1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

The Good and the Bad...

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Paul 13, Aug 12, 2011.

  1. Paul 13

    Paul 13 Chaotic Neutral & Unstable Genius Staff Member

    85,620
    51,681
    113
    Dec 3, 2007
    does everything have to be so absolute?
     
    MrClean and PhiNomina like this.
  2. Third Man

    Third Man Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    1,324
    1,164
    113
    Nov 10, 2010
    There's a difference between "poor" ball placement -- as you've repeatedly called it -- and good but not ideal ball placement. To characterize what Fasano did as a "mistake" and what Henne did as a "mistake" as if those mistakes were created equal is a bafflingly inaccurate view of that play, imo. No other evaluator that I have seen (edit: now Omar's saying it... nice company to be in, there) has described the play that way. None. In every instance I have seen observers have correctly placed the blame where it belongs, and that's on Anthony Fasano.

    But why see these things with the subtlety they require when we can resort to the age ol' cry of the "objective analysis" battling the "deluded" (which apparently includes everyone but you). So far nearly everyone on here has -- correctly -- placed the blame of the second INT on Henne. Wrong route or not, he deserves the blame and just about everyone has given it to him.
     
  3. Paul 13

    Paul 13 Chaotic Neutral & Unstable Genius Staff Member

    85,620
    51,681
    113
    Dec 3, 2007
    I saw the first couple of drives again just now on NFLN, and I realize I should take the first team defense off the "bad" list. They were only out there for two drives. One was a three and out and the other was after the first turnover, short field. For some reason I thought they were out there longer than that. It's easy to get mixed up because the Falcons left their first team offense on the field for a third drive (that got them to 14 points).

    As an aside, Jared Odrick is a beast. It's interesting to note that when we went goal line defense on that first td drive, there were six down linemen in the game, with Merling and Odrick on the ends. Odrick actually made a read to pass defend on the tight end. I don't know if this is anything new or not. I bet Odie could play OLB if he wanted to.
     
    GMJohnson, MrClean and slickj101 like this.
  4. JMHPhin

    JMHPhin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    7,684
    3,323
    113
    Nov 27, 2007
    Ohio
    Really ck? You going to take your ball and go home now?

    You dont see your own side in it? You dont even see that Henne intentionally didnt lead him because of teh outside defender?

    Show me the brees and Mannings and the Bradys that never throw an imperfect pass? Are you going to be critical of them when they throw a pass that was slightly behind or low or high or far and the receiver makes the play? The FACT is many passes arent perfect but are caught and the qb is praised

    Now yes the pass was too far inside, BUT it was catchable and HIT HIM IN THE NUMBZERS so the qb threw him a catchable ball.

    If you want to blame Henne go for it, just dont come as you know everything and we know nothing, it becomes irritating.
     
  5. Southbeach

    Southbeach Banned

    4,154
    1,218
    0
    Aug 22, 2010
    Did anyone see Clay? He was the only one I wanted to see that I didn't, and haven't had the time to re-watch yet.
     
  6. BlameItOnTheHenne

    BlameItOnTheHenne Taking a poop

    15,112
    7,311
    113
    Aug 15, 2010
    Davie

    I remember seeing him in a huddle once, but nothing after that.
     
  7. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

    29,125
    7,721
    0
    Mar 15, 2009
    oooops. Sorry, Mroz.
     
  8. JMHPhin

    JMHPhin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    7,684
    3,323
    113
    Nov 27, 2007
    Ohio
    The point is noone is saying Henne didnt make mistakes and answered all his doubters. he made mistakes, bis PhiNomina said he was aggressive and he got out of trouble and made some plays after bad plays. He didnt go in teh crapper. He definitely has things to work on. But Fasano made the mistake on 1st int.

    How many times have we heard, "I can deal with an int if it is being aggressive and trying to advance the ball downfield"? Well here it is
     
    PhiNomina and padre31 like this.
  9. Ozzy

    Ozzy Premium Member Luxury Box

    I hope he is talking about the int thrown to Fasano! Fasano's fault but the ball was not where it should have been. He should have led Fasano but instead he hurried it and it went behind him. No way was Fasano about to get smashed either. It was in his hands but bad ball placement.
     
  10. slickj101

    slickj101 Is Water

    15,886
    8,901
    113
    Dec 21, 2007
    NY
    [​IMG]
     
    MrClean, ToddsPhins and MarinePhinFan like this.
  11. Ozzy

    Ozzy Premium Member Luxury Box

    Answer: Absolutely 100 percent positively YES!

    I went back and forth with some people in the game day thread about it too. Fasano should have caught it but that was not where it should have been thrown.
     
    ckparrothead and FLACRW like this.
  12. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

    29,125
    7,721
    0
    Mar 15, 2009
    and what do you call the guys playing for Marshall, Long, and Bush at their respective positions?
     
    MrClean and MarinePhinFan like this.
  13. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

    29,125
    7,721
    0
    Mar 15, 2009
    That's an entrapment question...... likely leading to banishment.
     
  14. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

    7,612
    1,578
    0
    Oct 11, 2010
    When it's about something that he (thinks) proves his opinion...
     
  15. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

    7,612
    1,578
    0
    Oct 11, 2010
    If Fasano should have caught it then it's his fault.
     
  16. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

    29,125
    7,721
    0
    Mar 15, 2009
    He's an NFL wide receiver with good acceleration and quality route running; he should be able to create the occasional big play. I never said he can't. I've only said he's not the guy you want to rely on as your big play vertical threat. There's a distinct difference.
     
    GMJohnson, MrClean and PhiNomina like this.
  17. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

    7,612
    1,578
    0
    Oct 11, 2010


    ^^^Unread
     
  18. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

    7,612
    1,578
    0
    Oct 11, 2010

    I meant rusty in terms of his arm...lol..I said his feet looked a lot better.
     
  19. NaboCane

    NaboCane Banned

    31,949
    11,899
    0
    Nov 24, 2007
    ^^^On you, then.
     
  20. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

    7,612
    1,578
    0
    Oct 11, 2010
    Not really. I used to like to read his posts. CK was objective and fair and would comment on things that were knowable. I didn't agree with him 100% of the time, but he at least was rational and made a good case. I can't recall in the past where he'd "bet" someone on how good a team is or isn't after one preseason game.

    However, it seems he's now just turned into a Henne hater and all of his posts have turned into objective, albeit wordy, crappy posts.
     
  21. Ozzy

    Ozzy Premium Member Luxury Box

    See I'm not even trying to KILL Chad Henne because of that throw. What I did see that some people have not even mentioned was he tried to use some touch on that throw. Not winging it in a 100 mph was a pleasent thing.

    BUT both were at fault. Fasano should have bailed his Qb out and caught that ball. YES he should have!

    Henne should have thrown it the same speed but led Fasano.

    I'm not just trying to find a way to blame Chad Henne. I want him to be better! That's all...
     
  22. Killerphins

    Killerphins The Finger

    9,313
    4,169
    0
    Nov 11, 2008
    :wave::wave::wave:

    Confucius say ball hit both hands same time is catch.
     
    ToddsPhins and MarinePhinFan like this.
  23. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

    7,612
    1,578
    0
    Oct 11, 2010

    I'd like to see 100% of Henne's passes 100% on target. However, that's not possible. If a QB was expected to able to place a ball on a dime all the time I could play WR. However, all the QB is expected to do it place the ball where an NFL caliber WR can catch it. And when the ball hits a WR in both hands/chest and the WR drops it it's 100% the WR's fault. If Fasano hadn't of tipped it up and instead the ball had fallen to the ground incomplete I 100% certain that CK would have either said something disparaging about Fasaon ONLY or said nothing at all.
     
  24. NaboCane

    NaboCane Banned

    31,949
    11,899
    0
    Nov 24, 2007
    He's not a Henne hater. In fact, I hazard a guess that none of the fans of this team "hate" Henne.

    I can't speak for exactly what CK thinks, but as many of us think, Henne may very well be unsalvageable after being abused by Sparano and Henning. An athlete's psyche, particularly an athlete performing near the top of his profession, is a fragile thing. Just ask Tiger Woods.

    I don't dislike Henne in the least; but I also think there's a stronger possibility that we're wasting our time with him than there is that he'll be alright.

    And here's the kicker: we're not talking about a guy who was going to be the next John Elway anyway; Henne was always going to be, at best, serviceable; workmanlike, like a Jake Plummer.

    So even if we do tough it out with him and he comes out the other side as good as he can be, that still won't be a great Quarterback.

    Seems like a lot of work for about a 50% ROI.
     
    ckparrothead likes this.
  25. PhiNomina

    PhiNomina White-Collar Redneck

    7,433
    3,637
    113
    Dec 21, 2007
    Cleveland, OH
    The more I think of INT as a stat, the more it reminds me of the RBI stat in baseball. To get one or the other, you have to personally do SOMETHING (get a hit / throw a ball in traffic), but often there are is way too much influence from other players (be one base / make the catch) for it to be an exact indicator of one person's performance.

    It isn't an exact comparison but something to think about, especially in regards to many of Henne's picks last year where there was dual responsibility.
     
    MrClean, MarinePhinFan and ToddsPhins like this.
  26. Tone_E

    Tone_E Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    13,777
    7,574
    113
    Dec 8, 2007
    But when it was a bad throw and Ginn got his hands on the balls and dropped them, it was HIS fault. Hands on the ball = it is catchable. Behind or not.

    I dont defend or attack Henne, but this board is full of double standards sometimes.
     
  27. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

    29,125
    7,721
    0
    Mar 15, 2009
    I might think so..... if Chad weren't throwing to an NFL TE.

    If a high school kid were out there filling in for Fasano, then I might have to blame Henne for not putting the pass in the precise spot for a novice with questionable hands to make the easy catch.

    Gheesh, if TEs are absolved from catching slightly off target throws, maybe we should blame Thomas for being a hair late to pick up the blitz. At one point, Chad had no one in between himself and the stunting defender. Then Thomas whiffs a bit on the block and Henne makes the throw with a defender closing in on his grill as Fasano is breaking. Considering Bess & Clay weren't options b/c there didn't appear to be a passing lane, I'm not sure how anyone could fault Henne for making the right decision and throwing a catchable pass.
     
    MrClean likes this.
  28. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

    29,125
    7,721
    0
    Mar 15, 2009
    I absolutely feel we SHOULD judge QBs on it..... which is why, when you compile last season's stats of off-target passes (under thrown, overthrown, or thrown wide), Henne appears more accurate than all the other young guns.


    Number of Off-Target Passes... % of total attempts....... Number of passes broken up... % of total attempts....... Both Combined.


    Henne.......... 67 throws.... 13.67%.......... 37 PBU.... 7.55%......... 21.22%
    Freeman...... 66 throws.... 13.92%.......... 44 PBU.... 9.28%......... 23.20%
    Bradford...... 98 throws.... 16.61%.......... 39 PBU.... 6.61%......... 23.22%
    Flacco.......... 75 throws.... 15.30%.......... 40 PBU.... 8.12%......... 23.42%
    Ryan............ 95 throws.... 16.81%.......... 45 PBU.... 7.88%......... 24.69%
    Sanchez....... 92 throws.... 18.15%.......... 49 PBU.... 9.66%......... 27.81%



    According to this break down, Henne had the LEAST amount of passes thrown off-target AND the least amount of passes thrown into tight coverage that were broken up. That's gotta be worth something. IMO it means more than the misleading INT category.

    So we should ignore the above and instead judge his placement based on one pass attempt during our first preseason game?
     
  29. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

    79,599
    159,162
    113
    Dec 1, 2007
    Well it's just become obvious that for a certain percentage of the fans here, Chad Henne is off limits. He's a sacred cow. You can't criticize him, you can't correctly attribute mistakes and imperfections, nothing. If you do, you're a hater, you're drawing conclusions based on just this or just that.

    You know what, I wish Chad Henne had actually gone out there and performed well. I wish the Dolphins did in general. Then I could actually talk about what they did well and poorly and people wouldn't be all over me like white on rice just for objectively describing what happened. But that wasn't the case. Chad Henne did not perform well and neither did the first or second string Dolphins. That's what happened. And because that's what happened, evidently we're not allowed to talk about it.
     
  30. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

    29,125
    7,721
    0
    Mar 15, 2009
    Now you're just looking for every reason to execute Henne.

    You wanna talk about ball placement? That pass was placed ONLY where Bess could get it.

    If you freeze it at the 20:12:12 mark, you can plainly draw a straight line between Henne, the corner, and Bess.

    If Henne puts that pass where Bess can catch it in stride to turn up field, the ONLY player with YAC is the CB undercutting him & taking it to the house for a pick 6. That was an outstanding throw to a trusted receiver with tremendous hands when making grabs going to toward the right sideline.
     
    GMJohnson and MrClean like this.
  31. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

    79,599
    159,162
    113
    Dec 1, 2007
    I do not agree with that at all.
     
  32. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

    29,125
    7,721
    0
    Mar 15, 2009
    The ball might've been thrown behind him, but that's not the same thing as arriving far behind him to where he's extending to make a difficult catch. Fasano adjusted himself to where the pass arrived at his chest, not behind him. His hands didn't have to extend anywhere. Big difference.
     
    PhiNomina, MrClean and Paul 13 like this.
  33. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

    29,125
    7,721
    0
    Mar 15, 2009
    (for clarification we're speaking of Bess's diving catch).

    Then pause it at the 20:12:12 mark, change the ball trajectory to where it would now be hitting Bess in stride between the numbers, and tell me where the DB is in relation.

    If the throw comes down a few feet and up field a few feet to hit Bess in stride, it's picked..... all day ebbey day.

    Henne's margin of error was slim to none on the throw; it was a pass that had to be thrown to where only Bess could get it. It was either an incomplete or a tough catch b/c anything else was a potential pick.
     
    MrClean likes this.
  34. NaboCane

    NaboCane Banned

    31,949
    11,899
    0
    Nov 24, 2007
    Then that's where a third-year starter, a guy with FOUR offseasons under his belt, throws it away.

    We get caught in a wind tunnel of analysis around here when the answer sometimes is: just don't do it at all.

    Throw it away. Next down.
     
    Ozzy likes this.
  35. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

    29,125
    7,721
    0
    Mar 15, 2009
    lmao :lol:
     
  36. JMHPhin

    JMHPhin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    7,684
    3,323
    113
    Nov 27, 2007
    Ohio
    Well it seems if you believe you are right and believe yourself an expert then you dont have to listen to anyone elses opinion. I dont have an issue with your belief, its your attitude that you cant be disagreed with. You state your beliefs as fact, belittle others like the above. you act above you get reproach. If I think fasano was to blame, well then I am stupid because CK said it was a bad throw and throws in a bunch of information as if that proved what Hennes intent was.

    Fact is Henne hit fasano in the chest hence a catchable ball therefore not a horrible pass, maybe not the best pass but catchable. When you fault the qb for throwing a pass that is catchable but not perfect then you are looking to place blame on Henne
     
    MrClean likes this.
  37. JMHPhin

    JMHPhin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    7,684
    3,323
    113
    Nov 27, 2007
    Ohio
    the 2nd int was clearly a bad decision IMO and shouldnt have been thrown
     
  38. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

    29,125
    7,721
    0
    Mar 15, 2009
    Let's have fun with this and add the best QBs in the game for comparison.

    Number of Off-Target Passes... % of total attempts...... # of Passes Broken Up... % of total attempts....... Both combined.

    Henne.......... 67 throws.... 13.67%.......... 37 PBU.... 7.55%......... 21.22%
    Freeman...... 66 throws.... 13.92%.......... 44 PBU.... 9.28%......... 23.20%
    Bradford...... 98 throws.... 16.61%.......... 39 PBU.... 6.61%......... 23.22%
    Flacco.......... 75 throws.... 15.30%.......... 40 PBU.... 8.12%......... 23.42%
    Ryan............ 95 throws.... 16.81%.......... 45 PBU.... 7.88%......... 24.69%
    Sanchez....... 92 throws.... 18.15%.......... 49 PBU.... 9.66%......... 27.81%


    Compare this to the league's best QBs:
    Brees............... 66......... 10.03%......... 55 PBU.... 8.35%......... 18.38%
    Rivers.............. 75......... 13.86%......... 26 PBU.... 4.81%......... 18.67%
    Brady............... 64......... 13.01%......... 28 PBU.... 5.69%......... 18.70%
    Rodgers........... 64......... 13.47%......... 29 PBU.... 6.10%......... 19.57%
    Schaub............. 73......... 12.72%......... 47 PBU.... 8.19%......... 20.91%
    P Manning........ 92......... 13.55%......... 51 PBU.... 7.51%......... 21.06%
    Roethlisberger. 62......... 15.94%......... 26 PBU.... 6.68%......... 22.62%



    and just for the heck of it:
    Orton............... 85......... 17.07%........ 50 PBU.... 10.04%........ 27.11%

    (and this is the QB some fans wanted throwing to route runners like Bess & Hartline?)
     
  39. Ozzy

    Ozzy Premium Member Luxury Box

    How many times do I have to say it was Fasano's fault to not catch the ball?

    I'm not going for the fact that people are totally excusing Henne just because the ball was touched by one hand, two hands, three feet or stuck in his helmet. Touch passes have been an issue with Henne and although I liked the speed it came in, I did not like the placement whatsoever. Good Qb's should make that throw almost every single time they throw it and there is nothing wrong with me wanting Henne to be that Qb. There is also nothing wrong with some honest criticism of the man. Especially when I'm not bashing him.

    That pass should have been in front of Fasano and I'm willing to bet that Chad Henne feels the exact same way...
     
    MarinePhinFan likes this.
  40. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

    29,125
    7,721
    0
    Mar 15, 2009
    Why would you throw it away? He completed it. He put it in a spot where it's either a catch or an incompletion.
    Wait, do you know we're talking about the pass to Bess where he makes the diving catch?
     

Share This Page