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The Good and the Bad...

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Paul 13, Aug 12, 2011.

  1. MikeHoncho

    MikeHoncho -=| Censored |=-

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    [​IMG]

    Ted Ginn Jr. will not entertain this post.
     
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  2. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    If it were caught, my assessment of the throw would not change. It was a poorly placed ball, one of a few he threw during the game.
     
  3. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    JMO, but I would venture to guess that no coach teaches his QB that it doesn't matter where the ball is thrown, as long as its catchable. Ball placement is very important for a QB. On a throw that easy, that not much to ask.

    I'm not sure why we are even debating if the drop was Fasano's fault. It 100% was his fault. That doesn't make the pass a good one.
     
  4. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

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    McCoy did better than Rodgers. Is McCoy better than Rodgers now too? lol

    Look, I didn't watch the Packers-Browns game so I can't really comment too much on it. However, I would assume that McCoy was playing a against a lot of 2nd stringers and he had most of his better players surrounding him. Henne had hsi three best players on the sideline. Long, Marshall, and Bush.
     
  5. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    If it were caught I'd still say it wasn't a good throw. Would we have this discussion? I doubt we'd have this long of a discussion over a catch that could have resulted in more YAC. But that doesn't change my opinion of the throw itself.
     
  6. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

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    Of course they teach ball placement. However, no QB is perfect all the time with ball placement. That is why WR's get paid the money they do to catch the damn ball. Did you see the Brady INT I posted from last year's Jets/Pats playoff game? That was bad ball placement. He missed his WR completely and threw it straight to the DB.

    If you too believe that it was 100% Fasano's fault then I don'y know why we're arguing either.
     
  7. MikeHoncho

    MikeHoncho -=| Censored |=-

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    Funny, that if the adequate pass is completed (held on to by the receiver), we're not here having this discussion.
     
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  8. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

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    Meh...in this league if the ball hits the WR in both hands it's a good enough throw. If we're going to grade QB's on "types" of throws in the first preseason game and then reach a conclussion as to how good that QB is going to be for the rest of the season I don't want to play. lol...
     
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  9. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    I believe that Henne's throw and Fasano's catch are two separate things to be evaluated. Fasano's failures have no impact on Henne's throw. I don't believe anyone has said Fasano's drop wasn't 100% his fault.
     
  10. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

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    But you don't say "probably". You present your analysis as fact and the "facts" that you use are clearly biased and subjective.
     
  11. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    And yet my assessment of it would not change. Nor would the assessments of many of the people in here.
     
  12. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    It seems like minutiae and irrelevant. But the difference between the 25th best QB in the world, and the 10th best QB in the world really comes down to things like that.
     
  13. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

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    As do I. Henne threw a pass that should be caught 99% of the time in the NFL. If he had lead Fasano more I think the pass should have been caught 99% of the time. I write 99% of the time because players drop perfect passes all the time.

    So, looking at each part separately...Henne- threw a 99% catchable ball
    Fasano- dropped a 99% catchable ball
     
  14. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

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    I'd say that the difference is the 10th best QB has a WR who would have caught that ball.
     
  15. JMHPhin

    JMHPhin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    See this is the problem. The response is so ..... full of arrogance. I guess that is teh best way to say it, as if I am ck, I run UD.com, been on NFL network, therefore I am smarter than you and know more than you so really it isnt a dialogue it is you trying in vain to convince me attitude.

    Do I care if your assessment changes? As if it is your assessment that matters. That is the whole problem. You have made your assessment and decided and if anyone disagress they are wrong. As if our assements are irrelevant. So yes when people come out and are critical, sometimes the reaction gets heated. But it works both ways, no side is better than teh other
     
  16. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

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    So the very first pass from a QB in the very first preseason game was 6" to 12" off and that's what we judge thme on? Not me.

    Henne came out in this game, under extreme scrutiny, threw a very catchable first pass and his TE dropped it and tipped it for an INT. He then came out and went 4 of 7 for ~80 yards 1 TD and 1 INT. He scrambled well, moved in the pocket well, threw downfield well, looked downfield well, played play action well, and showed leadership well. He also looked rusty and tentative at times. In particular when he hesitated on the throw to Bess which was intercepted. If he throws it on time it's a lonf completion.

    That's what I seen when I watched Henne.
     
  17. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Just put me on ignore, please.

    I would rather you not see a single post I write than continue to have you project things onto posts that simply are not there and then ***** about it afterwards. There was no arrogance in that statement. It was purely the truth, a simple statement.
     
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  18. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

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    Perfect. Any statistician or scientist that says their "results" are set in stone isn't very good at their job. New numbers or variables will nearly always equal new results. The inabilty of refusal to see those new variables is a weakness and will make ANY results flawed.
     
  19. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    What in the world was arrogant about what he said? You suggested that he wouldn't feel the same way if the pass wasn't dropped. He stated he would feel the same way.
     
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  20. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    I don't disagree with any of that.

    Just because the ball was 100% catchable, doesn't mean it was where it needed to be. You can say that him missing that throw isn't a big deal. Thats fine. All I'm pointing out is that it wasn't where it was supposed to be.
     
  21. mbmonk

    mbmonk I have no clue

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    I would wager every QB suffers from WR's tipping up or bumbling catchable balls that turn into INT's and they still manage to be in the Top 10. Some of the players that Manning and Brady throw to aren't exactly all pro's most of the time. Brady is the perfect example the only all pro on his roster at the end of last year was Welker and he was hurt in the last game of the season and they still killed us.

    Brady ended up with 30+ TD's and less than 10 picks. It was sick. I think the Pat's are back to video taping again :)!!
     
  22. JMHPhin

    JMHPhin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    LOL again miss the point or are you intentionally avoiding it?

    The thread OP said why is it the way it is, it is because people are dismissive of others opinions. I dont dismiss your opinion, chances are it is correct. But I made the point that when you write a response in absolutes, then it COMES OFF as dismissive. So when that happens you get the same in return.

    I realize it is your opinion and it is an educated opinion at that, but you dont and many others dont, and I dont always, write repsonses as opinions. cant tell inflection easily in teh written word, so tone of posts can be misconstrued so my point was is that people including me need to be cognizant of how we word responses, not change the opinion that is behind it
     
  23. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

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    So in the WR's hands isn't where it's supposed to be?
     
  24. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I would also like to point out that the ball placement is an issue for me specifically because of the nature of the throw. The ball was literally 13 yards through the air and unpressured. At that distance, to be off by about 2 to 3 feet, is a miss. We're not talking about a throw that went 30 yards through the air and that the receiver is therefore expected to adjust to and run under because a QB can only be expected to be so accurate at greater distances. We're talking about a routine throw that NFL quarterbacks should have been bullseyeing in practice since they were 15 years old.

    If you're not in the habit of placing the ball well then you're going to have less touchdowns, less completions, less yards, and more interceptions. That's the way of it, even if the delta is all still "catchable".
     
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  25. JMHPhin

    JMHPhin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    It is the tone, like well you didnt conc=vince me so I am still right. When you say well my assessment didnt change, who saidit should, who expected it to, who was trying to? Who was doing anything other than giving their own point of view.

    When you say like "well i disagree becuase had he put it more out front IMO it decreased teh risk of it being batted in teh air and made the catch easier" Then you arent dismissive of teh poster you are bringing something to teh debate that says this is why I disagree. '

    When you just say well my position doesnt change, what is teh point of the reply? by not replying you are indicating you disagree and arent arguing. It is the same as coming out and saying " no you are wrong, next"
     
  26. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

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    Of course ELITE, proven QB's overcome those things. I don't think anyone here has claimed that Henne is elite. Why is it that when someone shows that P. Manning struggled under certain circumstances or if Brady did etc etc it's called stupid for comparing them to Henne, yet some think it's OK to bash Henne for not being P. Manning. I'm sorry to tell you all...P. Manning will most likley retire as the greatest to ever have played the game. That's not the argument.

    Brady, last season and in his 2007 seaosn, played above his average skill set. He's been typically an ~85 QBR player with about 25-28 TD's and 12-14 INT's per season. He's had two phenominal seasons. If Brady were to have been drafted on this team at the time Henne was some here would be calling for his getting cut too.

    All I want is to see Henne play when he gets a better team around him and gets some NFL experience. He's got some experience now, let's see how good his team is though. And let's at least give him until after he veyr first preseason game with this new team and offense to kill the guy.
     
  27. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    It has to be in his hands in a certain spot. Just hitting the hands alone isn't necessarily good enough. Even if Fasano catches (which he absolutely should have), he wouldn't have had the same opportunity for YAC if the ball had been placed better.
     
  28. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I'm not avoiding anything. You are literally projecting tone, projecting attitude, and projecting things that I am "implying" onto my posts that are not there. That is a problem with you, it is not a problem with me. Above is a really great example. You took simple statement from me, a simple and apropos response, and you started to project things like "arrogance" and stuff onto it that obviously others do not feel was even remotely there.

    So don't read my posts. We'd all be better off for it.
     
  29. JMHPhin

    JMHPhin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    See I see your point with this. And i guess I can see what you are saying. I just feel it is hard to say the int was on henne if it hit his hands and got into his chest, it means fasano got his body turned to the throw. So I do think it is on Fasano but could and should have been a better throw, as much as a receiver needs to help his qb, a qb can do alot to help his receiver.

    I think it also says something that Henne and fasano stayed after practice and worked on timing
     
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  30. xphinfanx

    xphinfanx Stay strong my friends.

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    This is why I learned how nice the ignore feature can be.
     
  31. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

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    2 to 3 FEET?!? lol...

    [video=youtube;0b-_F6HNlCI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0b-_F6HNlCI&feature=related[/video]


    What do you think about this routine throw? And this was playoffs...after 9 seasons of play...and 4 Super Bowl appearances...lol

    Brady sucks. He can't throw a pass that any 15 year old can.
     
  32. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

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    I don't think JMH is the only poster writing these things. I'd say at least half a dozen are and I'd wager that more would but don't want to get caught up in the B.S.
     
  33. JMHPhin

    JMHPhin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    LOL and there is no arrogance there?

    I am not pojecting anything. Others have said teh same thing about you. some dont see it. Where have I ever said my position take on posts represent everyone elses LMAO.

    It is my opinion never said it was anyone elses.

    I read your posts that are actual posts as they are insightful, I acknowledge you are a knowledgable intelligent poster that puts in the time.

    My point wasnt to say "CK is arrogant" My original post way back wasnt even about you or anyone in particular, it was about tone in repsonses that can be taken as dismissive. When we discuss an issue and I go out of my way to state why I think something, and there is a 1 sentence response that says well my position hasnt changed IMO it comes off as dismissive and arrogant as if teh point was to sway your opinion. We have had this discussion before. I dont care if I change your opinion, I am just trying to have a discussion. I also dont like feeling my opinion is dismissed out of hand. When I am wrong I am wrong, but when the future isnt known, it hasnt been proven wrong.

    Anyway arrrogance may be too strong, maybe comes off as dismissive.
     
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  34. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    There are passes throughout the league that are slightly less than perfect every week, that get caught and if that one had been caught, IMO there is no way it generates 20 plus pages of posts discussing it.
     
  35. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Listen, you seem like a nice guy. But you need to learn the value of the Ignore List.

    If you're incapable of reading what I write without the voice in your head projecting all kinds of negative connotations, tone and attitude, that I would insist are really not there, then you should probably just put me on your Ignore List. The net effect is that you write about this voice in your head that you've projected onto me, and if you read up and read your own posts, read how you've described me, it's actually a very offensive and insulting picture you keep trying to paint of me. I know you would say that it's not you that's doing it, it's me that's painting myself that way, but that's not really true. You don't HAVE to read the connotations, tone and attitude into the words on the screen the way you are, you can make a conscious choice not to do that. You don't HAVE to see that cloud as a castle with a broken tower. And if you have no control over it, you certainly don't have to act upon those thoughts by posting inflammatory responses and/or outwardly painting me in such a bad light.

    I make liberal use of the Ignore List, I suggest you do the same.
     
  36. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    For that pass to have been off target 2-3 ft, it would had to been outside the framework of Fasano's body. It was well within the framework of his body.
     
  37. JMHPhin

    JMHPhin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I dont want to ignore CK. He is insightful and knowledgeable. Nor do I think he actually posts with the intent to be arrogant. That was never my point, it was simply how I myself read some of his and others posts. It is also how some of my posts came off when I read them back. The point of thread is why debates get heated over henne, that is my reason why, it is how a post is interpreted and not what the message said. That is all I was trying to say, is that EVERYNE should try to be careful how they word their response so it doesnt come off as dismiisive.

    And I will definitely admit I am a smartass that sometimes post after initial read without sitting back a second and re-reading w/o emotion. That is something I have tried to work on. Succeeding but fall back sometimes. It is hard to get intent in words sometimes, in conversation you can tell by body language, eyes, volume tone etc that cant on a board. So I was just saying that if we want the heat to go away that is maybe one way to do that
     
  38. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    That wasn't a routine throw. How many throws in the NFL are after two play action fakes, and a screen? Plus he didn't have time to set and throw and threw the ball off of his back foot, due to the fact that the play was a screen.
     
  39. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    That was an awful throw.

    I'm not sure how its relevant to this discussion though. Are you suggesting that every QB makes bad throws? Nobody disagrees. Thats not relevant when debating whether Henne's throw was where it should have been on or not.
     
  40. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    You do realize that Fasano's body is more than a foot wide.
     

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