Falcons have been a really good team where as the Dolphins have not. And if a person ignores this HUGE factor they should maybe stop talking about football.
     
  6. Two Tacos

    Two Tacos Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    So, you just missed my point completely then? I called it useless statmongery. What did you think I meant by that? You're putting the restriction that stats only count for years as starters. I'm going to go ahead and put the restriction that stats only count for teams with good running games, and since Henne didn’t have a good running game... See what I did there? That's why your points, other than you thinking that Chad stares down WR and throws too many INTs are not relevant to what is being discussed. No one is agrueing that Chad had good stats last year, or played well enough to win last year. Do you get my point now?

    If not, then I have no more time to waste with you, and will say good day.
     
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  7. REAL TALK!

    REAL TALK! Banned

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    You sure I'm the troll? You're the one throwing insults at those who disagree with you. REAL TALK!
     
  8. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

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    Ryan has played 3 seasons. Two of those seasons the Falcons defense was ranked 10th or better. They made the playoffs each of those years. The other season they had the 14th ranked defense and failed to make the playoffs. That was also Ryan's worst year statistically as a pro QB (80 QBR). Hmmm...correlation between defensive play and how well the offense plays maybe? Yes...at least that's what the numbers have shown time and time again.


    Henne has played 2 seasons and the Dolphin's defense ranked 25th and 14th. (75 QBR both seasons)

    Also, in 2008, Pennington benefited from having a 9th ranked defense. And Pennington's offense was ranked lower (21st) than Henne's offense the following year (15th).
     
  9. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    When I first started watching the series, I didn't realize Dan Dority and Warren were played by the same actor. It was mildly shocking when I first found out. I agree about that fight. Hearst wanted the Captain to draw the fight out longer. He could have finished Dan when he had his head in the puddle. The Capt paused to look up for a signal from Hearst and gave Dan a chance to recover.

    [video=youtube;xeS6y6mbUzY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xeS6y6mbUzY[/video]
     
  10. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    What are the expected points off an INT?
     
  11. REAL TALK!

    REAL TALK! Banned

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    1. Ryan's worst year is light years better than Henne's best.
    2. Our defense in 08 was great because of Pennington, not the other way around. Pennington didn't throw INTs and put our defense in bad spots.
    3. If you wanna talk "team", remember that Henne has the greatest LT in the game. Ryan does not have that luxury.
    4. REAL TALK!
     
  12. Conuficus

    Conuficus Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Well away from here
    When you argue with a fool, you really are with him.

    Just food for thought.
     
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  13. Two Tacos

    Two Tacos Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    No, you aren't... :shifty:
     
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  14. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Gheesh. This was pure gold, and not a single person got it? :pity:
     
  15. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

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    1. A 5 point difference in QBR is not "light years"
    2. lol...Then why was Pennington's offense worse than Henne's offense? Are you trying to say that there is an inverse relationship between offense and defense? Because Pennington's offense was ranked 21st and the defense was ranked 9th. Henne's offense the next season was ranked 15th but they had the 25th ranked defense.
    3. You want to talk "team" and pick ONE PLAYER? Ryan's TEAM is better overall.
    4. REAL DUMB!


    Also, is it coincidence that the year the Falcons failed to make the playoffs and Ryan had his worst year as a pro was the same year Turner rushed for only ~800 yards?

    The two years Ryan went to the playoffs Turner rushed for 1700 yards and 1400 yards.
     
  16. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    You know what that is Con? TEAL RALK!
     
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  17. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    I would absolutely love it if you would be so kind as to share with us Cassel's 2nd year starting stats.
     
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  18. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

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    lol...I could have decent QB stats playing for that Patriot's team.
     
  19. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    This coming from the guy saying our heads are up are arses b/c we don't see it your way. :lol:


    2 Questions:

    1. Do you have REAL TALK! some how programmed into your posts or do you have to type manually?
    2. If you forget it, do you go back and edit your post to add it in?
     
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  20. REAL TALK!

    REAL TALK! Banned

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    I do that **** old school. No auto-fill here. I never forget, cause I'm always keeping it real. REAL TALK!
     
  21. REAL TALK!

    REAL TALK! Banned

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    Thanks for bringing up Matt Cassell again. Cassell didn't play so good his second year. Not sure why.

    But man, did he play lights out his first and 3rd seasons. His third season, he played with a crappy KC team and his TD/INT was 27/7. He played better with a crappy KC team than with the almighty 2008 Patriots, one year removed from their 2007 18-1 season.

    How do you explain that Cassell played better with a crap KC team than with one of the greatest teams of all-time? I have a theory: Matt Cassell is really good QB, no matter who he plays with. REAL TALK!

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  22. Conuficus

    Conuficus Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Well away from here
    Stay classy San Diego.
     
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  23. Two Tacos

    Two Tacos Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    If you want to play stat for stat we can do that. I can find a stat to prove allmost anything.

    In 2009 the Cheifs averaged 120 rushing yards a game, Cassel had a 69.9 QB rating. In 2010 the Cheifs averaged 164 rushing yards per game(best in the NFL), Cassel had a 93 QB rating... Yes, I wonder what did happen? For reference the Pats averaged 142 yards a game the season that Cassel started for them (2008), that with Moss and Welker in their primes.

    **edit** So Cassel is great with a top 5 type of rushing attack.
     
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  24. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    Better QB play helped the ground game? I'm not sure that all these correlated statistics show any type of causation.
     
  25. Two Tacos

    Two Tacos Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    That's why statistics are fun, and useless.
     
  26. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    Certainly not useless. There are plenty of correlated statistics that allow you to determine a causation.
     
  27. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Thank you. I don't even recall the opening post having very much of any QB stats. I believe dropped INTs were the only one.

    The OP was more about the play around the QB since this is a team game.

    But Mr Talky Talk implies from the get go that this isn't a team game by saying "Lots of numbers" regarding my opening post followed by a Henne remark. He probably didn't even go through the numbers and just saw this as an opportunity to turn yet another thread into a Henne bashing opportunity.

    The intention of my opening post was NOT to make excuses for Henne's 2010 season; it was to show that we did NOT play well enough as a team last year to EARN a playoff run. My intention was to show that IF we improved those listed <significant> areas crucial to any team's success, that 2011 could be a season of great optimism.

    My intention was not to say that Henne is as good as Matt Ryan or that Ryan is a bad QB and doesn't deserve any credit; my intention was to show that Ryan's team deserves a little more credit for their 13 wins than they received and Ryan deserves a little less credit than he's given....... and that Henne was given entirely TOO MUCH credit for Miami losses, while the rest of the Dolphin team (including coaches) were given far too little credit for them. My intention was to show that this is a TEAM game, and that young, developing QBs can look good or bad depending on the play around them....... and that Chad Henne could be much closer to being a Matt Ryan than a Matt Leinart.



    I created the OP b/c I felt we addressed much of these important areas. Special Teams blunders should be limited this year, while the return game should see a boost once we determine which playmaker is fielding kicks. Hopefully no more blocked punts for TDs, kickoffs out of bounds or big returns allowed at the most inopportune time. Maybe we can be on the giving end this year instead.

    Our Oline is healthy (when Jake comes back) and it's been upgraded by the addition of Pouncey. I don't see why it can't perform better than it did during the first half of 2010 before the injury bug struck.

    IMO our running back position improved with all things considered. Combined with our Oline, 1st down success should be vastly improved. Big plays from the back field should be emerge again. The ground game should be gaining more 1st downs during 1st & 2nd down so we don't have to see as many 3rd downs. Honestly, can you guys recall what it's like to not be stuck in a 3rd down passing situation? :lol:


    Regression to the mean should balance out the "dropped INT" category to where Henne finishes with 12 INTs while Sanchez hands em out like spoons at a soup kitchen.


    Sean Smith was previously a WR, so I don't think he just forgot how to catch. Perhaps with things moving a bit slower this year, both he and stud Vontae pick a dozen passes between them (very plausible) combined with a handful more picks at the LB position. I expect a more experienced FS position to have a couple more as well.


    Our entire defense was wet behind the ears as a whole, so one extra year of seasoning, experience, and playing with Nolan should see our share of forced fumbles improve while the excessive amount of damaging 30+ yard TD passes is cut in half. Those were game ruiners in 2010.


    I'm willing to bet my butt we see significantly more short field opportunities, and when we get them, we're not going to sit on the ball to preserve a stupid FG. 2011 will refresh our minds regarding what it's like to not have to drive 70-99 yards every possession.
     
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  28. REAL TALK!

    REAL TALK! Banned

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    AHA! You have come full-circle and are now agreeing with me. My eyeballs have seen Henne start 2 full seasons. He is slightly below average. REAL TALK!
     
  29. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    When we accomplish what I mentioned above,
    we're going 11-5
    finishing 2nd in our division
    earning a wild card spot
    winning our first playoff game in over a decade
    and Henne will have an 87+QBR, with 22+ TDs, less than 14 INTs, 3600+ yards, and 3+ game winning drives. Yeah, I said it. lol.
     
  30. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    And this is supposed to mean what to us? lol
     
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  31. Two Tacos

    Two Tacos Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Have you read any of my posts? There was no circle.
     
  32. REAL TALK!

    REAL TALK! Banned

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    Man, I hope you're right and I'm a big, fat fool! REAL TALK!
     
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  33. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

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    Stats are the ONLY objective proof a person can use for football. However, they need to be used correctly and can't be cherry picked or taken out of context.
     
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  34. Two Tacos

    Two Tacos Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Useless as used in this debate, but fun! It takes time and research to prove causation.
     
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  35. Two Tacos

    Two Tacos Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    That's my point though, the context isn't as simple as a stat line would have you believe. I prefer analysis from peoples whose opinions I trust based on their track record and experience. Stat based debates always seem to be about the context instead of the subject of the debate, with each side trying to change the context to support their position. Which isn't objective at all.
     
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  36. Two Tacos

    Two Tacos Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    That's probably why I'm overly optimistic on my evaluations with the Dolphins. I always hope I'm wrong if I go negative.
     
  37. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

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    Yeah...because it was shown that Marino's great QB play helped them with their run game.

    Typically the run game helps the passing game a lot. The passing game will help the running game at times, but not too much overall.
     
  38. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Synergy. They help each other.
     
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  39. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    I don't really agree. I think the passing game can absolutely help the running game. I don't think there is a hard and fast rule either way. It depends on way too many variables.
     
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  40. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

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    Are you joking?

    You think he played better last season than he did with the Patriots and KC was crap? And you don't know why he played poorly in 2009?

    Well, he was thrown into the 2008 season after Brady went down. He hadn't started a game in over 6 years. (High School) He threw for more yards, had a better completion %, had a higher Y/A, and averaged about 30 yards more in passing each game. There was a 3 point difference between his QBR from 2008 and 2010.

    cassel played poorly in 2009 because KC played poorly. Cassel would not, could not, and will not become a consistant "really good QB" no matter who he plays for sans the Patriots. I think most any QB could play well on their team.
     

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