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Re-Try: Ten Thoughts on First Half of Panthers Preseason Game

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by ckparrothead, Aug 21, 2011.

  1. alen1

    alen1 New Member

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    Moss? Harrison? That's two. :)
     
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  2. Jaj

    Jaj Registered

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    All I know is that if he gets the job done against T.B. too there's a theme of ugly play-good results going.
     
  3. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    Harrison top 10 ever? Ehhhh I havent thought about it but of hand im not sure he is.
     
  4. alen1

    alen1 New Member

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    Those lists are always hard to do. Hate them lol.
     
  5. Third Man

    Third Man Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Hartline is a #4 on a good team, I think. The comparisons to all the white receivers are, of course, overdone. The guy he actually reminds me of is James Jones of the Packers. Hartline has more consistent hands but Jones is a more impressive overall athlete even though he tested a bit worse than Hartline at the combine. Hartline has poor body control, in particular, does not catch the ball well in a crowd and trips over his own feet at times. Teams don't really seem to fear or respect him, and I don't particularly blame them.
     
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  6. PHINANALYST

    PHINANALYST Well-Known Member

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    CK, haven't had the opportunity to watch either preseason game yet, but based off of most posts - would submit that we do and have not adequately addressed our OL.

    I was not a fan (and remain so) of moving Vernon to G, or getting Colombo to play T. I'm not sure what the value added to either of these moves really are. Vernon is a big dude, but his overall lack of athleticism and mobility are obvious. Colombo, even though I listed him as possible signees to bolster the OL -- was meant to plug in at G, not man RT - where he would not be an upgrade over Vernon (albeit a cheaper option). Bottom line to me is that there has been no improvement on the right side of the line.

    We've all chatted about Pouncey and whether or not he should have moved right into the starting C or LG position. I still would have liked to see him at LG for this year ... but i do understand a decision to start him there to accelerate his learning curve for next year - when he would come back bigger, stronger and have a year's worth of experience of making line calls.

    Hopefully, a trade is in the works .... i am 'ok' with Garner manning the RT position for the year though. Problem is we'd have zero depth at T.

    I am not concerned about the DL ... and we should see the best ILB play we've seen in probably more than a decade.

    I am not excited about JT returning .... he is a shell of what he was 4+ years ago -- and will be shocked if he is not worn down by mid season. I am very interested to see how the OLB positions for depth and STs pan out.

    There is no doubt that teams concentrated on bracketing Marshall last year .... will be interesting to see how the PATSIES defend come week 1. Agree about moving him around ... but really outside of adding Bush - what changes have we made. We need more consistency out of the TE position ... conversely, I do like what Daboll is doing with the offense.

    Bottom line, i think Daboll is going be a nice addition .... i just want to see the improvement in the execution.

    On defense, outside of OLB and blitz packages to improve pressure -- we should be pretty damn good.

    Lastly, regarding Henne, i have remained steadfast IMHO that he can be successful and lead this team .... he will never be a superstar - but he has the tools to lead this team to a SB; but this year is a make or break year for him - and i think we'll see enough growth in this system to develop faith in his ability to lead this team.
     
  7. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    Charley Taylor was also a speedster. He was good at many things, but there's no denying he was fast. Warfield was also fast. I saw his listed time somewhere as a 4.5, but that was timed while he was in pads (no joke). I know he once ran a 9.5 100 yard dash. Even T.O. had 4.36 40 at the combine. So including Moss and Harrison, basically 50% of that list were speedsters.
     
  8. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Some of my second half thoughts...since I didn't include them...I think I had a lot of the same take as everyone else which is why I didn't focus on it.

    1. The backup/3rd string OLs are a mess. Nate Garner does not belong at Center. I gave him nice, positive grades in the 1st half when he played LT but at C? Not so much. Kopa, Feinga, not doing it for me. Most disappointing is probably Jerry who seems to be getting worse.

    2. Not liking the look of Charles Clay on the line as a true Tight End. Needs to be in the backfield.

    3. Clyde Gates is fast but so is Marlon Moore, who's reminding me of Donald Lee in that he can look so good and get so open but then just not haul in the ball. Come to think of it, David Martin had that problem his first year in Miami too. Maybe could go away?

    4. Nic Grigsby nice job blocking on that one play

    5. Matt Moore seems like a decent backup but no more than that IMO

    6. A.J. Edds is getting closer

    7. Can't watch Ryan Baker without loving him. He's like the new Shane Burton. On the other hand, I can't watch Phil Merling without hating him.

    8. Dedrick Epps is the 2nd best TE on the roster...and he might actually be pretty good. Keep an eye on him, definitely. I thought he was the best of the trio of terror last year (Mastrud, Epps, Shuler).

    9. I want to see Phil Livas more as a receiver. That short striding speed is an asset that should not be wasted.

    10. Seen enough to want to see more of padre's boy Quinton Spears.
     
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  9. Stitches

    Stitches ThePhin's Biggest Killjoy Luxury Box

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    Epps certainly looks better than Mastrud this year IMO. Not sure about Shuler or Brackett, haven't seen either much.

    Spears definitely seems to have some tools worth looking at longer.

    I don't have a problem with Merling really, at least not that I've seen. Baker is certainly a guy who seems to do whatever you need to though.

    And Edds definitely seems solid and I'm not too worried if he regularly sees action in the games.
     
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  10. Stitches

    Stitches ThePhin's Biggest Killjoy Luxury Box

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    Oh, I've been pretty impressed with both rookie RBs too when they have to block in pass pro.
     
  11. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I don't think Edds will make an impact this year, Kevin Burnett's signing has probably ensured that...but from what I'm seeing so far in his first preseason, his first training camp...I look forward to seeing him in 2012.
     
  12. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    If I had to guess, it's Henne's turn to be tested in the redzone next. ???
     
  13. Jaj

    Jaj Registered

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    How's Epps blocking so far? I haven't been able to get any pre-season coverage so all I remember was that it was decent last year.
     
  14. Clipse

    Clipse mediocrity sucks

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    I agree with pretty much everything except Reggie Bush needing that block in the back and the offensive line.

    1. Bush was awesome out there. The most impressive play of the day for me wasn't that long run negated by a block in the back, but that run up the middle where he carried the Carolina DT 4 yards on his back. Bush looks more in shape than I've seen him. I really think this could be a break out year for him, where he finds success running between the tackles. As for Bush dancing, I think that's just something we're going to have to live with.

    2. Carolina isn't a very good football team, but I'd prefer us to look terrific out there, rather than bad.

    3. I agree.

    4. I agree there wasn't a lot of pressure being put on the QB by us. I like Misi, but he's just not a pass rusher. That's not THAT important in Nolan's scheme since he likes SOLB's who can defend the run and pass, but we do need a 3rd down pass rusher type, and I don't think JT is that. On the flipside though, I think our passrushing from our line, is as good as any you're going to find from a 3-4 team. I also believe Dansby and Burnett can rush the passer better than most ILB's you're going to find in this league. So I think we'll be fine.

    5. Our ILB's are studs. I'm not really worried about them vs. the run personally. I think our incredible D-Line will help them a lot. Still, I'd much rather have ILB's that are better against the pass than the run with the way the league is today.

    6. I thought Henne had a good game. I'm still not happy at all at his pathetic accuracy on deep balls. As long as Henne leads the offense to points, I don't care all that much about individual stats, but he absolutely needs to hit those wide open deep throws.

    7. I'm starting to really like this Daboll guy. It's great to see us run a modern day offense... I can't really fault him on that end around. I think most OC's try a little something "unique" once a game. IIRC, Gates ran into one of his blockers in the backfield and completely ruined that play. IDK, I don't giving a guy with Gates elite combination of speed and quickness and end around here and there. Dan Henning made these boneheaded plays several times a game though. But yea, as I said, I think all OC's have a couple plays they wish they didn't run during a game, in hindsight.

    8. I'm not sure if I agree about Gates. He completely burnt his defender twice, but our QB's just couldn't him in stride. As for Thomas, he still has a lot work to do. Let's not forget he's only been playing RB a couple years now, so he's still very raw at the position, much like Sean Smith was at CB, who's becoming a very good coverage guy for us. Running high and ball security can be coached, ballerina feet on a guy that big can't. I like most of the things he did in that game. Showed off those great feet, showed off some very impressive blitz pickups. That dive into the endzone from 5 yards out was really a wtf moment though. I disagree completely with Pouncey not having a good game though. After rewatching the game, I thought he did very good, not counting his high snaps. I do agree he really struggled at the goal line though. I really liked Clay's blocking in this game, but he also had an outstanding catch in the 4th as well.

    9. I can't agree with the O-Line analysis. I thought the line looked extremely good in pass protection. I thought they looked good in run blocking, much, much better than the disaster that was last week. I thought Pouncey looked very good. Liked what I say of Murtha and Garner from a blocking standpoint, but the penalties from Murtha have got to go. I didn't focus much on Carey, so have no comment. Columbo is just terrible though, you'll get no disagreement from me there.

    10. Loving our WR's. I never understood all the hate that Hartline gets. For all of his negatives that people bring up, this guy is ALWAYS open. People talk about how slow he is, yet he seemingly gets open deep every game. I'd love for Gates with his elite speed and quickness to be able to start for us, but it's far from the end of the world if Hartline is our starter.
     
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  15. Clipse

    Clipse mediocrity sucks

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    Ck what did you think of Marvin Mitchell? I liked what I saw. I think he can be a thumper type for us. He's certainly earned a roster spot over Spitler at this point I would say.
     
  16. vt_dolfan

    vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    OK....

    So...who are the two who voted they werent impressed with Daboll's offense...lol. After Dan Henning....I cannot see how 100% of humanity is impressed with Daboll's offense....


    Oh...and for the the people who actually thought we might be in the running for Luck next season. I keep hearing how Carolina is one of the worst teams in the league....well....they got trounced by us...so at least we can put to rest the only winning 2 games theory....
     
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  17. vt_dolfan

    vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    Yeh...I was very impressed with Marvin Mitchell....made an extremely nice open field tackle....
     
  18. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    God bless you, sir. Every time I see one of those especially on that position I'm like...how can we even justify one above the other on some of these guys? Sometimes it's comparing a Picasso to a Monet.
     
  19. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    In the first half I had him noted as having one of the key blocks that allowed Lex Hilliard to finally punch it in from the 1 yard line. In the second half I looked at his blocking and while it was OK, it was only just so. But, he MOVED really well getting up the field into his pass routes...most of the time. Sometimes he seemed to lose concentration.
     
  20. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    There were a couple of plays where he really stood out. But he was in there in the second half a lot and so he had the opportunities to stand out for more than just a couple of plays. One of those things where until he does it more, you can't be TOO high on the guy, but he made a nice play in the backfield during the second half so you keep your eye on him. I thought he and Quinton Spears were worth watching more of, though I think Spears showed me a little more that had me more intrigued.
     
  21. Clipse

    Clipse mediocrity sucks

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    I think Edds can surprise some people this year. Or maybe it's just the Hurricane Homer in me. But this guy was pretty good at Miami. He got injured, and that cost him his starting spot his senior year to Jimmy Graham, who's no slouch himself obviously. I think the guy can offer us what David Martin offered us in 2008, at least.
     
  22. alen1

    alen1 New Member

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    I never understood it. There's so many factors.
     
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  23. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    For the first time I saw things that Epps was doing that actually make me think it's possible he becomes a worthy #2. Possible, but I'm not there yet.
     
  24. alen1

    alen1 New Member

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    I agree with you. On another board I am at often, I wrote that he could surprise a while back. He always had talent I felt. He's certainly better than Mustard and Mickey Mouse.
     
  25. Clipse

    Clipse mediocrity sucks

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    Mastrud and Shuler are just terrible and I doubt Brackett is much better.
     
  26. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    As I recall, Satele gutted it out in 2008 with two bad shoulders. I had no problem with them trying to upgrade at C, but felt Satele should have been kept to compete at G and at least be solid depth. He wasn't an inline road grader but he could get out and hit a moving target in space.
    I think our coaches would like better pulling ability at guard, but are not willing to sacrifice inline power to get it. Trying to have one's cake and eat it too. Healthy Justin Smiley clones do not come along very often. If one could wave a magic wand and cure all of Smiley's physical woes, you'd have the perfect guard.
     
  27. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Which to me is one of the legit knocks on this regime, they sometimes try for "perfect" instead of "good enough" and make poor short term decisions.
     
  28. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    I don't believe Pouncey is 280. When I saw him standing together with Carey, the idea that he looked abnormally light for an OL never entered my mind. Even if he were a little under 300 now, blocking is more about leverage than any other single factor. I'm sure you remember 260 lb Dwight Stephenson manhandling William Perry, whatever he really weighed. 330? 350? The center I consider the most underrated today in the NFL is Todd McClure. I doubt he has been close to 300 ever in his life. Dan Koppen is another top notch center who isn't all that big. IMO, anyone worrying about what Pouncey weighs is doing so needlessly.

    As for the top ten WRs not including any speedsters, do you not consider Randy Moss a speedster? I sure do. He ran some hellacious 40 times when he came into the league. I'd consider Paul Warfield pretty fast too. Charley Taylor and Marvin Harrison could move, and for his era, Don Hutson was considered fast.
     
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  29. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    Polite's blocking fell way off in 2010. He still was very effective running the ball in short yardage situations. PFF rated his blocking at -13.8, but his running was +2.0 and #1 for all FBs.
     
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  30. NaboCane

    NaboCane Banned

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    They're subjective, especially when compiled by one person. But they offer, at minimum, a base frame of reference for conversation so as not to have to establish a new baseline each time.

    This one was compiled by Raymond Berry, Boyd Dowler, Mike Holmgren, Ken Houston, Warren Moon, Keyshawn Johnson and Ted Thompson, in addition to ESPN staff.
     
  31. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    I like that it was done by a panel anyway, and made up of all guys who should have a pretty good clue. Lists done by one so called expert are always more open to 2nd guessing IMO.
     
  32. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    Not pretty, but he got the job done. I counted one really negative play by him. PFF came up with the same conclusion.
     
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  33. Tin Indian

    Tin Indian Rockin' The Bottom End Club Member

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    I just can't see Columbo manning that spot for long. I just don't think he has the physical ability to get it done on a consistant basis anymore. I hope I'm wrong cause at this point Tony seems to want him there.
     
  34. sandcastle

    sandcastle Active Member

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    How should a zone blocking scheme look? It seems to me that the OL is trying to lock-up the 3 primary run-stuffing DL while the free OL move to the 2nd level.

    At times, this lock-up technique looked like sumo wrestling and the inverse of what the Jets preach to their DL (i.e., defeat the man in front of them instead of some gap scheme). I guess this makes sense as these run-stuffing DL were not blowing up plays in the backfield, tripping a runner in the hole, or pulling off a block a making a tackle at the 2nd level.

    I didn't notice Carey or Incognito make a successful block at the 2nd level, but they kept blocking until the end of the play. Perhaps, the plan is for the RB to win the battle with the LB with a cutback and disrupt safeties' angles to find/reach the runner. The other possible wrinkle is how Fasano was used during the running plays, where he frequently lined up on the left. Perhaps, the plan is to free up Jake to block in the middle of the field instead of wasting his run blocking skills on a pass rushing DE/OLB. Or maybe when Jake returns, the running game is less dependent on an inline TE and the same plays are run with a flex TE variation.
     
  35. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    In response to your points:

    1. I was also impressed with R. Bush. I was impressed, but not really surprised. What we saw was the good of Reggie Bush. I think they used him correctly. They got him in space and used him the passing game, etc. He did show decent power between the tackles, but that still won't be his primary role, though it's good to know that he can do so from time to time. I want him to stay healthy. Taking advantage of his speed and hands and abilities in space is what they've been planning and rightfully so. He did dance a bit, but I don't think it was too much nor a big problem. I don't think it was like Ronnie when he would dance and really hesitate before hitting the hole. However, there was one long play where if he just did a quick break to the left he could have broken it longer, but he tried to juke inside. No biggie. Maybe it just looked more open on that side on TV. When they were interviewing Ireland, in the booth, during the game, he kept mentioning how they wanted to increase the overall team speed and big play ability. Bush did just that. I was very impressed and excited about what I saw from him. I hope it continues and he stays healthy. It's funny, but between him, D. Thomas. Clay, etc, I now don't mind seeing the shorter, safer, dump off, check-down type of throws. :pointlol: Also, if Pouncey and or others can eventually be good at pulling and blocking on the move, then maybe we could finally see some killer screens.

    2. I agree. Our excitement should be tempered. Though, it was good and encouraging to see what they're capable of and how they plan to open up the O as well as the D.

    3. I really liked what they did with the multiple packages, etc. I think this year they have to show a bit more this preseason in all phases of the game because they had such a short off-season to work on stuff and to implement new schemes, etc. They're also working in some new cogs in the D, such as Burnett and Odrick, etc. I love our depth on the DL and we're getting deeper all around as a team. That's something for which this staff does deserve some kudos. Also, I can't wait until the term "ball hawking" can be used to describe at least part of our secondary, but overall, I'm still pleased with them as a group.

    4. I didn't see as big a problem with the pass rush. It's not as alarming to me as of yet. You have to give some credit to Newton for being good at flushing from the pocket. That ability actually saved him from being sacked once or twice. JT almost got him and would have had a sack, but Newton scrambled out at the last second. That was one thing he did good that night. I don't think he played good in the game, but he should be able to use his legs well, right off the bat. JT probably would have got most other, slightly less mobile QBs. However, it still concerns me about getting substantial pressure opposite Wake. Teams are going to continue to key in on him and double him, etc. We are going to need to be confident that we can, at times, get good pressure from the other side. I do think that's a concern and my concerns weren't completely alleviated in that game, but I'm not too worried at this point.

    5. Agree. They were great. At the beginning when Dansby, on his own, shot the hole and stuffed that run was sweet. Burnett was solid. It will be great to have a guy who can really cover. I thought he did that really well. That will be great if he can help cover some TEs and slot guys, etc. What's funny is that, on that one play, when he made that good coverage down-field, the dude looked like a Safety. I don't know if it was because of the screen or something, but he looked real lean out there. That's not bad thing. He looked strong and quick, but I was surprised how he looked on that one play. It's actually good for a guy who plays like he does.

    6. I also thought he looked ok, maybe a little better than ok. However, it was against a pretty bad team and his deep ball accuracy is a big concern. He's missed on a few of those throws. As you said and as I said last year, he does leave a lot of throws on the field. Our boy Gates would have a long TD or two if Chad hadn't missed him. However, because Chad can be very good at the shorter and intermediate throws, it was very smart of the staff to make an attempt at surrounding him with players that can be explosive in that regard and make some good YAC. Chad made some great plays. He perfectly led Marshall and hit him in stride on that one play. He made some smart plays and was good at buying some time with his feet and getting out of the pocket. I thought that was an improvement. After the game, he also seemed to have a better demeanor. He seemed more confident and composed and focused, etc. I would love to see him lighten up a bit more and let loose and have some fun or whatever. He sometimes seems too tight and restrained. I actually think this is important because when you lighten up and have fun, it helps you get loose and it gives you a calmness of mind which helps slow the game down. I think that could be a big benefit to him. Hopefully that will come in time if he can continue to have more tastes of success and consistency. It was encouraging and I felt good for him.

    7. I really liked what I saw from Daboll. I like how we intend to open things up and spread things around. He definitely tried to get the ball in space and he really spread the ball to as many players as possible. The disconnect with Marshall is definitely a concern for me. I hope that gets corrected and we start feeding the beast. (I actually like referring to Wake as the beast rather than Marshall. It's more appropriate.:pointlol:)

    8. I like Gates a lot. We both liked him and talked about him a lot before the draft. He would have a couple more long TDs had they been more accurate passes. I didn't see the same problems with Pouncey. I thought he looked pretty good for a rook. I saw him make some solid blocks in the run game. The interior did finally open up a bit more for the run game. He also didn't botch any shotgun snaps. I think once he gets more comfortable, we'll see him do some nice things such as blocking on the move, in space.

    9. Receivers were pretty good. Not much to say on this one. I pretty much covered it in my other responses.


    Good job everyone for keeping this convo on track. Peace! :up:
     
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  36. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    Probably one could come up with ten other WR names that as a group would be close to equal of that one too. By the time they hang up their cleats, Andre Johnson and Larry Fitzgerald will be very likely top ten WRs by anyone's standards.
     
  37. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    I do consider efficiency and effectiveness. Did his man get to the QB and disrupt the pass play? Simple, yes or no. If it is no, then I care more that he kept his man off the QB rather than how pretty he looked doing it. When he was run blocking, did the man he was blocking make the tackle, or did he disengage in time to turn the play into a negative for the offense? That is all I care about. If he looked stylish doing so, is not a major concern to me.

    Even Jake Long before the 2008 draft was scrutinized needlessly by many saying he didn't do this or that well enough to play LT in the NFL. That he had only ever played LT and that he got good results seemed to take a back seat to things like how smooth he looked or not in his kick slide or how well he appeared to move laterally. Many fine folks staked their reputation as a talent evaluator to the belief he'd never be a good pro LT. It seemed to me because he wasn't stylish, smooth or as pretty in getting the job done as say, a Ryan Clady or Walter Jones. Now all those people got egg on their face. My point of view then? There were too many professional talent scouts who believed Jake was a viable NFL LT prospect, so I was not going to believe otherwise.
    I am not comparing Colombo to Jake talent or production wise btw, of course.
     
  38. Jaj

    Jaj Registered

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    I was just about to bring that up (concerning Long). That's why it's important to watch his 09 play pre and post injury to right now to see if he's back in that form. From what I remember that Colombo was a good-very good right tackle.
     
  39. CD13

    CD13 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I think interior OL is going to open more holes than last year. I know you don't like Bush too much, but I think he plays real well this year. His speed and elusiveness are superior, and I think Miami will use him more than NO. Not to mention he seems like he is on mission, went from Heisman, to no Heisman and traded for a backup safety - think the ego needs repair - and he is going to do that this year. Lastly, got to mention Henne played pretty well.
     
  40. Alex13

    Alex13 Tua Time !!! Club Member

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    Berlin,Germany
    i just rewatched the game because i totally ignored your point about the dirt infield on that goalline drive, man are you right, how could i miss this, just look how our line is slipping on that dirt, 2:09 watch murtha totally loose his footing on the play
     
    Paul 13 likes this.

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