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POLL about Henne's performance IF he completed 12 yards on the final drive

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by ToddsPhins, Sep 26, 2011.

How would you have rated Henne's Cleveland game if we won it on the final drive?

  1. Outstanding to elite

    5 vote(s)
    6.5%
  2. outstanding

    11 vote(s)
    14.3%
  3. very good to outstanding

    13 vote(s)
    16.9%
  4. verry good

    21 vote(s)
    27.3%
  5. good

    15 vote(s)
    19.5%
  6. average

    12 vote(s)
    15.6%
  1. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Despite showing obvious improvement from the end of last year to now, it seems like that's now not good enough.

    People said he has no ability to throw down field, which is why we didn't attack defenses last year they said. He's 2nd in the NFL in 20+ yard completions.

    People said he had no balls, was afraid to throw deep, and foolishly called him capt checkdown. He's taken as many shots downfield in 3 games without Henning around then he did in 2 years with him.

    People said he has no pocket presence and terrible feet. He's shown continual signs of improvement here, is making plays with his feet, and has 111 rushing yards (ranked 33rd in NFL), 7.9 avg, and 1 rush TD.... which is ironic b/c he has more rushing yards & TDs than Ricky Williams & Ronnie Brown.

    People said he had no leadership ability...... yet he stepped up & took the team by the horns in the offseason to where his teammates awarded him Captain.

    People said he had no brains...... yet he was praised by the team & staff for how quickly he learned the new playbook and helped implement the offense in Daboll's absence...... and in his 1st game with audible ability, he made some great calls and threw for 400+ yards & 2 TDs.


    Now, apparently, none of these obvious signs of improvement matter. All that apparently matters is that Chad, a QB who has played less than 2 full seasons of football, wasn't able to atone for his team's sloppy play during the final minute of a game. He can't just be a developing QB who is showing obvious signs of improvement; he has to now be playing like an elite veteran QB to be accepted. :glare:
     
    fin13 likes this.
  2. fin13

    fin13 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I know this is about Henne but Colt Mckoy completed 10 passes in the first 56 minutes and then he completed 9 for 80 yards to win the game.
    I know Henne should do better but this team doesn't play more than 55 minutes.
     
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  3. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Now you're adding in 3rd downs? lol. The guy who was one of the best 3rd down converters during the entire 2010 season now has "shortcomings" in this department?

    Are you saying you disapprove of Sam Bradford too?

    So how do you feel about the rest of our team during CRITICAL MOMENTS? I don't see you posting here how bad this ENTIRE TEAM looks in critical moments for the past 2 seasons. I get it bro. It's easier to throw one guy aside and toss all the blame on him so you don't have to be upset with an entire team. :wink2:
     
  4. BicketyBam

    BicketyBam No Fist Pumps Allowed

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    Hypothetically, if every fan on this forum decided to either support Henne or if all of you decided that he had to go, would it make ANY difference whatsoever on his future with the team? I have to think that this regime (or the next) is going to evaluate him on their own and really aren't going to be too concerned with what you guys think. Seems like a lot of wasted time and effort to sit here and defend or crucify the guy when in the end, what will be, will be. Just a thought.
     
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  5. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    If you say so CK. It's obvious Henne's performance wouldn't have been anything remotely below average if we were able to kick a FG at the end, so there's absolutely zero reason to throw in a ridiculous rating like "poor" so that biased Henne Haters could purposefully skew the poll. You think I'm stupid?! :lol: Average is at the low end for a legitimate reason. You're lucky I gave Henne Haters that irrational option to begin with.

    Nice try with this whole attempt on your part though.
    So far, 61 people could've voted for "average" if they wanted, but only 8 did, so your argument is flawed and meaningless. Do you think the other 52 people would've been like "hey, if sucked *** were an option, I would've definitely chosen that over outstanding or very good, butttt since it wasn't up there......."?


    I see what you did there. Nice job. I like how you tried to twist this into not being about the Browns, but about winning "most games" in the NFL. So are the Browns in the "most games" category or are they in the category of "non most games"?

    If you think it "should" take a very good to outstanding performance from our QB to account for our team's sloppy play and beat an inferior Browns team, then we have much worse problems than QB. We should be able to beat Cleveland with fundamental, sound football with a QB who has a 121 QBR in the game and doesn't make lots of mistakes.
     
  6. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    How come noone is talking about how pathetic the playcalling was on that final sequence?, which happens to be, coincidentally, the only time in the game where Henne seemed to play poorly?
     
  7. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Do you think Steeler or Raven fans, in a similar poll, would say they couldn't beat Cleveland without very a good to outstanding QB performance? I seriously doubt it. That would be a fun poll though...... just to see what the mindset is like of a fan base whose team has played solid football with a great defense for years.
     
  8. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    By what measure are we clearly better than Cleveland? Both teams were about the same statistically last season.
     
  9. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    probably because no one wants to listen to stuff like that Deej. lol.

    It doesn't matter what the team doesn't do or what Henne does do during the first 59 minutes....... And it doesn't matter the throw Henne makes in the 60th minute on 2nd down to put us in position to win the game if his inexperienced WR doesn't let the corner squeeze him on the sideline. So not only is he trying to make up for his team's poor 59 minutes of play, he's now trying to make up for his WR's error in the final minute, that same final minute that fans want to scapegoat the entire loss on.

    And it doesn't bother me that Gates messes the play up. He's young and developing; he'll see it on film and learn from it.
     
  10. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    One was 7-9 and in the playoff hunt up until Week 11 or so I believe. They also beat the Champions and came a controversial call short of beating the 2011 runner ups.

    The other team was 5-11.
     
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  11. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    Offensive Passer Rating:
    Cleveland: 75.0
    Miami: 74.8

    Defensive Passer Rating:
    Cleveland: 84.8
    Miami: 85.0

    Passer Rating Differential:
    Cleveland: -9.8
    Miami: -10.2

    Seems about even to me.
     
  12. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    We're arguably more talented. We outplayed them on the field in most aspects of the game. Only difference is, we were sloppy & left points on the field where as they didn't. If you take out that sloppiness, then Colt is left needing at least 1 onside kick at the end of the game for any chance to win it.

    With Cleveland not having Hillis, our defense should be able to take care of business to where a quality, mistake free game from our QB (like the one he had) should be enough to beat them, that is---- if we're the kind of team that wants to eventually become a contender.

    When your QB is outplaying their QB all game and your defense is better than their offense, there should be absolutely no reason for that game to come down to the final minute. It's embarrassing IMO.
     
  13. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    and that 5-11 team won a few games b/c their opponents made mistakes and played sloppy football IIRC.
     
  14. RGF

    RGF THE FINSTER Club Member

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    I think Henne played good up until that point, nothing more nothing less. And since we`re playing the if game ,how would you rate Henne`s performance if he threw an interception during our lone TD drive? The point I`m making is WHATS THE DIFFERENCE, it didnt happen.
     
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  15. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    That makes the 2 teams appear equal, but it doesn't show how sloppy one team played compared to the other and how many plays and points were left on the field or allowed b/c of it.
     
  16. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Stringer, if you believe Cleveland is as talented a team as Miami, I'm certainly not going to criticize you for it. I just would disagree.
     
  17. emocomputerjock

    emocomputerjock Senior Member

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    He didn't say that they were as talented.
     
  18. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    And, yes, I voted in the thread........ and, no, I didn't vote outstanding to elite.
     
  19. Ozzy

    Ozzy Premium Member Luxury Box

    Talented players and sloppy play, better percentages, equal percentage. Cleveland is 2-0 vs Miami in two seasons. I'd have to say they're better until the talent here beats them. imo
     
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  20. RGF

    RGF THE FINSTER Club Member

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    Do you really believe that the play calling was so bad on that final possession that Henne gets NO blame for not moving the ball an inch on FOUR plays. Hey,if thats what you believe so be it, but I sure dont. When we needed him most ,he didnt perform.
     
  21. FanMarino

    FanMarino Season Ticket Holder

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    Henne isnt the problem. The guy has been benched last 2 season for Wildcat for flips sake when we get inside 20. He hasnt got a bonafide TE to check down to and Bush hasnt been used to his max potential imo. Henne has been the most improved player on Offense. When u have one of the worst RT's in the NFL and a HC who fantasizes about FGs then u know its all uphill. Henne is improving. Rome wasnt built in a day.
     
  22. RGF

    RGF THE FINSTER Club Member

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    If you dont mind me asking ,why is this even an option in your poll?? Refresh my memory as to when Henne was ever "elite".
     
  23. RGF

    RGF THE FINSTER Club Member

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    Yes,Henne improved from last year. He went from average/poor to average/good. Question is,at this point in his career is that good enough?
     
  24. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    I agree to a degree, and IMO it's a disservice to not give them credit for being 2-0 against us.

    They're technically the better team, but they shouldn't be. They basically played to their talent level and won 5 games; we played below ours and won 7. IMO there's no excuse for that. That's kind of the point I'm trying to make--- that we shouldn't be allowing an inferior team to seem like they're better when it comes to wins and losses.
     
  25. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Four plays? Really? That's how irrational we're becoming? How about the great 2nd down throw that would've likely won the game if Gates has enough experience to not let Scrine force his route into the sideline? You realize the WR needs to give his QB some sideline to work with so he can put it over his outside shoulder, right? But I guess that incompletion is Henne's fault, huh?

    It's Henne's fault that he has a great throw go for nothing and then has only 2 more attempts after it to atone for his WRs error and his entire team's sloppy play. :glare:
     
  26. Buckeyetroop

    Buckeyetroop Active Member

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    Are you really defending his lack of gaining any yardage on the last drive? Regardless how you saw that throw to Gates, even you just said he had "only" two more attempts. Decision making and execution. I don't thinks that's asking too much from your QB in that situation.
     
  27. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Who said anything about Henne being elite. we're talking about his Cleveland performance, specifically what type of performance it would've taken from our QB to beat Cleveland if going isn't good enough on its own merit.

    Last year we lost 13-10 and Henne went 16/32, 50%, 164, 5.4 avg, 1 TD, 3 INTs, and a 37.8 QBR (granted the play calling after his 4th qtr TD pass was terrible and did nothing to help let Henne win the game).

    Now, after last year's game, would you have agreed with or said something like: "if Henne had only gone 19/25, 76%, 255, 10.2 avg, 1 TD, 0 INTs and a 121 QBR, we would've won that game."?? I think a lot of fans would've or did in fact make that type of "what if" statement last December.
     
  28. RGF

    RGF THE FINSTER Club Member

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    Todd,you`re dreaming up "what if" scenario`s and you`re asking me if I`m irrational ???? You`re stretching beyond belief.
     
  29. RGF

    RGF THE FINSTER Club Member

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    Exactly. You have a poll with an option being "elite" in regard to Henne in the Cleveland game.
     
  30. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Are you really disallowing the beautiful throw he made to Gates?

    Honestly here, how almost perfectly do you expect a young QB in his 30th NFL start to play in a new offense for 60 minutes despite his team playing sloppy, leaving points on the field, and botching that route? You're asking him to be Manning, Brady, or Marino.... and even those guys aren't guaranteed to convert on those last 2 passes.

    He was great for 59 minutes, but OUR TEAM was not. He was the best player on the field for the first 59 minutes.

    He played obviously well enough through the first 59 minutes & 31 seconds for us to win (which includes the Gates pass), but the rest of Miami did NOT.

    So, at the end of the game when our defense allowed ANOTHER late 4th qtr score or lead change, Henne's asked to carry the burden of the ENTIRE team during a last second attempt to win it.

    How does he respond? Did he actually not-execute? No. He did in fact execute. Despite tight coverage and being harassed all 2nd half with Jerry in for Carey, he throws a great deep pass on 2nd down that should've won the game for us. He executed; Gates did not.

    But unfortunately, like the first 59 minutes, the play was sloppy.... and just like the first 59 minutes, Henne was yet again asked to make up for this sloppiness. However, instead of having 4 plays to do it, he now only has 2. So according to you, our ENTIRE GAME came down to Chad not being able to gain 15 yards on his last 2 passes even though it's no guarantee Carpenter makes the FG.

    Henne executed well; the rest of the team did not. That's why we lost.
     
  31. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    McCoy didn't win b/c he "rallied" his team late. He won b/c we played sloppy, left points on the board, and allowed him to be in a position to win despite his poor game up to that point. Cleveland didn't leave points on the board. Their score was their score. That should've been a 2 score game prior to Cleveland's winning TD drive. Colt was allowed to play poorly for 55 minutes and still have a chance to win. Conversely, Henne had to play great for 60 minutes for us to have a chance.


    It's a lot a harder for a young QB to be forced into a high level of play for 60 minutes than it is to let him show up at the end b/c your team has allowed your opponent to stay in the game. It happens all the time. If you play sloppy and let your opponent linger around, there's a good chance they're going to take advantage of it and beat you.

    Chad wasn't in position to play poorly all game like Colt was. People will say, well it only matters what you do in the end, to which I respond---- if Henne played as poorly as McCoy through the first 55 minutes, he wouldn't have been in a situation to win like Colt was.
     
  32. Ozzy

    Ozzy Premium Member Luxury Box

    Until this team puts together a solid win or three, I cannot say that the talent is better. There is some better talent but not better overall talent and it's being exposed before our very eyes....
     
  33. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    my what if scenario has nothing to do with "well if Henne had only done this or Henne had done that, we would've won blah blah blah".

    The intention behind my "what if" poll was to see what kind of play Miami fans believe it would take from a Dolphin QB to beat a Cleveland team that we're better than on paper. That's it.


    I might add, what you're doing is rationalizing that it's OK for us to be a sloppy, mediocre team when we should instead be holding this entire team to the standard of a team capable of a playoff run.

    For 3 weeks now we've played poor, sloppy football and left points on the board (and yes, Henne has had some part in that, but definitely not the most significant part), and for 3 weeks fans have scapegoated Henne for not winning games late in the 4th qtr despite him playing great in 2 of those and well enough in the other to win.

    Does no one see the main problem with this? Bad teams put games on their QB's shoulders week after week. Great teams don't. We're not a bad team by any stretch, but we're playing like one, and the mentality of many fans is that of a bad team. Fans of bad teams will blame their QB for not winning this game here or that game there; fans of great teams will blame their sloppy team for losing a game b/c they hold their team to a higher standard. If the Steelers play sloppy, their defense allows a last minute TD to Colt McCoy, and Roethlisberger has a solid game but can't win it during the last 2 plays of the game, do you honestly believe Pitt fans are scapegoating Ben?..... or are they bitc#ing at their defense for folding under pressure to Colt McCoy? What if Pitt's defense folded under pressure for 3 straight games? Do you think they're scapegoating Ben for it?
     
  34. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Wow.

    Wow. I hope you're not talking about the throw to Gates on that last drive.
     
  35. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    I never said he was elite, and I didn't put "elite" as an option b/c there was no way his performance could've been considered elite. That would be an insult to every QB who's ever had an elite performance.

    I included "outstanding to elite" just to balance out the "average" option, and I would've left both inaccurate options off the poll, however if I did so, Henne non supporters would've irrationally complained there wasn't some negative way to rate the performance. As it turns out, one of them already did complain even with the "average" option available, although we all know in our objective minds, whether we want to admit it or not, his performance wouldn't have been average. Heck, his "actual" performance was no less than average (I'd call it good to very good), so there's no way he's "average" if we win the game in the end. Calling it "average" is an insult to every QB who's had a quality game like that.
     
  36. BicketyBam

    BicketyBam No Fist Pumps Allowed

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    Cleveland didn't play sloppy?! They did all they could to let you win it with the penalty on the TD and the horse collar on the kickoff. They handed the ball to you on the Cleveland 47, and only needing a FG to win! You can't get much worse than that. I don't care who Cleveland is playing, if they do that 5 games in a row, they will probably lose 4 of them.
     
  37. BicketyBam

    BicketyBam No Fist Pumps Allowed

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    Don't forget about Cleveland setting Miami up at the CLE 43 after a McCoy INT, which was eventually converted into a short field TD. That isn't poor play? Or when CLE had you 3rd and 12 at your own 5, sacked Henne at the 1, only to be called for roughing the passer? You would have been punting from your own 1, but instead Miami continues the drive and kicks a FG to put you up by 3. Then on a later drive they put you into FG range with an unnecessary roughing penalty. Miami gained 3 yards after that penalty and kicked a 38 yard FG. Stellar team play by Cleveland.

    All I know is that McCoy was pretty awful the whole game, and with 48 seconds left, needing a TD, he threw a PERFECT pass to his receiver.
     
  38. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    I can see your point, but I still believe our overall talent is better.

    Cleveland's score was their score. 17 pts. No fumbles in the redzone. No missed FGs. No missed TD receptions. They weren't sloppy.

    Miami scored 16 points. We left 3 or 7 pts off the board with Reggie's fumble at the 19. Another 3 with the missed FG.... and 4 more with Brandon's missed TD.
    That's 10-14 pts. If we didn't leave points on the field in the same way that Cleveland didn't, then the score is at least 26-16.... and the end of the game seems nothing more than a futile, come from behind attempt by Colt.

    Their top CB was on the field and able to play Brandon all game.
    Our top CB was injured, and his inexperienced back up was picked on.
    Carey went out, and it showed.
    Peyton Hillis was out, but he was ineffective the first time we played.


    The first game was similar to this one-- low scoring, down to the wire, some sloppiness on our part...... only talent wise, we had no Brandon Marshall..... and IMO Henne has improved more than McCoy has.

    This was the game where, when Henne got hot in the 4th qtr (6/6 for 56 yards, 10 yard scramble, and a TD pass on the 4th qtr drive to tie it up) only to have Henning call 6 wildcat runs in 8 plays during and immediately following this drive.

    4 of those WC runs AS SOON as Henne got us into FG range:
    **On Cleveland's 34 we ran WC on 1st & 2nd down; then Henne comes in with the pressure to convert 3rd down. He does so.
    **Next play, 1st down, Henne goes out b/c we're on Browns' 18; Henning runs 2 more freakin WC plays b/c the only time he likes his QB to take chances is at the end of the game when we're trailing. Henne faces the pressure of another 3rd down He throws a TD.
    **Starting our following possession at our own 35, Henning calls 2 more consecutive WC, keeping Henne off the field unable to help us win. Again Henne is burdened with a sudden 3rd & long despite not playing the previous 2 downs. He's pressured and scrambles. We punt. That's 3 consecutive set of downs in the 4th qtr with the game on the line where Henne was in a rhythm yet was pulled on 1st & 2nd down for a waste of a WC.

    **Then all of a sudden, with 4 minutes left, after calling 6 wildcat runs in 9 plays, Henning switches to Henne passing 3 straight times. We punt.
    **Next drive, 1:34 left, ONE time out, Henning calls a freakin run from our normal offense, arrogantly thinking it will be effective despite not calling a normal run with normal blocking during the previous 20 minutes. It unsurprisingly fails. On 2nd down, we're forced into hurry up to make up for his stupid call, and Henne throws an incompletion. On 3rd & 9, Henne throws an INT.


    TYPICAL HENNING BS. He takes the ball out of our QB's hand when we have a chance to score, but then thrusts him into the unfavorable position of picking up the slack in the final minutes after Henning's conservative mentality failed and/or the defense sacrifices a lead. If he's going to throw the game on a QB's shoulders like that, at least allow him the opportunity to prevent that from occurring in the first place by giving him a decent chance to score points when the game isn't on the line.

    People complain that, since the 2009 Pats game, Henne hasn't done much in the 4th qtr or hasn't had come from behind wins. Well this is a perfect example why, and there are more like it.
    Henning to Henne: "Chad, this is going to be a 2 or 3 point game late in the 4th quarter, so we're going to run the ball or call WC plays inside the 40 and settle for FGs, hope that our terrible ground game can run out the clock, and pray that our defense can hold up..... so you're not gonna be much part of that except to move us into FG range...... but if for summmm reason that fails, it's all on you man!"........... "Now I know we spend more practice time on WC plays & other trickery than we do the 2 minute offense or redzone passing, but that doesn't matter when my philosophy fails, my back is against the wall, and I need a scapegoat". :shifty:

    IMO Chad's currently recovering from this nonsense and will need a little time to do so.
     
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  39. BicketyBam

    BicketyBam No Fist Pumps Allowed

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    Cleveland aided Miami in 10 of their points. Take away the McCoy INT and the roughing the passer on your 1, and you can subtract 10. So your 26 becomes 16.
     
  40. rdhstlr23

    rdhstlr23 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Personally, I think Chad's struggles in the 4th quarter this year being linked to Henning is the biggest stretch I've heard yet.
     
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