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2010 R&R vs Bush & Thomas

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Southbeach, Sep 1, 2011.

  1. Southbeach

    Southbeach Banned

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    In 2010, Ronnie ran 200 times for 734 yards, a 3.7 average, and 5 TD's. He caught 33 passes for 242 yards, a 7.3 average, and 0 TD's.

    Ricky ran 159 times for 673 yards, a 4.2 average, and 2 TD's. He caught 19 passes for 141 yards, a 7.4 average, and 1 TD.

    Will Bush and Thomas exceed those stats, not a hard thing to do, and would anyone here trade Bush or Thomas for Ronnie and/or Ricky right now? I would not.
     
  2. schmolioot

    schmolioot Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    We still ran for over 1400 yards last year, inconsistent as we might have been.

    Daniel Thomas is a rookie who has shown virtually nothing this preseason and Bush has never rushed for even 600 yards (although he does add the receiving yards)

    I highly doubt we rush for anything close to 1400 yards because of the runners we have and the scheme.
     
  3. Nappy Roots

    Nappy Roots Well-Known Member

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    Well the question is, Bush and Thomas have 360 combined carries? If they do, I could see 1400 rushing yards.
     
  4. schmolioot

    schmolioot Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I actually doubt it for two reasons. First, I simply don't think we're going to be very good running the ball which will become obvious early on. Second, this scheme seems to want to be more pass first. While I like the passing concepts, I think it's a little dangerous to have Henne (or any QB for that matter) put the ball up 40 times per game because you are just going to invite more INTs. Since Henne ahs already shown a propensity for throwing them, I am concerned that he throws more, even if he improves his TD numbers.
     
  5. dolfan22

    dolfan22 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    I remember Ricky telling this story late last year , he was stretching , warming up at practice ...Sparano strolls by and says I need a run of 20 yards this week , and Ricky countered with give me more than 6 carries and it isn't an issue.

    Sparano knew he was right and acknowledged that in his Tony way.

    As I see it , we are going to be a passing team and the pre season so far has indicated that.
     
  6. Southbeach

    Southbeach Banned

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    I have to disagree. R&R were overly disappointing last year, and it cannot be entirely put on the OL. I believe Bush and Thomas will exceed the 1400 yards rushing, and far exceed the overall production.
     
  7. Ohio Fanatic

    Ohio Fanatic Twuaddle or bust Club Member

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    As much as D Thomas is struggling, he's a 2nd round pick rookie with no offseason. While I don't expect him to be a fantasy stud anytime soon, I do expect improvement as he gets used to running in our system + Jake Long leading the way.

    It won't surprise me at all if he matches Ronnie's numbers from 2010, or even surpasses it. my question, what would Ronnie and Ricky's number be with Daboll calling the plays? my guess is a nice improvement.
     
  8. schmolioot

    schmolioot Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Like I said, asking Henne to put the ball in the air 40 times per game is a dangerous proposition. Guys like Brady and Manning have proven they can do it while keeping INTs at a reasonable level. But if that's what we're going to do then let's do it with gusto.
     
  9. schmolioot

    schmolioot Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I respect your opinion but it's hard for me to agree when Reggie Bush has never rushed for even 600 yards in a season in his career, and we have seen absolutely nothing out of Thomas yet
     
  10. Southbeach

    Southbeach Banned

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    I believe that Henne's passing, and Daboll, will open up the running game. I can't see the D's loading up with 8 or 9 in the box.
     
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  11. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    I have no doubt that our running backs will be more effective, I'm just not sure if they will run more effectively. One of my big complaints last year was that when we ran we ran too many dives into the middle of the line when we were struggling on the interior. I think this year we'll use more running on the edges and when the run yards are hard to come by, we'll pass to the backs for what amounts to a long handoff. I also think that we'll run out of the spread more and that our better passing game will help open up our running game as well. So while I have little doubt that our overall offense will be improved, I'm not sure if there will be more or less than 1400 rushing yards. And the truth is that as long as the overall offense is improved, I don't think it matters where the production comes from.
     
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  12. Southbeach

    Southbeach Banned

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    And I respect your's as well. I am counting on Bush being healthy, which may or may not happen, and Thomas having a good, not great, year. I'm also looking at the overall production from our RB's as to making more big plays, including pass plays.
     
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  13. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I think right now Daniel Thomas is clearly not as talented as Ricky Williams or Ronnie Brown were in 2010. Reggie Bush is more the question mark because he showed some good things against a bad Panthers defense. I hadn't even considered him a question mark, just a straight up downgrade in terms of ability to take carries and gain yards relative to Ricky Williams and Ronnie Brown...but I'm intrigued by how much he's bulked up this off season and how much power he showed in the Carolina game, although he showed none of it in the Tampa game. So on him, we'll see.

    But overall I would say the running backs were not very good last year at gaining yards on the ground, and they're probably even worse this year. However Reggie does show some very intriguing talents when it comes to catching the ball, and that was missing a year ago. The two will almost surely be worse at pass protecting for Henne than Ricky and Ronnie were, although they'll be asked to do it less.
     
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  14. Southbeach

    Southbeach Banned

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    Good point Raf. I believe that IF the passing game improves, it will open up the run. I also believe that Bush can exceed R&R's 383 receiving yards, and more importantly one TD, by himself.
     
  15. dolfan22

    dolfan22 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    If the preseason is any indicator 40 attempts will be the norm this year.

    To be fair to Henne , he never has been put in a positive situation such as this for the pass game , and to his credit he has worked hard on his own to improve his conditioning and confidence. He has been much much more assertive and that to me is a huge key . We'll see how the season unfolds , but just because he struggled previously where a lot of the blame wasn't just his , doesn't mean that has to occur this time. We need to have the Oline be better though ...
     
  16. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Let's say that last year our RBs were about a 4 on a scale of 1 to 10...in terms of gaining yards on the ground. This year I think we're straddling a 3.
     
  17. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    I agree that on a pure talent basis RW and RB were better. I just believe they were used so poorly that most of that talent was wasted.

    I think that it's too simplistic to just say 40 pass attempts are good or bad. It depends on the types of attempts. Some passes are easier to complete and pose less risk. From what I've seen so far, I expect there will be fewer mistakes b/c even with more overall attempts there should be fewer difficult or risky pass attempts.
     
  18. the 23rd

    the 23rd a.k.a. Rio

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    Thomas was drafted & is an unknown, anything can happen with a rookie running back
    the real issues:
    1) Williams & Brown for Bush & Johnson straight-up looks like a relatively even swap & an unnecessary move.
    Sparano could have picked up Bush & kept one of our own veterans on the roster. I found it all very confusing.
    2) If you consider contracts, we may have gotten more bang for our buck with Williams & Brown. Sparano would have been well advised to put aside his personal issues & avoided his need for change to appear to be moving forward, focusing on the real problem.
    3) The real problem was then & continues to be the offensive line not the running stable. I think we should have picked up the best Left Guard available in free-agency. Depending on Pouncey in his rookie year to make the fix is simply not prudent, although I liked the draft choice. We shall see, so far it looks like I was right. Having said that, Sparano will have the final word in this argument. You can't dispute results.
     
  19. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    What have you seen so far to support this? There have been more miscues in the passing game this preseason in limited time than there were even a year ago.
     
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  20. Southbeach

    Southbeach Banned

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    I have to disagree CK. Last year, we were maybe a 4 overall. This year, I expect a 6, maybe a 7, in overall production, based on being healthy.

    I do believe the position was upgraded but, the jury is still out.
     
  21. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    I see easier passes to the backs in the flats. I also see Bush and Marshall getting better separation. I also disagree that there have been more miscues than last year in the passing game. Last year I saw Henne placed in more situations where his options were limited to forcing the ball in, throw it away or take the sack. This year I see a Henne who is much more likely to either throw it away or just run for a few yards rather than force it in there.
     
  22. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    This year there have been several instances of a guy running a wrong route, there was a receiver pop-up on a poorly placed ball, there was a receiver fumble, an interception on a poor decision combined with yet another wrong route, sacks one of which resuled in a fumble near the offense's own goal line (which could have easily been scooped up for a TD), and 25 offensive penalties which is tied for 6th most this preseason.

    Forgive me but...I'm not seeing this mistake-free football that you are. I'm seeing a complicated scheme that involves a lot of route sight adjustments and full freedom to audible to any play at the line of scrimmage, which necessitates excellent communication at all times. I'm seeing a lot of mistakes that probably owe themselves to this increase in offensive complexity. Just in the 13 drives against 1st string defense we've see 3 true turnovers and another turnover on downs. We've also seen all those penalties, and a fair number of times Chad Henne throwing the ball on a route he thinks should be run whereas the receiver is actually running a different route.
     
  23. Larryfinfan

    Larryfinfan 17-0...Priceless Club Member

    Yeah, we rushed for 1400 yrs, but we couldn't get yards when we had to, like close out a game. That's a big difference. I don't know that we'll reach that figure either, but more for the scheme reasons than anything to do with whether Bush and Thomas can do the job.
     
  24. Larryfinfan

    Larryfinfan 17-0...Priceless Club Member

    I can't argue the moves Ireland made to dump R&R. RW is done and somewhat of a nuisance to the locker room. He had lost a step and was not the same power back as when he was younger. I'd have been ok with keeping Brown around but he too had reached his peak. He'll be on the downswing, physically, from here on in. If you question that statement, why is it that 31 other teams also didn't think he was good enough/capable for a feature back role ?? I don't have an issue with those moves.

    From a pure swap out perspective, a healthy and happy R&R might have done better on the ground than our current stable of RBs this year, maybe. At least with this group, we may have a couple of years of productivity out of the group and even more from Thomas. As to drafting Thomas, I think they had to make a move in the draft, not knowing what or how FA was going to work out this year. The other thing we don't know is whether or not either back really wanted to stay here. It appeared that Ricky, at the very least, would have taken less money to play elsewhere. None of us are, rightfully, sold on Thomas yet. We'll see. You can argue the injury issue with Bush, but that would have been the same argument you'd use on Brown and Williams. Can Bush be that feature back?? Don't know, but we do know that neither R nor R could have been that back...and neither can be as explosive as Bush might be...
     
  25. HULKFish

    HULKFish Artist and Scribe

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    I miss Ronnie and Ricky, but I'd say they atleast equal last year, with big plays instead of a pile of dust... CHUNK YARDS!
     
  26. Jaj

    Jaj Registered

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    Larry is going to be mentioned in this conversation as well. As I go back and watch some highlights he's certainly a good goal-line runner, capable of redirecting after contact.

    There was a mention by someone in the forum that little has changed with Miami's offense since they can march up and down the field but rarely score. That's not really true. The change this year is that Miami's trouble is at the goal-line rather than at the 20 or 30 yard line. The three wide formations and the lack of stupid PA really have helped the offense and most of all I think it's Reggie Bush's ability to keep yardage churning. It's at the goal line where Miami loses that edge since it doesn't have as much room for the three top WRs and the pass rush has overwhelmed the OL. An easy way to fix this would be to get another good red zone target and use Larry Johnson. A second very capable TE would be such a guy.
     
  27. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I don't know that I would forecast Larry Johnson to make the roster at this point.
     
  28. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    I'm not saying mistake-free. I've been watching a ton of preseason games and I think mistakes and poor execution are up league-wide, presumably due to the lockout. What I'm saying is that Henne will have easier passes and decisions than the year before, so I expect his INT total to be lower.
     
  29. 5thAmendment

    5thAmendment Banned

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    1400 = 87 yds per game. I don't see why anyone would "highly doubt" that we can't have a running game that's at least as awful as last year's.
     
  30. texasPHINSfan

    texasPHINSfan New Member

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    I agree. We'll be a 100% run-first team, no doubt!
     
  31. 5thAmendment

    5thAmendment Banned

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    We're installing new offense on the fly, with rookies at RB, WR, TE and C. It's ridiculous to think there wouldn't be some hiccups in the early going. To this point, the offense has done OK, pretty well when all things are considered.

    I think the check down will be one of Henne's best assets this year, instead of using 7 guys to protect we'll send 5 guys out and if Henne doesn't see it, he can get it to Bush or Thomas, both of whom are good pass catchers. That alone should cut down the number of times he's tempted to force the ball into coverage. The ability to option, the freedom to improvise that Marshall complained about at the end of last year, that should help also. We won't know for sure till the season starts though.
     
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  32. 5thAmendment

    5thAmendment Banned

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    All good points. But rest assured, we were not using our REAL goal line plays in those spots, and why would we? No fades to Marshall, no post up moves by Fasano, no crossing routes, no WC, no play action whatsoever. Anyone complaining about the two times we had trouble scoring inside the 5 is basically searching for something to be negative about.
     
  33. Southbeach

    Southbeach Banned

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    I pretty much take preseason for what it is. On the OL. Big Jake is like a BLAZING SUN than day compared to Murtha's night. Cog has been solid, same as last year, and will be better with Long in there. Pouncey has looked pretty good but, is still a rookie learning the game. Carey has looked bad but, I know, after watching him since his days at "The U" that IF he is healthy, he can and will block. I have been looking for Detective Colombo to find out what we see in RT Colombo and his lost skills. I will let the forum know if I find an answer.
     
  34. Southbeach

    Southbeach Banned

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    How many playoff teams had a "power" RB scoring TD's in the red zone last year?
     
  35. RevRick

    RevRick Long Haired Leaping Gnome Club Member

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    But, there's always a "yeahbut." There are going to be times when it is vital to be able to run the ball effectively! Late in the 4th qtr, ahead by less than 7, deep in your own end of the field, you had better be able to gut out the tough yardage. Not every game is going to be a shootout. That is my biggest concern with the O line, the RB's and the new OC. In the "oulde" days, when the '71, '72, '73 teams needed a third and three converted, between the line and the running backs, one of whom everyone in the Western Hemisphere knew would get the ball, managed to convert those downs consistently. Most recently that has not been done with any consistency at all - and it is not yet clear that the most recent propensity will change (read the underachieving right side of the offensive line!) Unless that does change, we are going to have some palm sweating, teeth clenching, screaming at the television screen scenarios in the homes of Dolphins fans everywhere.
     
  36. DHPVW

    DHPVW DuB addict

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    I think it is just too funny how many people on this forum were saying that Thomas was going to be so much better than Ronnie Brown and how washed up Brown was last year......LMAO!! Imo Thomas was VERY overrated and was a waste of a pick and I said it from the day one. Ronnie was screwed last season whether it was a lack of carries or the ****ty Oline or even the doomed WC formation.....Ricky saw the same. I don't think our running game will be very good this year and it scares me. If all we are gonna do is come out and spread this year, we are setting Henne and our offense up for failure. We better get something going on the ground or I think it will end up being another bad year for the Fins
     
  37. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    IMO, barring injury, Thomas can equal or exceed Brown's stats for combined yards and TDs.

    Bush can easily exceed Ricky's too. Maybe slightly less rushing but 3x as many receiving yards at least.
     
  38. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    My gawd, you are hard on the rookie to say he's shown nothing. Maybe not an all world showing but 31 carries for 109 yds and 3 catches for 51 yds is hardly "virtually nothing". Considering his first preseason it was decent.

    Mark Ingram had 19 carries for 55 yds, and 3 catches for 28...that would much better fit a reasonable definition of showing nothing.

    edit: Actually as a team, we rushed for 1643 yds last season, not just 1400 or so.
     
  39. arsenal

    arsenal Sunglasses and advil

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    Bush will have more of an impact than Ricky or Ronnie... not necessarily just rushing out of the backfield, but mis-matches he'll create, and coverages he'll help dictate... he creates problems for a defense that will open up more than Ricky or Ronnie could...

    i think we'll rush better this year because our offense will be different, we'll take shots down the field, we'll spread out formations, and therefore we'll see less defenders in the box...

    I think Daniel Thomas will be fine, and will surprise a lot of people, dont know why hes getting so much flack off of one bad goal line series but i like what ive seen from him hitting holes, burst, and his hands...
     

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