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The Good and the Bad...

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Paul 13, Aug 12, 2011.

  1. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    You say that 3 feet off the proper location on a 3 step drop Y out pattern where the ball goes 13 yards through the air is not a "mistake". That's fine. That's the standard you hold NFL quarterbacks accountable to. I hold them to a different standard. The ones that consistently put the ball in the right location on that through and others like it, do a lot better than the ones that don't, IMO.
     
  2. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Well, I could buy that. But, I do feel like the discussion has shined the light of truth (albeit begrudgingly) on specific issues. For instance, a bunch of people had taken it for granted that Dunta Robinson was only 2 or 3 yards away from Fasano when the ball arrived. Now it seems, we've narrowed it down to between 6 and 7 yards, which is what I'd been insisting. Before when I had said that the ball was off by about 3 feet or just under it, I think that idea was met with some derision. Now, I think I showed very clearly with the snapshots that I wasn't very far off, if at all. Before, everyone kept obsessing about the blame being on one guy and saying I don't know how anyone can blame Henne, etc. Now, I think people are starting to realize nobody is arguing that, just arguing that both players made mistakes on the play.

    It may be progress as slow as the CBA negotiations, but it's progress nonetheless.
     
  3. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    Exactly, it is the difference between having a John Kitna (one of my favorite quarterbacks) who throws the ball, "good enough," and having a Drew Brees(a qb that I am not a big fan of) who throws the ball pretty well.

    Kitna has a lot of interceptions that are right off of the receivers hands. One season me and my friend were joking that he would have at least one a game. We called it the Kitna play. His poor ball placement, which a lot of the time is on the outside shoulder. That is one of the worst places to throw a ball because there is a better chance of the ball bouncing off of the shoulder and landing in the defenses hands.

    It is something that is also well known. I watched a Monday Night Quarterback where Jaws had an entire segment on the importance of ball placement and he mentioned how a pass to Fasano is a poor throw on the QB.
     
  4. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Are you saying Jaws dissected this play tonight on MNF, like we've been doing, and came to the same conclusion that it was a poor throw?
     
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  5. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    I get what you're saying, and some of these occasions bug the heck out of me too, but I just have a different opinion for this specific instance. I'm actually tired of watching QBs duck out at the faintest glimpse of pressure. I've seen it enough at Clemson recently to make me wanna be a Gamecock fan. I actually like that Henne wasn't phased by Weatherspoon on that play. Maybe, just maybe Henne's vision is to the point where he sees Thomas in his peripheral moving into position, and as such doesn't let Spoon scare him into a rash decision..... and maybe Henne understands it's Thomas's responsibility to pick him up.

    Personally, I don't mind him just "standing there" b/c it was a 3 step drop where he knows his guy has a beat on the defender and he can get the ball out quickly. If this is a 7 step drop and he does the same casual thing while waiting for the play to develop, then I'm sitting with you throwing peanut shells at the guy. Where you see him as being "casual", I see him as being "unwavering" in the face of adversity. But I can't say that you're wrong or I'm right b/c I haven't spoken to Henne about it. IMO there's a time to play un-scared, and there's a time to not. IMO this is a circumstance where you stand tall and make the throw. I've seen Kyle Parker take himself out of enough plays b/c he was doing TOO MUCH anticipating and simply COULDN'T stand tall and make the throw.

    Henne showed later on that when he needs to move in the face of imminent danger, he's gotten MUCH better at it, even respectably so. Doing so twice within a few drives is a positive step forward IMO. No pun intended.

    Where would you have liked him to react? Where slide his feet? He was already in position while he was beginning his delivery. If he slid left, then Pouncey is definitely in his lane. If he slides right, then he's putting Weatherspoon directly in his throwing lane which has an even greater chance for not being completed. If he slides backward, then he also potentially puts Pouncey into his throwing lane. This is still all meaningless b/c it's a 3 step drop where he sees Fasano and is quickly getting rid of the ball.

    There's no reason to think you need to move around AT ALL when you see your back in position to pick up Weatherspoon. Doing that is the definition of "zero composure" IMO. You don't know if Thomas is whiffing his block. You dont know if Thomas is allowing his guy around his left or right. Initially Henne's lane is open and Weatherspoon is to the right of Thomas. There's no reason to slide anywhere.

    Thomas deserves credit for picking up the blitzer and getting himself in position to make the block. He deserve no credit for whiffing on the block after he gets there. But he's a rookie, so it's completely understandable. I'd rather see him recognize it and fail to execute rather than not recognize it at all.
    It's understandable that this seems annoying, but I'm not sure what else he's supposed to do besides appear to look casual here. It's a 3 step drop; he has to wait for Fasano to reach his break; and he gets rid of the ball at the earliest time he could've possibly thrown it. Any sooner and Fasano is wearing it for a face mask.

    Henne's arm may very well have not been hit, but from what I can tell (and from years of throwing), his follow through changes abruptly in a manner that indicates his arm was either hit or he intentionally held back at the last second to prevent it from being it hit when he sees Thomas whiff on the block.
     
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  6. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    I disagree with that. There are situational standards that are separate from normal standards. If you want to treat them as one in the same, then you're certainly entitled to that belief.

    In a perfect world under ideal throwing circumstances (3 step drop, clear throwing lane, no one in his face.... bing bang boom, done), then yes, Henne's throw merits some blame. "Mistake" however is an inappropriate adjective altogether IMO. If Fasano does his job, there's no mistake; there's only a 7-8 yard completion, leaving us in a favorable 2nd & short.

    Unfortunately, there are plenty of non perfect-world type throws. This happened to be one of them. I'm certainly not holding a QB to one standard when the situation dictates another. I just don't agree with that. IMO that's no different than treating all "catch opportunities" the same even though one of them might've been a one handed effort. Do you then say, "Well it hit him in his outstretched left hand so he should've caught it just like the one that hit him in the basket."?

    Do you treat a missed, diving, shoe-string tackle attempt the same as missing a stop in the hole?

    How about a 55 yard FG compared to a 30 yarder?
     
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  7. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    I agree with this. I'd be an idiot not to. lol.

    We all know that Henne doesn't have Brees or Montana accuracy (they also don't have his arm); however, how do you respond to Henne having the lowest percentage of off-thrown passes & broken up passes of all the 2006 and younger QBs?
     
  8. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    a poor throw is different than a mistake.... and I'm inclined to believe Jaws didn't rewatch the play 100 times to completely break it down. He most likely saw it once, saw the end location of the pass, and jumped to a quick conclusion w/o dissecting the play to see who was where or notice that Henne's delivery was impeded.

    Plus, a retired QB announcer like Jaws is going to be entirely more critical of the pass.
     
  9. GridIronKing34

    GridIronKing34 Silently Judging You

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    I never seen that, but maybe I missed it.
     
  10. JMHPhin

    JMHPhin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Michael Irvin said that henne should have lead him further. Hey maybe he should have. Maybe there was 2 nmistakes but Fasano caused the int by letting the ball hit his chest, as Con said he had his hands within the frame of his body, he wasnt extended. The thing is we can argue whether the db was beg=hind him by x yards or y # of yards, we dont know whether Henne intended it behind or not. I think it is plausible as it isnt just me that thought so. It may be more likely a timing issue as Irvin said he saw that in practice and said that play would be trouble. He said because it is such a short route the ball is on teh receiver quickly, so because it was on him and behind, that is what caused him to let it hit his chest. He also said as a receiver you have to make that catch.

    So who knows but either way I wish the mistakes would end so we can stop arguing this point
     
  11. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    Yes, I agree that idea was met with something. To me more like disbelief or skepticism. You said before the pass ideally should have been thrown to his front shoulder. Most of us here seem to agree the pass actually arrived very close to, if not smack dab at the 0 in his number 80. Then you said the pass was 2-3 ft off target. Now, I am a pretty big person. 6'3 and 290 and can lift my a little over my own weight 6 times or so, so not totally just a fat slob. As big and broad across the upper body as the 6'4 and 255 lb Fasano I'd guess? From my right anterior delt (where you said ideally the pass should have been) to my left anterior delt, which is close to where the ball hit him, is not 2-3 feet apart. I just had myself measured with a cloth tape. From the front center of my right delt to the left delt front center is 18.5 inches. Or so the measuring person told me. That does not add up to a pass being 2-3 feet off target. Considering the 0 of the #80 would be slightly inside my left front delt, the distance between the ideal location for the pass to arrive to where it really did, is a little less than a foot and a half.
    While I would agree the pass was not located 100% perfectly, it was located well inside the receiving radius that any pro receiver is expected to catch passes in.
     
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  12. Paul 13

    Paul 13 Chaotic Neutral & Unstable Genius Staff Member

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    ESPN sportscenter did have our Chad Henne as the most disappointing player over the weekend.

    We'll get this thread up to 1,000 posts today :sidelol:
     
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  13. DePhinistr8

    DePhinistr8 Season Ticket Holder

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    Good thing I boycott ESPN. I've never seen so many sports "experts" know less about the sports they cover than average fans. Unless they are showing a 'phins game, I don't watch them.
     
  14. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Hah, nice.
     
  15. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    The forum should offer some kind of prize for the person who makes post 1,000 in this thread, but it has to be something like pertaining to the discussion, not just one or two words. :up:
     
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  16. DePhinistr8

    DePhinistr8 Season Ticket Holder

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    So "Henne Sucks" or "Henne Rocks" doesn't count? There go my chances.
     
  17. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    Henne rocks would be ok. But not that other one. ;)
     
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  18. Paul 13

    Paul 13 Chaotic Neutral & Unstable Genius Staff Member

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    I totally agree. I'm thinking a choice between one of those Chinese knockoff Chad Henne jerseys or a fancy Anthony Fasano hands free beer stein.
     
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  19. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

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    You didn't miss anything. It never happened.

    Knowingly or not Dupree is being deceptive with his wording. Jaws, awhile back, has talked about ball placement. This was BEFORE the Dolphins game and he never mentioned a throw to Fasano. Dupree, again knowingly or not, with the way he worded his post could make someone believe that Jaws specifically mentioned that throw when he didn't. Dupree, in his opinion of this throw, is saying that Jaws, based off of his Monday Night QB's talk, would deem it as bad placement.
     
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  20. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

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    I guess from now on when a FG isn't dead center of the goal posts we should only count it as 2 points and call it a "bad placed kick". lol....
     
  21. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    How about a framed color glossy 8x10 photo of CK and Henne standing together with their arms over each others shoulders, you know, like good buddies, and autographed by both. Oh yeah, each of them wearing only speedos. :up:
     
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  22. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

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    I knew that picture would be worth something one day! And my wife thought I was stupid for purchasing it off of eBay.
     
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  23. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    not this play, just plays like it.
     
  24. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    Fasano doesn't routinely make that catch. In fact, unless the tight end is Tony G or Gates or a receiver by nature, there is a good chance for a dropped pass. Running one way and then having to reverse is a much harder catch than you are giving credit.
     
  25. Conuficus

    Conuficus Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Well away from here
    The reason he had to reverse wasn't because of the pass, it was because he bobbled the pass. He didn't have to reverse to have the ball hit his hands. Once the ball bounced up he turned to try and grab it.
     
  26. DePhinistr8

    DePhinistr8 Season Ticket Holder

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    You know what we're all missing in this thread? REAL TALK!
     
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  27. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    I think that injuries to his OL, his WRs/TE's, his knee, the hot and cold (mostly cold) running game he's had to back him up, play calling, among other things, are also a factor.
     
  28. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

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    Even though some tight ends are better at receiving and some are better at blocking (as are WR's), ALL tight ends are "receivers by nature". If they weren't they'd be told to bulk up and play O-Line, or just play LB/DE.
     
  29. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    Speak for yourself! LOL.
     
  30. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    LMAO. You're right. If Henne throws that ball 2-3 how ever many feet further outside and Fasano bobbles it into Robinson's hands then the Henne bashers would say he should've hit Fasano right in the chest instead of leading him into an oncoming defender.

    IMO the ball should've been on the front shoulder, a few inches away from where it ended up. That's what we're talking about here. A few inches on a routine throw in Week 1 of a preseason game when our 3 best offensive players all sat out and we STILL couldn't generate anything resembling a running game to help keep Henne on schedule.

    Not surprising though. It's not like you can criticize Henne's down field accuracy or lack of mobility after a game like that so we've moved on to something else. Can't win indeed.
     
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  31. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    That is not even remotely true.
     
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  32. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    He should. He'd tell you he should. If you are of a different opinion, we are just never going to agree on this subject. So agree, at least, to disagree.
     
  33. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    Fasano is an arm catcher, he cradles the ball in with his arms. He generally has problems with catches that have to do with his hands.
     
  34. Nappy Roots

    Nappy Roots Well-Known Member

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    How in the world do you come up with a few inches? If the ball was suppose to be on his front shoulder and was only a few inches off, it would of still been on his front shoulder..

    \/---------------------\/ that is only a few inches. You cant seriously think the ball was only that far off?
     
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  35. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    I don't think Fasano bobbled the ball b/c it was poorly placed, it just seemed to get on him faster than he expected which would point more to velocity and timing than placement. Either way, it was one throw that we all agree should have been caught.

    I'm interested to hear your thoughts on how Henne (and the 1st team offense) did during the rest of the game. My expectations were pretty low. Are we out of the huddle on time, lined up properly, running the correct plays, are the WRs and QB on the same page? etc. I was late to the thread so perhaps it was already discussed but I think we're all tired of discussing the Immaculate Interception.
     
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  36. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    Body catcher? In that case the QB shouldn't lead him, he should put the ball directly on him. If I had to guess I'd say that's what Henne was trying to do.
     
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  37. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    Depends what you call a few inches. Like Con said, the pass hit him around the 0 in his number 80. If it was intended to hit him in the front(right) shoulder, that would make it between a foot and 18 inches off target. On my body anyway, as it was measured. I'm bigger and at least as broad as Fasano, so close to the same on him.
     
  38. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    Exactly. As a body catcher, where better to receive the pass than on your numbers?
     
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  39. Nappy Roots

    Nappy Roots Well-Known Member

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    In front of you? Especially when your running across the field. Your numbers arent and shouldnt even be facing the QB. So how would a QB hit you in the numbers. That shows in its self he had to rotate his body in order to get in position to make the catch.
     
  40. Paul 13

    Paul 13 Chaotic Neutral & Unstable Genius Staff Member

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    ummm... :yes:
     

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