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If Not Henne, Then Who?

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by AdamC13, Sep 28, 2011.

  1. AdamC13

    AdamC13 Well-Known Member

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    Serious question to all the fans that think Ireland and/or Sparano should be fired as a result of having Henne as the starting QB for the Dolphins, "Of all the realistic options after Henne was drafted by the Dolphins in 2008 "who" is it that Ireland/Sparano should have drafted, traded for or signed via FA that would have solved Miami's QB dilemma?"
     
  2. Zod

    Zod Ruler of the Universe

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    The reality is that Sparano was married to Henne once they entered 2010 season with him as the starter. A rookie could not have saved him this year. Absent "next step" from Henne, a super human effort out of the defense was going to have to save him. That isn't happening.
     
  3. AdamC13

    AdamC13 Well-Known Member

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    So you have no answer to the "who" Ireland and Sparano should have drafted, traded for or signed via FA?

    It is easy to say Henne sucks, these guys blew it, they are married to Henne, Henne is no Brady or Manning, they should have spent a 1st round pick on, ad absurdum, but what I don't hear from the fans complaining exactly "who" are the guy(s) they should have got that would have solved the Dolphins QB dilemma.
     
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  4. SRM

    SRM New Member

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    What you're asking isn't what people are angry with the FO for.. it's the drafting of Henne and Long over Matt Ryan that got to people.

    Besides that, maybe Ryan Mallet for the future, but that's all I can really think of.
     
  5. gamblerx

    gamblerx New Member

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    Skipping on Aaron Rodgers... when we needed a ****ing QB...
     
  6. AdamC13

    AdamC13 Well-Known Member

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    :lol: Matt Ryan would have solved the QB dilemma?

    Is more inaccurate or as inaccurate as Henne. Can't throw the deep ball worth a crap. Has had the benefit of a much better supporting cast (Turner, White, Gonzalez and now add Jones to the mix). We are getting to see just how good or not Ryan is when he is under similar pressure as Henne this year. Would have been given a contract greater than Russell's 6 year $61 million contract.

    That's it? Matt Ryan, I just don't see it...:sad:
     
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  7. AdamC13

    AdamC13 Well-Known Member

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    Happened 3 years before Ireland/Sparano were hired.
     
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  8. gamblerx

    gamblerx New Member

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    Still, Dolphins might not have a QB dilemma...
     
  9. AdamC13

    AdamC13 Well-Known Member

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    Hard to say. Rodgers wouldn't have had the luxury of sitting for 3 years learning from a legend. Certainly wouldn't have had talented WRs to throw to or a TE.

    Knock on Rodgers coming out was he was schooled under Jeff Tedford and QBs under his tutelage couldn't make the transition to the NFL. He may have needed that time on the bench to learn.

    Of course, most definitely, I would gladly take Rodgers over Henne right now, but Ireland/Sparano never had that option.
     
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  10. Zod

    Zod Ruler of the Universe

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    That response should have been saved for someone who has actually said "fire Sparano/Ireland". I'm just telling you reality surrounding a question you asked. There have been two coaches that I have been on board with firing.

    Wannstedt for fear that Jay Fiedler might still be starting.
    Cam Cameron for epic failure.
     
  11. danloc04

    danloc04 New Member

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    I was/am fine with Henne being the starter this season. I just think if we have the opportunity to upgrade in the next draft, we should pull the trigger.
     
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  12. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    He also would have had to start right away.

    Which might have meant he would still have the robotic Tedford tenancies. I heard Clayton talk on the radio that one of the benefits of Rogers sitting is that he went back to his high school throwing style
     
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  13. AdamC13

    AdamC13 Well-Known Member

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    Not meant as personal attack. I only agree with you 100% on both Wanny and Cam.
     
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  14. AdamC13

    AdamC13 Well-Known Member

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    Of course, Luck is a no brainer. I really like Moore, but he is a bit undersized. Hard to say which of the other QBs are definite upgrades...Landry, Barkley? Maybe, maybe not. Weeden will be 28 years old.

    If Miami is not in a position to get Luck the best option may be to sign Matt Flynn to compete with Henne and draft Blackmon or Broyles along with drafting or signing a pass-catching TE.

    When I look at the draft over the past 3 years since Henne was drafted I don't see a single QB on the board that is a clear upgrade over Henne when Miami was on the clock.
     
  15. Zod

    Zod Ruler of the Universe

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    I didn't take it personally. How can I be offended with something I would probably agree with. :lol:
     
  16. SRM

    SRM New Member

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    Not saying he would've, personally I think he'd be around where Henne is at now with how horrible our guys are at developing players. But a lot of people think we passed on a franchise QB by not drafting him which may or may not end up being the case.
     
  17. Zod

    Zod Ruler of the Universe

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    Whoever was drafted, signed as a FA, or traded after 2008 who has made the playoffs and is playing well as of today. That's the guy. I knew it back then and if these guys were not totally incompetent they would have known it too. :lol:
     
  18. AdamC13

    AdamC13 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, you are wise!

    The answer is...Michael Vick. Heard a deal was in the works until the Dolphins mascot vehemently protested fearing for his life.

    The irony of it. The key to Ireland/Sparano perhaps saving their job would have been to sign a felon doing time when they hired on.
     
  19. Trillfan

    Trillfan Banned

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    If I were a Chiefs fan I'd question the FO for taking Glen Dorsey over Matt Ryan but it's hard to argue against taking Jake Long even with the benefit of hindsight.

    QB's will always get too much credit or blame and on a losing team it's normally too much of the blame. Henne looks a lot better this year than he ever as but if the improvement doesn't translate into wins then he's going to be be targeted for replacement, fair or unfair that's just how it works.

    BTW, I totally agree. There really haven't been any realistic alternatives to Henne.
     
  20. HenneNator

    HenneNator Banned

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    Great post. Exactly right.
     
  21. DeDolfan

    DeDolfan Premium Member Luxury Box

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    You can read all about it last off season in all the draft threads.
     
  22. JMHPhin

    JMHPhin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I call it the curese of Brees. We made a mistake back in 01 and then had a shot at fixing that mistake and passed again. So my answer is Brees if we go to the root.

    As far as this regime, alot will say Ryan. And that may be true, but I think he really is the example of the lack of importance we place on the position, the lack of attention. You have to at some point go all in on a qb. We didnt do that with Brees, Rodgers, Ryan and I dare say henne.

    Why do I say Henne? Because if you blieve qb is thee most important position and you think Henne is that guy, then why are you not evaluating his strengths and weaknesses and designing the offense around him? We tried for 2 years to fit him into the existing system. Now he has been demonized somewhat. I like him and I actually think he has handled the adversity well and has worked hard. But has too much water gone under the bridge? Does he have the team? What is his ceiling? Unless we have a miraculous turnaround and compete once we get in the playoffs not just get there?

    If Sparano gets fired and it looks more likely each week, Henne has not proven enough and likely wont prove enough that the new regime can in good faith pass on the type of qb that appears available in this draft, and if the new regime would pass on a qb in rd 1 then I lose faith imediately in the new regime.

    remember I am a henne fan. Sometimes things happen that arent fully his fault, that arent teh qbs doing, but teh reality is qb is the most important position, and at some point potential ends and you have to move on. It may not be all his fault but you have to go on results, and Henne right now doesnt have teh results to warrant making him the long term answer.
     
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  23. AdamC13

    AdamC13 Well-Known Member

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    Yet no one appears able to come up with realistic names in this thread.
     
  24. dolfan22

    dolfan22 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    Not sure if I got the intent of your post correctly , you think Sparano is a good coach and should be retained , and the same with Ireland?
     
  25. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    Ryan was drafted 2 spots ahead of Dorsey.
     
  26. Zod

    Zod Ruler of the Universe

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    I think Jeff Ireland has assembled more talent on this roster than any other person since Jimmy Johnson. I think there was a 10 year drought of talent before Jimmy Johnson got there too. Do I want to get rid of that guy? Hell no.

    I am ambivalent on the Sparano thing but I'm leaning toward "The message is stale."
     
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  27. HenneNator

    HenneNator Banned

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    He would not have needed to if our kicker can make an easy FG or our defense didn't let some 76 rated bum march 80 yards in less than 2 minutes.
     
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  28. AdamC13

    AdamC13 Well-Known Member

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    This is an argument I don't agree with. Outside of Luck there aren't any college QBs making a statement right now they are worthy of a 1st round pick. Kellen Moore's skill level is worthy, but at 6'1", 191 lbs it would be a big gamble to make him "the guy" to build around. He may end up spending more time on IR than on the field.

    For this current regime the options have been dismal. If they decided Henne wasn't the guy following 2008 the past 3 drafts the QBs available to them by the time Miami was on the clock in round 1 have been:

    Andy Dalton, Colin Kaepernick, Ryan Mallett, Ricky Stanzi, T.J Yates, Nathan Enderle, Tyrod Taylor, Greg McElroy, Tim Tebow, Jimmy Clausen, Colt McCoy, Mike Kafka, John Skelton, Jonathan Crompton, Rusty Smith, Dan LeFevour, Joe Webb, Tony Pike, Levi Brown, Sean Canfield, Zac Robinson, Pat White, Stephen McGee, Rhett Bomar, Nate Davis, Tom Brandstater, Mike Teel, Keith Null, Curtis Painter, Kevin O'Connell, John David Booty, Dennis Dixon, Josh Johnson, Erik Ainge, Colt Brennan, Andre Woodson, Matt Flynn, Alex Brink (add to list any undrafted QB).

    Which one of these players should this regime have spent a 1st round pick on?

    Flynn may be worthy of a look as a UFA next year but he was so lightly regarded coming out he went in the 7th round.

    Looking at all the 1st round picks since 1990:

    Cam Newton, Jake Locker, Blaine Gabbert, Christian Ponder, Sam Bradford, Tim Tebow, Matthew Stafford, Mark Sanchez, Josh Freeman, Matt Ryan, Joe Flacco, JaMarcus Russell, Brady Quinn, Vince Young, Matt Leinart, Jay Cutler, Alex Smith, Aaron Rodgers, Jason Campbell, Eli Manning, Philip Rivers, Ben Roethlisberger, J.P. Losman, Carson Palmer, Byron Leftwich, Kyle Boller, Rex Grossman, David Carr, Joey Harrington, Patrick Ramsey, Michael Vick, Chad Pennington, Tim Couch, Donovan McNabb, Akili Smith, Daunte Culpepper, Cade McNown, Peyton Manning, Ryan Leaf, Jim Druckenmiller, Steve McNair, Kerry Collins, Heath Shuler, Trent Dilfer, Drew Bledsoe, Rick Mirer, David Klingler, Tommy Maddox, Dan McGwire, Todd Marinovich, Jeff George, Andre Ware.

    The above list entails a whole lot of wasted 1st round draft picks that have cost more than one GM and HC their jobs. Of course, the jury is still out on some of the young guys but most of these QBs ended up with a failing grade. Of the 52 QBs listed above I did a rough count of only "18" ever led their team to the playoffs (again rough count. I may be off 1 or 2). A couple of those QBs like Sanchez, Grossman, Culpepper, Flacco, etc... were drafted by really good teams that had all the pieces in place.

    Taking even a closer look at QBs drafted in the top 10 which is where Miami appears to be headed in this year's draft:

    Cam Newton, Jake Locker, Blaine Gabbert, Sam Bradford, Matthew Stafford, Mark Sanchez, Matt Ryan, JaMarcus Russell, Vince Young, Matt Leinart, Alex Smith, Eli Manning, Philip Rivers, Carson Palmer, Byron Leftwich, David Carr, Joey Harrington, Michael Vick, Tim Couch, Donovan McNabb, Akili Smith, Peyton Manning, Ryan Leaf, Steve McNair, Kerry Collins, Heath Shuler, Trent Dilfer, Drew Bledsoe, Rick Mirer, David Klingler, Jeff George, Andre Ware.

    Out of this list, the cream of the crop coming out of college there have been ONLY 3 QBs having won a Super Bowl.... E. Manning, P. Manning and Trent Dilfer (yes, Dilfer). And all 3 only won the Super Bowl "once" each.

    Then looking at the QBs taken #1 overall:

    Newton, Bradford, Stafford, Russell, Smith, E. Manning, Palmer, Carr, Vick, Couch, P. Manning, Bledsoe, Goerge ONLY "2" have even taken their team to a Super Bowl (the Manning brothers)...Russell, Smith, Carr, Couch, Goerge have been epic fails.

    Over the last 12 Super Bowls 6 have been won by starting QBs not taken in round 1. And 7 of the starting QBs on the losing team were not taken in round 1 which adds up to 13 of the past 24 starting QBs (54.2%) were not taken in round 1.

    Players like Brees, Favre, Brady, Montana, Warner all show that franchise, HOF, Super Bowl winning QBs are often found outside of round 1.
     
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  29. AdamC13

    AdamC13 Well-Known Member

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    TEAM is the key word in that statement. Sure helped the NFC South got to play against the NFC West and had Carolina on the schedule twice. Last time Miami had the NFC West on their schedule they went 11-5 and won the division.

    Did you watch him in the playoffs against GB? Ryan killed em.
     
  30. AdamC13

    AdamC13 Well-Known Member

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    I had all but given up on Henne heading into this season until I watched him play. I couldn't believe my eyes at first, but he has consistently shown tremendous improvement.

    But what you are saying here is right on. Henne has yet to show improvement in the 2:00 offense. Some of the responsibility imo falls on Daboll. Where were the calls that hit a RB on a screen or clearing out the middle and getting Bush 1-on-1 with a LB or a designed roll out as Henne has shown mobility and a willingness to run with the ball getting 10-20 yard chunks. Something...anything other than continually trying to rely on the WR to get open on the outside. It is the same play-calling that is killing Miami in the red zone imo. Those plays are not successful. In looking at the play that ended Miami's final drive there was just no one to throw to so it was forced to a double covered BM. Terrible throw on Henne's part, but had to force it given the context.

    Also, against NE Miami had the ball with 2:23 on the clock, 1st and 10 at 46 and two timeouts. Yet there was no sense of urgency...at all! Ran out the game on a drive that didn't result in points, but an interception on the final play. Took 2:23 to go 37 yards with 2 TOs and 2-min warning...not good. Wasn't only Henne that didn't have that urgency but as QB he has to take a big part of the responsibility.

    Of course, there was the game against Pitt last year as well that was winnable by getting a FG at the end of the game. A little less than 2:00 minutes to get 35-40 yards but team went 3 and out.

    If Henne is ever to get to the point where he is knocking on the door of being a top 10 type QB that has to improve. Besides that, which is no small thing, I really like what Henne is showing on the field.
     
  31. rdhstlr23

    rdhstlr23 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I don't think Sparano and Ireland should be fired because of Henne. I think the should be let go because A's Zod put it "the message is stale". Not only that but most importantly, they haven't won. And although Ireland has put together a roster of solid talent, he's still in charge of Sparano and you live and die with whom you pair yourself with. I don't know many GM's and HC's that last after 3 straight underachieving years in this era.

    As for an answer to your question, I don't want to get into this debate, but I'd prefer Matt Ryan over Henne. Say what you will about him, but he has the most comeback wins of any QB since he was drafted I believe. Josh Freeman is number 2. You see what Cam Newton, Matt Stafford (now healthy), Sam Bradford, Matt Ryan, Josh Freeman, Ryan Fitzpatrick, Mike Vick, Joe Flacco, and Jay Cutler.

    Now we had no shot at Stafford, Bradford, or Newton, but every other player was available when we were drafting, free agency, or by trade. All of these players are debatable but you can have serious discussion about over decisions to get over Henne. I'd didn't even include Mark Sanchez for the sake of bypassing that discussion.
     
  32. rdhstlr23

    rdhstlr23 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Reggie was singled up on a LB on two plays on that last drive actually.
     
  33. AdamC13

    AdamC13 Well-Known Member

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    Wish I had the game taped to go back and look. Was open?
     
  34. Rick 1966

    Rick 1966 Professional Hipshooter

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    Henne isn't a top-tier QB and he likely never will be one, but you can win with a QB like Henne...he isn't the main problem on this team. The main problem is coaching and the secondary problem is...well, the secondary.
     
  35. Phyl

    Phyl New Member

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    We could've drafted Josh Freeman in 2009 if we didn't trade down for Vontae Davis. He's the anti-Henne. May not start hot but the guy is clutch and his teammates would die for him.
     
  36. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    76 rated bum march down the field. But our 82 bum who was 100+ before that 4th quarter couldn't get 10 yards. What does that say about Henne.
     
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  37. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    When was the last time a team won the AFC with a QB who wasn't top-tier?
     
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  38. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I saw him play a beautiful game against Baltimore when his run game was non-existent.

    Did you watch Henne in the playoffs against ... oh yeah that's right. Well, that's because we have no run game. Once we have a run game we'll ... oh wait. Well, it's the coordinator. Once we change coordinators we'll. Damnit!!!! We have no receivers. Once we have a pro-bowl receivers ... Shoot!

    I'm no good at this.
     
  39. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Ravens, Raiders (Gannon was darn good though at the twilight of his career) or Brady before he was elite.

    That's it! All we need is to lure Bill Belichick away from the Patriots.
     
  40. AdamC13

    AdamC13 Well-Known Member

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    I am not saying Ryan is not a decent QB, but needs the pieces around him. The question I have is who realistically this regime passed over...no way Miami drafts Flacco with the #1 overall pick. That would not be a positive way to make a splash for this regime. I give them credit for taking Long. The guys that were in discussion were Jake, Chris Long, and Glenn Dorsey...great call on Jake.

    Not a fan of Cutlers, not seeing how he would of done much. Vick...circumstances dictated differently. Fitzpatrick would have been nice, but sure didn't show the stuff with the Rams or Bengals. Honestly, don't think Miami has had the luxury of moving up in the draft. We are looking at basically turning over the entire roster with a few exceptions for a 1-15 team. Fourth year adding 50 new players to active roster is 12.5 new players per year. I don't see how Miami could have given up draft picks to get Freeman. Sanchez, yes, hope he has a long career as the Jets starter.

    Really of the players listed I see Fitzpatrick and Vick as realistic possibilities. I don't really think they "missed" on Fitzpatrick as much as Fitz just hadn't shown anything to indicate he would be as good as he is now. Had Penny still as starter and Henne on bench. Hmmm...Fitz didn't come into his own until 6th year, Henne is in 4th year. And Vick...eh, would have been a tough call to turn franchise over to him but may have been a possibility.
     

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