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Is the debate over Henne finished?

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Bumrush, Sep 25, 2011.

  1. Zod

    Zod Ruler of the Universe

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    No, Henne supporters just move the shell around during every shell game.


    What this hater has said and will say continually is that this guy is Jay Fiedler. Jay Fiedler got the best running game in the league, a top ten defense, and still didn't make the playoffs. Does that explain the lack of play making ability?

    Geez! Just recognize Jay Fiedler before you give him a fifth year - cause the fifth year hurts worse than the fourth. Every year is just another nail in the Dolphins coffin. What is so hard to understand about that?
     
  2. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    but are you accounting at all for mistakes that other QB's in this league make relative to him, and putting it into some sort of context..What I mean is, Henne made a poor decision to throw to gates, and 1 int..Brady had 4 int's...I've watched Rothlesberger have 3 turnovers that were his fault...I mean in the context of a full game, is Henne making any more mistakes than any other QB, or is he playing his position well enough to be a part of a good football team...When I watched this game today, I saw mistakes all over the place and #7 had nothing to do with them..Now if your saying that he doesn't have the intangibles to make other players play at a higher level and thats what his major problem is, then I can understand that POV....

    To me though, with the way he has responded to criticism and adversity, I would support his toughness over anyone else I'am seeing on this team..basically I don't see players playing up to his level, but maybe this team has already given up so its hard to judge.
     
  3. HardKoreXXX

    HardKoreXXX Insensitive to the Touch

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    Chad Henne doesn't have either of those things. I'm sure he'd settle for the skeletons of the O-Lineman Fiedler had at this point.

    Again, I think we're killing the guy because he's not good enough to compensate for all the glaring holes this team has. Tough gig, this NFL QB business.
     
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  4. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Threw an interception on his own motivational speech.
     
  5. Bumrush

    Bumrush Stable Genius Club Member

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    They don't stop quitting unless they have to protect the QB..
     
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  6. Zod

    Zod Ruler of the Universe

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    Yes we are killing him for being Jay Fiedler. Jay Fiedler was killed for being Jay Fiedler and his O-line was no peach. Remember the hunt for Olin Kreutz? And there was a reason why Vernon Carey was drafted late in the regime. wade Smith ring a bell? Todd Wade was the only constant on that line and they felt so good about him that they let him go for peanuts.
     
  7. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Why? Because people keep comparing Henne to these guys and how much "better" it'd be if we had a top 1st round QB...... and because people blindly seem to think these young QBs were responsible for their 2010 team's success and are at the level where they win games on their own regardless of how poorly their TEAM plays. That's why I mention these guys.

    I've been saying for at least a year that these other young QBs were winning games because their respective TEAMS were playing well. Now how are they looking when things aren't so picturesque? They don't look any better than Henne, or should I say----- Henne looks as good or better than they do. They're showing they can't carry their team, just as Henne can't be asked to play at a Manning-Brady type level and bail out his team on a weekly basis.
     
  8. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    How do so many people not get this? We're playing sloppy. SLOPPY SLOPPY SLOPPY. I don't care who the QB is, you don't win games this way!!..... and blaming a young QB for not having the weekly ability to overcome this SLOPPY TEAM PLAY is asinine IMO.


    We lost today b/c we were SLOPPY, not b/c Cleveland's QB beat our QB. Get it straight people. McCoy would've never been in position to win if we didn't miss a FG, fumble inside the redzone, or have the refs miss an obvious offensive pass interference call that would've killed the game winning drive IIRC.
     
  9. Jaj

    Jaj Registered

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    It is finished. Until we get a shot at a true franchise QB like Luck or Barkley he's Miami's guy.
     
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  10. BicketyBam

    BicketyBam No Fist Pumps Allowed

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    And yet with all that, you got the ball needing 15 yards for a shot to win. I agree with many of your points, but you do not need to be an elite QB to succeed in that final situation.
     
  11. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    :huh:

    like any team is winning games or competing for a championship when their respective team plays sloppy arse football. To blame our QB for how SLOPPY and INCONSISTENT we're playing as a whole is a slap in the face to every team who's ever won a Championship based on great team play and solid fundamental football.


    CK, you're a smart guy; IMO you should be using those brains to show people why we're not playing well as a TEAM rather than attempting to scapegoat our QB (who is playing at a better level than our team) for our 0-3 start.
     
  12. rdhstlr23

    rdhstlr23 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Everyone knows it. Everyone says it. QB's earn their checks on 3rd down conversions, redzone opportunities and the 4th quarter (specifically the 2 minute drill).

    Chad Henne has struggled with those--mainly redzone & 4th quarter. Chad Henne is a 3 year start and he's been in this league for 4 years. He's asked for more responsibility. He's changed coordinators. He's in an offense that is "better suited to his skills", from his own words. He's been given weapons through FA, trade, draft, etc.

    At some point Henne has to be able to win a football game. Today is a great example, McCoy didn't play well. That offense didn't play well. Yet, they were given an oportunity to win the game and they capitalized. Chad Henne was given an opportunity and he failed. Is the team at fault? Yes. Is he the only culprit? Of course not.

    However, you see guys continue to do it in the 4th quarters--Josh Freeman, Matt Ryan (both guys lead in 4th quarter comebacks here lately), etc. and that's where the proof is. The debate over Henne is absolutely not finished. He's wonderful between the 20 yard lines, but that's his MO. He's wonderful in the first 3 quarters, but that's his MO.

    Henne had a chance to make a statement today. He failed again, IMO.
     
  13. Anonymous

    Anonymous Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Those Quaterbacks you used as examples all showed the ability to play better than average football for a whole season, besides Kolb who I agreed is a journey man.

    Bottom line is, he's gone after this season. Its inevitable. We'll be picking in the top 5 barring any miracles, and we'll be picking a Quaterback.
     
  14. Bumrush

    Bumrush Stable Genius Club Member

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    Much of the same mentality was used when Jay Fielder was leading this team to an 11-5 record and started out 5-2 the next year.. He wasn't elite or pretty, so why not give Ray Lucas a chance.. People were overjoyed when Fielder went down.. How has our QB situation been since then ?

    For once we actually have a legitimate QB with an NFL arm, and suddenly the main sticking point is that he isn't Tom Brady? News flash CK, Dan Marino led this team to ZERO championships and ONE AFC Championship. Peyton Manning has won ONE Super Bowl, during a playoff run that saw his defense make big plays to bail him out.

    Nobody is claiming that Henne is an elite QB, but he certainly isn't as bad as you make him out to be.. One one hand CK posts about the record setting amount of hits Henne has taken, then a second later blames him for not winning very many games? This team is crap, this coaching staff is crap, this D is crap when push comes to shove, and all that crap is reflected back on to the QB who can't seem to catch a break even when he starts out on fire.. Another fumble inside the 20, another missed FG and a defensive collapse. When does the blame shift the rest of the team and the organization? That doesn't negate the fact that Henne could have done better on that last drive.. But we are judging him on one bad pass.. What about the late hit? The missed assignements? The continual attempt to run Reggie Bush up the gut when Donald Thomas is blowing through the line? The missed FG? The drops? Do those things factor in?
     
  15. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    you don't need an elite QB..... but you do need an offense that at least doesn't tie 1 hand behind your back.

    After Carey went down, in the 2nd half, prior to the last drive, Henne had 13 drop backs.

    7 of those 13 pass calls resulted in 4 sacks, 2 forced scrambles, and 1 holding. Most all of this was interior Dline pressure.

    How do you expect a QB to gain 15 yards against a defense that's expecting the pass and has been beating him up all half? The coverage was tight. His second pass was on the money to Gates who unfortunately gave Henne zero room to use the sideline. QBs need 15 yards all the time. That doesn't mean they get it. Again, he shouldn't have been in that position to begin with if the TEAM played a solid game for once. We shouldn't be in the position where our QB plays a great game but is stuck in the position to have to win it for us regardless.

    If Sanchez has a solid game like this (prior to Miami's last drive), the Jets would've been awaiting Cleveland's onside kick rather than forcing Mark to come from behind and win it.
     
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  16. rdhstlr23

    rdhstlr23 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    That's one of my sticking points on Chad Henne. People love him because he has a great arm. Fans continue to hang onto that. Who in the NFL doesn't have an NFL arm? You know that Ryan Fitzpatrick guy? The one who supposedly doesn't have an NFL arm, give me him all day on Sunday.

    At some point as an NFL QB you've got to win a football game for you team. Today was a perfect opportunity and he didn't do that. I mean Freeman does it, even when he's stunk the whole game. Fitzpatrick did it again today. Colt McCoy did it today against all odds while playing crappy. Hell, Jason Campbell has done it with the Raiders.

    You know what the difference from 2008 is from every other season we've had since then? It's simple. Our QB was able to score more efficiently in the redzone, and he was able to win games for us in the 4th quarter. We also had a closer on the defensive side in Joey Porter. We have none of those. Most of the closers in the NFL are QB's, but some aren't. Again, Chad had a wonderful opportunity today, in a game he was playing well in, yet couldn't get the job done.
     
  17. steveincolorado

    steveincolorado Spook, Storme & Pebbles

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    Casey Painter must be a great QB, he just handed off the ball and the Colts scored a TD to tie up the Steelers. To tie up a game against the defending AFC Champs, you have to have a elite QB.
     
  18. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    CK pointed out that Henne was 4 for 10 in the second half, a part of that was the Browns were successfully blitzing him.

    This is one of the reasons why I hope we see some OL changes, as in "I had no choice but to play Garner at RG and Cook at RT" types of changes as the Carey/Colombo side of the ledger is just not good.
     
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  19. Jaj

    Jaj Registered

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    This is stupid though. We knew it wouldn't work and we still did it.
     
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  20. rdhstlr23

    rdhstlr23 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    That's the thing though. It's like that in almost every NFL game. In tonight's battle, even friggin Curtis Painter lead the Colts 80 yards for a game tying TD. Now Ben Roethlisberger, in a game that he's caused the Steelers to be in now has to lead them to a win. I bet the guy does it. He's been harassed all game long, is playing with the last 5 OLineman they have, but is it an excuse for them? No. No matter whether he or the team has played sloppy in the NFL what separates good QB's from bad QB's are these situations.
     
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  21. rdhstlr23

    rdhstlr23 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    You mean Curtis Painter? He made a couple of nice throws there.
     
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  22. Bumrush

    Bumrush Stable Genius Club Member

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    Can't argue with this.. In that blown ref call against the Steelers last year it was the same situaition with Henne...

    Since I've never played any level of football, what seems to be the root cause of this? How can a player go from looking all world to melting? It can't be attributed 100% to nerves, can it? I mean you are already playing in front of massive 70K+ crowds (and Henne is from Michigan) and millions of people on TV, do you really wilt in the last two minutes? Or is it our coaching / practice sessions involving our 2 minute drill offense? WTF is it????
     
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  23. steveincolorado

    steveincolorado Spook, Storme & Pebbles

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    Yea, him.......lol
     
  24. Section126

    Section126 We are better than you. Luxury Box

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    No need to set fire to the corpse. Let's have a little respect for the dead.

    All I am saying is..lump every negative thing everybody has said about this regime and every debate point on the merits of the Sparano crew..and it's correct. They recognize it, and more importantly, Ross recognizes it and IRELAND is on board with it, which is either a good or very bad thing.

    Trust me..they know what is going on. Sparano is a just a terrible coach. His conservative nature costs games.
     
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  25. Bumrush

    Bumrush Stable Genius Club Member

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    Too bad for Sparano.. I like the guy... He obviously sucks as a coach.. But too bad for him.... He reminds me a lot of Wanny... Two peas in the same pod.. A true shame because both of those guys were loyal to this franchise and truly cared about their players... Unlike our old pals JJ, Parcells and Saban.
     
  26. rdhstlr23

    rdhstlr23 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Big Ben finds a way.
     
  27. rdhstlr23

    rdhstlr23 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    But, it wasn't him being conservative that cost him today. That may be the case for 2009 & 2010, but not this year. I think he needs to go, because the slate just needs to be wiped clean. In my opinion, only Jake Long has a guaranteed spot on this team.
     
  28. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    It doesn't shift... b/c this apparently isn't a team game, and apparently the 59 minutes and 17 seconds preceding the final drive simply do NOT matter. All that apparently matters is the last 47 seconds of the game and that we didn't have Brady to make up for the sloppy play leading up to that point.


    I didn't see Cleveland needing Tom Brady to beat us. That's the fatal flaw to irrational fan arguments. The Browns didn't need elite play from McCoy. In fact, he played inferior to Henne yet Cleveland still got the win. Miami played sloppier than Cleveland; that's why we lost.

    If we can't beat Cleveland despite looking like the better team with better QB play, then we don't deserve to win games. IMO it's simply not fair to say "to heck with the rest of the team's sloppy play; if we had Brady, it wouldn't matter how sloppy we are!". That kind of mentality is not fair to the guys who played well today, and it's not fair to a QB who was 19/25, 255 yards, 1 TD, and 0 INTs prior to yet another defensive melt down (although there's an asterisk for the missed PI call).
     
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  29. Section126

    Section126 We are better than you. Luxury Box

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    The players have had it with Tony and Henne is either good or mediocre.

    If he is mediocre..we are 7-9 at best every year and we need to get rid of him. If he is good, we are one of the many that have a ceiling of 10 wins and we need a ton to go right to make the playoffs.

    You guys have no idea how bad a coach Tony Sparano is. He is Wanny re-incarnated.
     
  30. Section126

    Section126 We are better than you. Luxury Box

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    Trust me..his conservative nature cost them this game today as well.

    There were players lobbying up and down the sideline today for opportunities to make BIG plays all day. Sparano didn't care. Scared to death. Worst part is that Henne is Tony's puppet.
     
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  31. NaboCane

    NaboCane Banned

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    Hmmm...who's been saying that for a couple years now?

    Who could it be?
     
  32. NaboCane

    NaboCane Banned

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    If that's true (and I have zero reason to doubt that it is) then coach meathead has lost the players now, instead of later like I thought, and we may see him fired tomorrow.
     
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  33. rdhstlr23

    rdhstlr23 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Chad Henne isn't the reason Miami lost. However, he is a reason why Miami didn't win. And there is a very big difference there.

    You're hitching your wagon to the Brady train, but you're right, we don't need Brady to win. At some point your QB, your captain, the most important player on your team, MUST win some games for you. Even in games, where you stink, even in games where your defense gives it up, etc. That's the biggest difference between 2008 and since. We don't have Chad Pennington closing the games in the 4th quarter.

    When it came down to it, Colt McCoy lead his team down and made a wonderful throw to win the game. Where was Henne when he had a much less daunting task facing him right afterwards? Was the team sloppy? Yes. Should this score have been different after the 1st half? Yes. But, no matter the case, the game was there to be won in the 4th quarter and it wasn't. Playoff teams and good QB's are doing that.
     
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  34. Zod

    Zod Ruler of the Universe

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    ....And that's the difference.
     
  35. NaboCane

    NaboCane Banned

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    And my gut feeling was right: he is throttling Daboll, not letting him run the formations he ran in preseason.
     
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  36. Anonymous

    Anonymous Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    More players than long deserve guaranteed spots on this team.
     
  37. Section126

    Section126 We are better than you. Luxury Box

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    Meathead is a perfect adjective for "coach Sparano".
     
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  38. Matt5202

    Matt5202 New Member

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    Hes never going to get that chance. He will not get better coaching here. We'll have a new staff; and no new staff is going to hitch their wagon to Chad Henne. That would be insanity. He's got 13 more games as our QB then hes done in Miami, for better or worse.
     
  39. rdhstlr23

    rdhstlr23 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I disagree. And during the middle of the game, how do you lobby a head coach, who doesn't call the plays, to put you in and make a play? If a player on offense wants to make a play shouldn't they go to Daboll? Conversely, the same is true for defense and Nolan. He went for it on 4th down. They played for a TD at 13-10, but we were unable to cash it in.

    I mean you're damned if you do, damned if you don't if you're Tony Sparano. I don't think conservatism is his issue this year. It comes flat down to winning & losing and he's losing.
     
  40. rdhstlr23

    rdhstlr23 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I disagree. I don't see many other players who aren't expendable. Does that mean I want to get rid of everyone and players who have served their roles well? Of course not. However, we love a guy like Davone Bess, but the truth is, you can find that player on the street and fit him into a scheme.

    Paul Soliai as wonderful as he's been, isn't in the same class as Wilfork or Ngata. He doesn't have an all around game like those guys do, so he wont get paid like them.
     

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