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Hits on Quarterback

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by ckparrothead, Sep 23, 2011.

  1. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I've been talking about this all week but I think it deserves a little more exploration.

    I'm looking at Chad Henne's stats and his tape, and this guy is getting hit WAY too much.

    Here's a measurement:

    Total Hits on QB = Number of QB Hits that Pro Football Focus records, plus the number of QB Sacks that they record, and then add in about 1/3rd of all QB runs (non-Kneel Downs).

    Note: The reason I did 1/3rd of all QB runs is because I went ahead and watched every single Chad Henne scramble/run this year and he took hits from defenders on only 3 of the 9. In the NFL, QBs are allowed to slide, and many make liberal use of that. They also run out of bounds. Henne is no exception. Surprisingly, it doesn't matter really all THAT much whether you assume 1/3rd of all runs/scrambles end with a hit, or half, or whatever. So I'd just take it as it is.

    Here's a team by team look at how many Hits on QB were taken in 2010:

    [​IMG]

    This is a big concern. I know the immediate instinct is to fully blame the OL but it's kind of a community responsibility not to get the QB hit so much. There have been changes made to the way Chad Henne is coached to play, as well as changes made to the offensive system which now focuses a lot less on protecting the QB inside the pocket than Dan Henning used to.

    At this rate, and we're only 2 games in so this could definitely reverse, but at this rate Chad Henne will not survive the season, IMO.
     
  2. Disnardo

    Disnardo Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    So Chris...

    Do you think the OC should set up max protection for Henne again, and go away from the Spread O???

    Or really the problem lies on the OL... but you are suggesting that the coaches are responsible for the QB's protection, but they don't place a hand on anybody...
     
  3. fin13

    fin13 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    It would be interesting to separate the data into first game vs 2nd game and see how different the extrapolated numbers are.
    Based on your analysis Henne may not last 8 games
     
  4. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    The coaches, as always, set the table, while the players choose what to eat and how much.

    So yes, there are some things the coaches could do to get control of this situation, which I believe is pretty dire. There are also things the players need to do. The OL most definitely needs to block better. But Chad Henne is playing a little too fast and loose, and it's going to get him killed.
     
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  5. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    He got hit 16 times in the Patriots game, and 11 times in the Houston game.

    That may seem like downward trajectory, but it really isn't. In the Patriots game, there were 60 total pass + run snaps for Henne. In the Texans game, there were only 36 of them. So in the 1st game he was getting hit once every 3.8 snaps, and in the second game he was getting hit once every 3.3 snaps...not really a significant difference.
     
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  6. firedan

    firedan Well-Known Member

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    Well there are varying degrees in being hit with some being worse than others,at times a big hit is not as bad as it looks and other times it is worse than it appears, not at all football related but I think about how Nascars Dale Ernhart was killed in a wreck that didn't seem that bad at the time or even Vicks hit last week did not appear to me as a huge hit at the time.They do add up though and the Oline has to do better.
     
  7. PhinGeneral

    PhinGeneral PC Texas A&M, Bro Club Member

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    OK, but an inordinate number of QB hits also increases the chances that one of those hits will knock Henne out for a substantial period of time.
     
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  8. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Yes. This. Obviously the assumption that "a hit is a hit is a hit" is not an accurate one as everyone knows that all hits are not created equal. But until/unless someone can demonstrate that the distribution of Chad Henne's hits differs on a general basis (mean, standard deviation, kurtosis, etc) from those of the other quarterbacks, I'd just assume skip the devil's advocacy and assume that the randomness of the particular viciousness of hits is the same for most if not all of the quarterbacks in question.
     
  9. xphinfanx

    xphinfanx Stay strong my friends.

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    Any one hit can possibly be the season ending hit. I think some QBs put themselves in more bad oppertunities than others.
     
  10. fin13

    fin13 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Good one!!!!
     
  11. Disnardo

    Disnardo Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    So Chris...

    Being Chad, he should be coached to throw the ball Out of Bounds, and not to extend the plays, when he is under pressure or about to get hit???

    That is the one thing that we complained about in Hennes short career...

    I guess the only thing this OC can do is again, work Henne out of Max Protection, and hope that the 2 Wide Receivers can get open in the 3-4 seconds he has to throw the football...

    Or the Run game can continue to improve, which will give him an extra second or two to find the open receivers...

    What must they do in this dire OL that can help Henne out without negatively impact gains made through the new scheme???
     
  12. Nappy Roots

    Nappy Roots Well-Known Member

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    I'll hold off judgement for the next couple games, the running game getting going, throwing more balls to the back field and tight ends, I think the numbers will go down. Lets hope at least
     
  13. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I don't get why everything has to be so all-or-nothing. It's the equivalent of having a corner that isn't physical enough, is getting plowed over and having his tackles broken all the time, and so you tell him to be more physical, and so he starts getting personal foul penalties left and right for unnecessary roughness and facemasks, horse collars, etc. Then you start yelling at him for it and someone says well the only alternative is for him to start getting plowed over and having his tackles broken again.

    Why no middle ground? It shouldn't be like pulling teeth to ask that the offense play within normal rather than obscene parameters.
     
  14. Xiidaen

    Xiidaen Premium Member Luxury Box

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    The detail here is a nice addition to a great post/discussion.

    In both of these games Miami was playing from behind, but was (mostly) IN the game - someone needed to make plays. Then you need to factor in the criticism that Chad received in the past for not being aggressive or showing passion...This to me creates a situation where a player will try to hold on just a beat longer for something to happen down field while trying to make something happen. The result is more hits.

    Hopefully the team increases level of play overall, we have the luxury of a lead, a strong running game, and the offense picks its spots. Not only will the team do better, but we'll have a QB more likely to live through the experience.
     
  15. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Well, when I see Cutler being tee'd off upon, week after week, and see the Bears in the NFC title game, among other playoff teams whose Qb's were contacted a lot, I draw the conclusion that OC's are willing to trade their Qb being hit for the potential of some plays.

    Martz's philosophy has sort of won the day.
     
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  16. Disnardo

    Disnardo Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Whether through coaching, technique or talent, you are saying that its starts at the OL. It all comes full circle...
     
  17. Disnardo

    Disnardo Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Wasn't there an article about Cutler being teed off by the OL a few days ago???

    I guess it would a trade off if it works and the team comes out with a win while the QB comes out black and blue, at worst...
     
  18. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Yessir and the same sort of thing happened last yr, the result was Matt Forte touching the ball more to slow down the pass rush.
     
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  19. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying what I said in the original post. It's a community issue. It's the offensive line, it's the coaching, it's the play calls and scheme. it's Chad Henne, it's everyone.

    It's not ONE thing.

    Chad Henne has definitely switched his playing style to closer to what it was at Michigan. But it's important to realize that at Michigan even though he had Jake Long protecting his blind side, Henne took too many hits and got hurt because of it. That was one of his criticisms coming out, like a Patrick Ramsey, he just takes too many hits back there trying to be tough and deliver the ball under duress. If you use your feet a little better, play a little smarter not a littler harder, you can get the job done passing AND not take those hits. When he got to the pros they whipped out the 3 second buzzer and Dan Henning designed a safe, incubator type offense with lots of protection options for Henne and the offensive line to option into on any given play, with some movement plays and other things all with the aim of not getting the quarterback hit or pressured.

    So now he's playing a little fast, loose and tough again...like at Michigan...and like at Michigan, I expect he's going to get hurt, unless the Dolphins AS A COMMUNITY are able to get control of this. It's not just Chad Henne. It's not just the offensive line. It's not just Brian Daboll. It's everyone.
     
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  20. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    And what is remarkable about all the attention being paid to the pressure and hits Cutler has taken is...Chad Henne has almost taken twice as many shots from defensive players. No joke. Cutler's taken 18 and Henne's taken 31.
     
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  21. brandon27

    brandon27 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I dont get the reference to his taking alot of hits and getting injured alot at Michigan. The guy only missed 3 games due to injury in his 4 years as a starter at Michigan. Aside from that, I don't recall him being taken out of many games either in his time there due to injury.

    I don't recall him getting hit alot at Michigan either. Im sure he took his shots, but I doubt the numbers were anything like this. Do you by chance have those? Just for reference sake... I cant seem to get my mind to rewind back that far for his years at Michigan even though I watched them all.

    It's a big concern though, no doubt. We've got to do a better job protecting him, and he's got to do a better job protecting yourself as you said. I'm really hoping that he can improve his mobility in the pocket. He's showing better awareness this year, and the offense is sure more suited to his strengths this year and his play resembles more of his college days than his last few NFL seasons. I'm hoping that due to the lockout, he's just adjusting to the new offense, and once he gets more comfortable in this offense, he's going to be able to get more comfortable in the pocket as well, and be able to avoid some of those hits by shuffling his feet a bit and stepping up etc. Of course, that assumes that the OL has to get better, fast. The OL and Henne definitely share the blame here. Can't argue that. At this point though, I'd put it more on the OL. Maybe 60/40 than anything.
     
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  22. DevilFin13

    DevilFin13 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    How much of this is Henne not stepping up enough in the pocket? Is it just me, or does he get to the end of his drop back and just stay there, or only move up a tiny bit? If I'm seeing that right could this be why he is taking so many hits?
     
  23. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    What you describe is exactly what happened on the play he had intercepted against the Texans, and it's why I keep insisting to people that keep trying to scratch that one off the stat sheet that it was definitely his fault. He was in the shadow of his own end zone. When you're in the shadow of your own end zone you make especially sure to work the pocket and get the ball out, neither of which he did on that play.

    Just one play. But it wouldn't be an issue if people wouldn't keep trying to justify scratching it off the stat sheet.
     
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  24. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    He's certainly improved his mobility from last year in terms of getting out of the pocket and making plays or running with the ball. But he still isn't very good at moving and staying in the pocket.
     
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  25. steveincolorado

    steveincolorado Spook, Storme & Pebbles

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    How do you step into a throw when the DL is in your face? This is clearly on the OL.
     
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  26. alen1

    alen1 New Member

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    I'm with you here. I don't know if they are not teaching it or he is simply not doing it, but he should be taking hitch steps.
     
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  27. Lloyd Heilbrunn

    Lloyd Heilbrunn Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    It would be less of a community problem if Colombo moved out of the community...
     
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  28. Jaj

    Jaj Registered

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    Where are the hits primarily coming from?
     
  29. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    80% seem to be coming from our opponent's defense......
     
  30. Killer Bees

    Killer Bees Bringin' the Ruckus

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    Does the OP get paid to do this? jeez
     
  31. Frayser

    Frayser Barstool Philosopher

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    I said in one of the game chats that the only guy that seems to be getting hit more than Henne these days is Cutler. That's not a good thing. The play of our tackles has not been that great. Jake seemed to struggle at the start of the last game but then played better down the stretch. Colombo is a revolving door and should cost somebody their job. But I also think we could do more as far as moving the pocket around every now and then.
     
  32. Zod

    Zod Ruler of the Universe

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    It is the inefficiency of the offense that is responsible for the hits.

    When you take a three step drop, the play design is less than five yards.

    When you take a five step drop, the play design is 10 plus yards.

    When you take a seven step drop, the play design is 15 plus yards.

    Its simple math. The fans want a dynamic offense. The owner wants a dynamic offense. And when you are chasing points because the other team has Tom Brady - EVERYONE wants a dynamic offense. When you start seeking chunk yardage for whatever reason, the hits are bound to increase.

    A major factor to the number of hits going down in game two was Daniel Thomas 107 yards. With his availability, single back sets become less of a fraud to run the football. Let's face it - Reggie Bush scares nobody between the tackles. So in everything the offense could do in game one you had D linemen geeked up to hit the quarterback.

    You bring in a between the tackles RB and Marc Colombo doesn't look quite as bad. If Clay has the versatility as advertised you get a TE that must be hit before he leaves the line of scrimmage BEFORE the DL can rush from outside Colombo. Yes, what I am saying here is that if other parts of this offense were available and can contribute "as advertised" Marc Colombo would not even look so bad.

    This game is the ultimate team sport. Everything about it is connected. You want hits on the QB reduced? Get people on the field that can contribute. Otherwise, bring Dan Henning with his two and three route patterns back. Cause hits on the QB were the last thing you had to worry about with that guy.
     
  33. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Cutler is actually getting hit less, though I suppose some might argue that the hits he's taken have been harder
     
  34. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    The one disagreement I have is on your reasoning for why Henne took fewer hits versus the Texans. He primarily took fewer hits (11 vs 16) because his number was called only 36 times as opposed to 60 times against NE.
     
  35. vt_dolfan

    vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    It cant all be the OL...especially Colombo though can it?

    Defenses have to be scared of the QB, and that he will make them pay for not being in the correct position. I use the Pats as a benchmark, because that damn QB has time to brush his teeth back there. But how much is that the OL, and how much of that is Brady?
     
  36. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    No, it's not all on the OL. Daboll and Henne also involved.
     
  37. steveincolorado

    steveincolorado Spook, Storme & Pebbles

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    I thought the 80% were from couch GM's?
     
  38. steveincolorado

    steveincolorado Spook, Storme & Pebbles

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    Most of it IS the OL, don't care what anybody else thinks!
     
  39. Zod

    Zod Ruler of the Universe

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    I wasn't actually saying anything to disagree with. You were saying "It's not one thing" and the line of thought I had was taking off from that. But my first thought when I read the comment above was -

    "It's all relative. Henne's number was called less due to the number of times Thomas was called upon and gained 4+ yards."

    Check out the play by play and look at the choices made.

    http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/20110...enu=drivechart&tab=analyze&analyze=playbyplay

    Second series 3rd and 15 - draw to Thomas
    Fourth series was all Daniel Thomas
    Fifth series was all Daniel Thomas
    Sixth series was over 50% plays to Daniel Thomas
    Seventh series was over 50% plays to Daniel Thomas

    Stupid penalties and the futility of the passing game killed drives. Now we are chasing points in the next set of series because we are running out of time. It's right back to Game one, Henne is back to getting hit, and the O-line is right back to suck.
     
  40. Ricky'sBong

    Ricky'sBong Reborn

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    relax guys. the O Line is Tony's forte.
     

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