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Is the debate over Henne finished?

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Bumrush, Sep 25, 2011.

  1. Anonymous

    Anonymous Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    He's in his second season. Jesus christ, your complaining about Henne "only" being in his 4th season, yet your using someone who's in their second season as an example.

    Here's an idea. Let's compare him to Ryan, Freeman, Sanchez, Stafford and Flacco. They all have 3 or more seasons under their belt. Henne is the worst one in that group. Maybe he's better than Sanchez, but that's not saying much.
     
  2. Zod

    Zod Ruler of the Universe

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    No, she never could shoot....even though she had every tool provided to do so. I know its difficult for you to understand but the gun can be there filled with best ammunition that can be machined. The target can be there with the best marking available. The training can be there from highly qualified indiduals. Someone has to pull the trigger and just because a piece of paper says they are qualified - they still miss the mark. She can continue to practice. I'm just glad I live 25 miles away and the indoor range is 2 miles from her house.
     
  3. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    And not to mention Bradford is throwing to Brandon Gibson, Mike Sims-Walker, Greg Salas and Billy Bajema as opposed to Henne's throwing to Brandon Marshall, Davone Bess, Brian Hartline and Anthony Fasano.

    It doesn't matter. What will happen is what was always destined to happen.
     
  4. Anonymous

    Anonymous Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Hartline doesn't run a 4.35 and doesn't have a 45 inch vertical. He's not a threat.
     
  5. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Matt Ryan's last drive: down by 6. has 6 pass attempts inside Tampa's 19 yard line to win it: 5 INCOMPLETE. Thx for playin, Matt.

    Schaub's last drive: down by 7. throws 3 straight incompletions with 2:42 left to turn the ball over on downs to NO. Game over.

    Orton's last drive: down by 3. Throws an INT at Tenn's 39 with 1:46 left. buh bye.

    Cassel's last drive: down by 3. Throws an INT at SD's 43 with 1:43 left.

    Kolb: down by 3. Throws and INT on Seattle's 36 with 1:15 left.


    Moral of the story: Our TEAM needs to play SIXTY MINUTES OF FOOTBALL so that sloppiness doesn't force us to attempt last second come from behind wins against teams we should be instead taking last second kneels against.
     
  6. Anonymous

    Anonymous Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Why did you mention Orton, Kolb and Cassel?
     
  7. Trowa

    Trowa A world of pain

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    Let me preface this by saying I'm not a Henne hater, so please don't level that accusation at me. I'm a 21 year Miami Dolphins fan who wants nothing but the best for this team and it's long term success.

    Everyone seems to have their own excuse for why Chad Henne doesn't get the job done. Sure, maybe he was shackled by Henning's offense. Sure, maybe the constant micro-management of this coaching staff has destroyed his confidence. Sure, maybe Chad Henne's game suffered because this regime tried to turn him into Chad Pennington. All of these reasons and more are quite possibly true. But just because you can point to a reason why Chad Henne has not developed into a good QB doesn't diminish the fact that it's a problem. Just because QB isn't our biggest weakness doesn't mean it's not a position that is in dire need of addressing.

    Look, I get that Chad Henne is never going to be Tom Brady or Aaron Rodgers and it's unfair of us as fans to expect that of him. But don't you understand that you need a QB like Rodgers or Brady to win in the NFL? And I'm not talking about winning 10 games and getting knocked out in the first round of the playoffs, I'm talking about winning the Super Bowl. People love to point to Eli Manning as the shining example of why Chad Henne can win us a Super Bowl. And even if you ignore the fact that Strahan, Tuck and Umeyora were much more integral in that team's Super Bowl victory than Eli, Manning went on a tear during the playoffs that would make Peyton envious. And to be perfectly honest I don't believe Chad Henne is capable of sustaining that high level of play for an extended period of time. This is a QB driven league where the rules are established to benefit the passing game, and it's no shock that the Mannings, Brady, Roethlisberger, Brees and Rodgers are the only QBs to win a Super Bowl in the past 8 years. You have to have an elite talent at QB. Chad Henne is not an elite talent, so no matter what statistics you can dredge up to support why he's good (and god knows I've seen some strange ones around here) we need an upgrade at the position.

    Today's game against the Browns is a perfect microcosm of Chad Henne's career. He played just well enough in the first half to constitute this thread being created. He gives you the false hope that maybe he's turned the corner, maybe he's poised to become a legitimate QB in this league and then, with the game on the line he pisses it away. Excuses have been made ad naeusum for why this loss isn't Chad Henne's fault, and I admit some of them do hold merit. Our defense had the opportunity to win the game by stopping the Browns on their drive and they failed. I'm not excusing that. But after a 15 yard excessive celebration and 15 yard personal foul penalty we were set up for the win. The Dolphins had 1:09 on the clock, 1 time out and needed 10 yards. One damn first down. You can make all the excuses for Henne you want, but the fact of the matter is the task he was faced with was not overwhelming. It's not like he was asked to drive it 80 yards for a TD with 50 seconds to go and no timeouts. He was asked to get 10 yards. The greats get those yards.

    Don't pretend that Henne hasn't had his chances to prove himself. Three times in three games this year he has been put in situations where he could prove himself as a leader, as a winner, and has pissed those opportunities away each time. How many more times does he have to prove to us that he's not a winner before people stop making excuses for him? I mean, it gets ridiculous around here what people will say to leap to the defense of Henne. Eventually all the excuses don't mean **** and he has to sink or swim on his own merit. To this point in his career, he has sunk. And when you get down to it, that's all that matters, whether you can get it done on the field in the clutch situations. And well...Henne's track record speaks for itself in those situations.
     
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  8. Zod

    Zod Ruler of the Universe

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    Because that's what is favorable this week. First thing that pops to mind is what did they do last week because Chad Henne has had back to back winning drive suckage...

    Whatever happened to the Drew Brees maturation yardstick? That bar must be too high. We are down to comparing him to this milleniums version of Scott Mitchell.
     
  9. Jaj

    Jaj Registered

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    Few disagree with that Trowa. Let me ask you another scenario though if Nolan is HC and Daboll is OC next year. Landry Jones comes along, I think he's a Dolphin. It's about opportunity. The Dolphins wagered that Henne was better than paying for Orton, Palmer, or McNabb. They were right. Remember they were willing to draft Ponder and Locker over Henne. This regime does get it. It wants to improve at QB and it will try to if it gets the shot at it. It's Chad Henne for now, much like David Woodley (let's hope it doesn't end like it did for Woodley).
     
  10. Jaj

    Jaj Registered

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    Wait a minute though. Let's go back to the Michigan tapes and see if it's the same thing. Is the 2 minute drill something that can be improved? Where is the problem with the 2 minute drill coming from? Is it from the relay upstairs. Is it from the substitutions on the sideline. Is at KB likes to call it an absolute lack of practice for situational football. Cam Cameron was actually somewhat good at this aspect of relaying in plays. It didn't matter which QB, whether it was Green or Lemon.

    What Miami needs to focus on for the rest of the year is getting a clear evaluation of the entire roster much as Parcells did at the end of 2007.
     
  11. Trowa

    Trowa A world of pain

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    While I'm sure they WANT to improve at QB the fact of the matter is they haven't done anything to ACTUALLY improve at QB. There are 32 teams in the league and every one of them is looking to secure that QB position every year, no matter who they have starting. You can't just sit back and expect someone to fall into your lap. But that is a subject for a different thread.
     
  12. Jaj

    Jaj Registered

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    Ehhhh... Not sure on that one. Trade up to get Ponder and Locker? Or Gabbert for that matter? I think they did the right thing. Cowher for all his admiration and love had Big Ben for two years and it wasn't even immediately after he gained more control of personnel decisions. It was after that. Ben literally fell into his lap. Eli was a boatload to get and it worked out but not just because of Eli (who isn't a much better QB than Henne).

    I'll tell you what, I'm fairly sure if Landry Jones is in range Miami would draft him this year.
     
  13. Zod

    Zod Ruler of the Universe

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    I think (much to some members dismay) Ireland is going to pick the next coach and the next QB. There have been numerous signals that moves have been made (and not made) that were not in Sparano's best interest.
     
  14. Jaj

    Jaj Registered

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    Expand on that Zod...

    How so?
     
  15. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    it's more about total reps than seasons played. Bradford has as many or more redzone reps and crunch time opportunities through 19 games than Henne has in 4 years.


    Ryan is playing equal to Henne this year. That's a fact.
    Freeman is playing worse than Henne this year. That's also a fact.
    Cutler is playing no better than Henne. That too is a fact.
    Sanchez looks decent this year, but I don't think anyone is necessarily putting him ahead of Henne at this point.
    Flacco has looked great in 2 games with a crap game sandwiched in between.

    Stafford is the ONLY ONE who's playing like a true FRANCHISE QB.


    Henne: 82.4 QBR, 4 TD, 3 INT, 7.8 avg. 11 sacks. (has the 2nd most 20+ yarders in the NFL)
    Cutler: 82.4 QBR, 5 TD, 3 INT, 7.5 avg. 14 sacks.
    Rivers: 82.1 QBR, 4 TD, 6 INT, 7.6 avg, 6 sacks.
    Ryan: 81.5 QBR, 5 TD, 4 INT, 6.4 avg, 13 sacks.
    Orton: 79.1 QBR, 5 TD, 3 INT, 6.3 avg, 8 sacks.
    McCoy: 78.4 QBR, 5 TD, 2 INT, 5.7 avg, 3 sacks.
    Freeman: 76.1 QBR, 2 TD, 4 INT, 6.4 avg, 4 sacks.
    Bradford: 73.3 QBR, 2 TD, 1 INT, 6.1 avg, 11 sacks.
    Cassel: 65.5 QBR, 3 TD, 5 INT, 5.2 avg, 5 sacks.



    By the way, Cleveland's defense has allowed an 81 QBR despite Henne posting a 90.
    Anyone have a problem with us allowing a 104 QBR to opposing teams?
     
  16. Trowa

    Trowa A world of pain

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    Comparing a 3 game sample size in which Chad Henne had the best game of his career doesn't change the fact that Henne is not a quarterback who can win you the Super Bowl, much less get you 10 yards to win the game with 4 tries. And that in and of itself means we need an upgrade at the position.
     
  17. Zod

    Zod Ruler of the Universe

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    1. Crowder has a detest for Ireland and loves Sparano. Would it not be Sparano's final 53?

    2. Latest revelation that Ross is very pleased we are 8 million under cap - even before season. Which explains Henne/Moore over Orton and Colombo over Mckinnie.

    3. Ireland relationship with fanvision GM.

    I think Ireland has kissed the godfathers ring and is a made member. Tony is the cappo that's going to get whacked for not being a good earner.


    Read Armando's article this morning. Takes too much effort to link it from blackberry.
     
  18. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    because they, too, failed to win during their last drive despite trailing by 1 score. ......and also b/c Miami fans wanted Orton, Zona gave up a 1st rounder & DHB for Kolb, and Cassel is supposed to be KC's future. Just saying---- coming from behind is easier said than done, and it shouldn't have to happen when you're better than your opponent and outplay your opponent. Cleveland didn't beat themselves the way Miami beat ourselves.

    It almost seems like the mindset of Dolphin fans has become--> all games are won in the final seconds. How about for once we don't play sloppy football or collapse on defense late in a game?


    Anyone else care to see Henne take 3 knees in a row to end a game for once?


    I sure as **** do..... especially when Chad has a good game that he should be celebrating, not scapegoated for..... and it would've happened if we could kick a FG, hold onto the ball in the redzone, catch a decently thrown pass in the endzone, pass protect just a little bit in the 2nd half, or not have a late game defensive melt down against a crappy offense. Any one of those and we're taking a knee rather than praying for a last second win.
     
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  19. Trowa

    Trowa A world of pain

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    To your second point, Orton wanted something in the neighborhood of 9 mil a year from most rumors. You call me a cheap bastard all day long, I'm not shelling out 9 mil a year for a guy who's clearly only a minimal upgrade (if that) over what I already have. As for McKinnie, I know he's starting for the Ravens but I haven't seen his play this year so I can't speak to that, but I do know that his play trailed off severely last year and that the guy is pushing 400 pounds. I'm not sure he would have been a smart investment.
     
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  20. Jaj

    Jaj Registered

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    It's not complicated at all. Carey had his contract cut to a guaranteed 2.5m, they saw Colombo out there cheap and they signed him. Waters would have cost probably 2-3m and there was no way to recoup Carey's cash. For that 2-3m they kept that combo on the right side. Berger was cut in favor of Cook who was slightly cheaper. Then they brought in competition to force Culver to recoup cash.

    This is all money based. Flat out the team is in financial straits. This is why Chad Henne will survive (at least until they have to pay someone to play QB next year) aside from a rookie.
     
  21. Zod

    Zod Ruler of the Universe

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    Its a feeling I am getting from the media - including Crowder. Armando and Omar genuinely like Tony and have said as much. They seem to be badgering the top brass just to save Tony from "dead man walking.". Dave Hyde seems to have had a mission to link Ireland to Tony for the entire season. It just looks like a messy divorce and the people we rely upon are sensing some wrong. Something like "he built an offshore account knowing the lawyers were going to be called."
     
  22. Zod

    Zod Ruler of the Universe

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    No way I think Orton was worth rumor. But hindsight is proving they bought chef boyardee with a purpose in mind. Tony's contract was paid for via lack of free agency.
     
  23. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    I understand your points and frustration. I just disagree with some of it.

    If we do any 1 of the following (no missed Carpenter FG; no Bush fumble on the 19; Marshall doesn't let a TD zip through his hands; no late collapsing defense & ref's missed PI call; or not allowing 7 combined sacks, forced scrambles, & holding calls during 13 of our 2nd half pass attempts) then Henne takes a kneel at the end with a 100+ QBR, 19 of 25, 76%, 255 yards, at least 1 TD, 0 INT.

    Would you laud or criticize that type of performance?

    What might have Chad accomplished in the 2nd half without all those sacks and forced scrambles (after Carey went down)? After all, he averaged 10 yards per pass attempt prior to the last drive.

    Cmon, the guy was harassed all 2nd half and had only 6 pass attempts in the 2nd half before the final drive, yet people are chastising Henne for the passing game having no rhythm or success during the final minute? My opinion: Cleveland destroyed our passing game's rhythm and timing in the 2nd half, and it carried through to the final drive.
     
  24. Jaj

    Jaj Registered

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    I think they destroyed the offensive line. Henne is not a guy that can carry you. That's all there is to it. I'd like to see the OL without Colombo it's that simple.
     
  25. Trowa

    Trowa A world of pain

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    You can point to the missed FG, the fumble, the dropped TD, etc and all of those things are valid reasons why we lost. If there's one thing we all know it's that no one player and no one play wins or loses a game in the NFL. But by the same token, if a guy can't get 10 yards with the game on the line, the season on the line, his head coaches job on the line, and quite possibly his future as a starting QB on the line he's not a good QB. I'm sorry that's just how it is. He had a great first half and wasn't called upon to do much in the second half and I'm not saying he's a bum who can't play. I'm saying he's a guy who can't be trusted to win you games and can't come through in the clutch. Those two facts are irrefutable, his track record speaks for itself.

    The one thing that continually bothers me about this seemingly never-ending Chad Henne argument is this. Those on the anti-Henne side of the argument (for the most part) acknowledge that there are glaring weaknesses on this roster that contribute to our continued losing ways including a defunct coaching staff, poor secondary play and a revolving door at offensive line, and that Chad Henne and the QB position in general happens to be one of those weaknesses. Those on the pro-Henne side of the argument (for the most part) refuse to acknowledge that Chad Henne has any faults continually trying to find someone else to point the blame at while not admitting that Henne is as big of an issue as anything else.
     
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  26. dsteve

    dsteve Banned

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    How can call henne a failure when this team has been bad for years? The worst offensive play caller in the history of the NFL last year, no talent at WR the year before that and now a team with more aggressive play calling but horrible, horrible play selection at key times. The 4th down fade to hartline against NE? are you kidding me? From the 1? Have you heard of running behind jake long?

    You people are *****ing about todays end of the game plays but who's calling those plays? why are you taking that deep shot to a WR who had only seen the field on special teams all day? Where the hell is reggie bush out of the back field, not just at the end of the game but all day?

    I'm not calling henne a pro bowler just yet but the kid has shown flashes despite this team doing everything they can to lose games and down grade the talent level. The year the wildcat went prime time we had a sick offense line and they gutted it. traded people away, namely at center and then we cut the guy we traded for the next year. Incognito has to go. dudes horrible. carey is overrated and yeah, we should have picked up something in free agency this year. If we aren't gonna use bush at all then why couldnt that money have went towards some o line help? Obviously we need help if thomas is running well and only gaining 3.5 a carry on 20 somethings tocuhes. no holes any where today, everything was basically created by thomas after contact.


    here are the problems that need to be fixed before henne is trashed.

    1. horrible play calling. it's nice that we actually throw the ball on first downs now but don't out think yourself. throwing fades at the goalline with our limited talent at WR is ******ed. Throwing the deep ball today we pretty stupid, especially to a rookie WR who didnt play all game.

    2. New LG. cognito sucks. dude basically lost us the NE game with multiple holds after getting beat.

    3. new kicker. this guy is a head case. boot him.

    4. talent at WR. Bess is overratted as hell. Decent hands but the guy is small and doesnt have the speed to match. Hartline a number 2 wr? you must be nuts. Gates might end up being solid but he's a rookie. Basically better than ted ginn at a fraction of the cost.

    5. On defense, we need a saftey. Bell is garbage, clemons is a project at best. Rashed jones maybe...we'll see.

    6. sean smith sucks. period. davis is under performing.

    7. whats going on with the d line? wake is the only player that gets any kind of pressure and he's a 250 lb lber.

    drafting a qb is the worst thing we can do. thats another 3-4 years of ****. theres really nothing wrong with henne. Those citing td numbers obviously don't know much about football or don't watch the games. sure he's not perfect but given his situations the last couple seasons his growth has been stunted.
     
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  27. Jaj

    Jaj Registered

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    There is one issue that hasn't been addressed at all.

    How much better is Henne's passer rating when Daniel Thomas is in the game versus Reggie Bush. That's an underrated stat. Bush carried the ball for 24 yards versus Thomas for 95 yards in today's game. That's a dramatic difference and one that has be to addressed. Clearly no one is afraid of Bush out of the backfield.
     
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  28. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    well at least she has that over Henne. :wink2:

    Hey, during her training, did they repeatedly substitute shooters for her despite their guns having an obvious history of jamming? Just curious.

    Also, were her trainers constantly changing up what kind of shooter they wanted her to be? IE: Did they ask her to be a short-range 9mm during one outing, a rapid-fire machine gun the next, and then maybe a sniper despite the sniper thing being somewhat random and probably not practiced very often?

    Were they critical of her taking the 7 point shot b/c they conservatively preferred the less risky 3 pointer instead?

    Did she get a new shooting coordinator who changed up how the targets would be moving?

    Did her previous shooting coordinator constantly have her shooting from the same position to where everyone could guess where her targets and herself would be located?..... and then did her new shooting coordinator add new shooting positions to the mix to where initially it might create problems hitting targets, but would prove beneficial over the long haul while also preventing others from keying on her intentions?

    Did her targets have objects constantly popping up preventing her from firing a shot off?

    Did her trainers stick her in a shooting style that was designed for someone else?

    Or are you basically saying---- the difference between your sister and Henne is she never had talent to begin with? That would make sense.
     
  29. Jaj

    Jaj Registered

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    On a side note: Perhaps its time Reggie Bush helps Chad Henne out by actually providing Miami with a dangerous PR and KR?
     
  30. Zod

    Zod Ruler of the Universe

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    Here is the crazy thing about Bush. High School coaches practically crap their pants every time they see a) running the wheel behind two WR and although there isn't a LB in the league that can run with him - I have yet to see that pass thrown.
     
  31. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Who cares what Armando & Omar want? Were they given partial ownership or something? Is that Ross's way of paying them off to prevent their fingers from ever touching a keyboard again?

    Their input on this organization should be about as significant as a bib on an anorexic.
     
  32. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    How about the first round QB that Rodgers was playing against (the one whom 2 teams have given up a 1st rounder for)? Do we have that? Pretty much yeah. Can Henne become that? He might be about already there. :shifty:
     
  33. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Eh, disagree with that Zod, imo OmarK has a sandy vagina because Crowder got cut and Carey got robbed, I sort of devalue his views nowadays as I think he has lost objectivity, he can generate as many page hits as he wishes and it won't effect anything, nor should it.

    I rarely bother with Salgueor's stuff as he just that amateurish.
     
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  34. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    I didn't have a problem with giving a crap "as you say". It's only when my response to you gets thumped is when I'll respond to it. Otherwise, we can keep on not giving a crap. lol.
     
  35. Vinny Fins

    Vinny Fins Feisty Brooklyn dolfan ️‍

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    Does drafting Andrew Luck do anything for our god awful Oline? Our Porous Secondary? Our inexplicably suddenly very pedestrian front 7? No?

    But yes, a QB is obviously what this team needs more than anything.

    Experts....
     
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  36. Harmalama

    Harmalama Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Well at least the Patriots defense is statistically getting better! By the time we play them at the end of the season they will only be giving up 150!
     
  37. Zod

    Zod Ruler of the Universe

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    I'm not exactly the president of their fan club. Its just a vibe I'm getting from a couple of dudes sharing the same room.
     
  38. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Secondary will take care of itself when VD comes back, and by switching out Jones for Clemons, OL may as well if Carey and Colombo are injured.

    Front 7?

    Can't help you there, I have no answers for it, they seem uninspired for the most part.
     
  39. Zod

    Zod Ruler of the Universe

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    As bad as the defense has been it still only took 24 points to win the past two games. We have scored 13 points and 16 points in the past two weeks. That is two touchdowns in two games. And in both games the offense died in four downs to end the game.

    It doesn't take an expert to desire a better performance than that display of futility and for many its common sense to think the QB position could make this offense something better than futility.
     
  40. Harmalama

    Harmalama Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Nail on the head
     

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