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Chad Henne situational stats

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Disgustipate, Sep 27, 2011.

  1. Zod

    Zod Ruler of the Universe

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    I am not here to impress you.

    I have taught football to resource kids. I know how difficult it is in person much less over the internet.
     
  2. DeDolfan

    DeDolfan Premium Member Luxury Box

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    A rather generic stat as it doesn't begin to tell the whole story. Henne has only thrown 3 completions longer than 20 yds. Assuming that these did go go >25yds, that means the others were by RACs and not henne's downfield throwing. His downfield % is <30%.

    http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/splits/_/id/11291/chad-henne
     
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  3. maynard

    maynard Who, whom?

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    nonsense
     
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  4. Trillfan

    Trillfan Banned

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    Avg yards to gain on 3rd down should also be included.
     
  5. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    And this is where the problem comes in. So you fault him for a bad deep ball percentage. Last year people were crying that he didn't have good ball placement so his receivers weren't getting YAC. This is the first fan base that will get mad that a QB gets long pass plays 'the wrong way'
     
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  6. DeDolfan

    DeDolfan Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Problem? WTF are you talking about. I merely stated a fact, so get over it. I only brought that up as some were speaking of his improved down field accuracy based on a bland stat. perfect example, Brady's 99 1/2 to Welker. 'nuf said.
     
  7. Zod

    Zod Ruler of the Universe

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    Henne started the five step drop from shotgun on the first series versus the Texans and wouldn't you know the first series ended with an edge rush from outside Jake Long. Vs the Patriots it was all three step bounce.

    I have watched the 4th quarter vs the Patriots and both QBs were three step. I have watched the first quarter of Rams/Ravens and neither of those two were greater than three step drop from the gun. As a matter of fact, no QB I have seen takes as deep a THREE step drop as Henne. The five steps are out of the question.

    Henne is screwing himself setting this deep. I don't know who our QB coach is but he has to see this. I noticed it during the Texans game just because it looked odd..........and NO, when it comes to the QB and shotgun I don't know their individual technique. I just know that our QB didn't start doing it and nobody else does it. It seems to me that nobody else does it because it doesn't make sense.

    Does anybody else remember Dan Henning's response, "This particular QB likes being under center" when responding to reporters question about the shotgun?
     
  8. Jaj

    Jaj Registered

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    Karl Dorell is the QB coach and that's part of the problem. I'm not sure why they're passing out of the shotgun for Henne. The only thing it arguably does is present more space for him to run for some first down yardage, but the difference isn't enough to justify giving up a huge arc to linemen. I'd much rather form a cohesive pocket, reduce the amount of play action and rely on a mix of Henning and Daboll's offenses. Right now the Dolphins would probably be better off acquiring a better second running back and focusing on becoming a ball control offense that features a spread look of 3 WRs or 4 WRs.

    - Henning's problem last year:

    - poor play calls
    - poor personnel on the field instead of Bess
    - no pass catching RBs
    - Henne was not in the same shape
    - very bad PA attempts

    Daboll's problems

    - Way too much shotgun formation
    - Use of Reggie Bush
     
  9. Jaj

    Jaj Registered

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    Wouldn't pass protection be better if Henne were to take snaps under center? He's also probably better at viewing the field out of that, thus making his decisions quicker especially on third down (it's what Henning used to make Miami successful on third down).

    I'm not sure the shotgun is even necessary. If Colombo's area to cover were limited (along with Carey's I'm fairly sure pass blocking) would improve.
     
  10. thisperishedmin

    thisperishedmin Well-Known Member

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    Something feels dirty about realizing Henning did something better than our current offense is doing something...
     
  11. FinsAreLife

    FinsAreLife Well-Known Member

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    Red zone scoring. Its that simple. If we finished just once in the cleveland game we win. If we finished 2 times in the red zone in the Houston game, we win.
     
  12. Jaj

    Jaj Registered

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    Whatever the case is I would argue that if Kevin Kolb can net the Eagles a very good CB and a second round pick it's important that the Dolphins improve Henne's production to an even higher level. The value that the Eagles got for Kolb was easily worthy of a first round pick. It's in Miami's interest to definitely get Henne producing as best as possible so that in a year they can in the worst-case scenario trade him (if they draft a top QB).
     
  13. Zod

    Zod Ruler of the Universe

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    Poor guard play is making Colombo look worse than he is IMO. Although I must confess that the Browns is the first game I reviewed this year. That guard was John Jerry and he was really bad in pass pro. He leaves too much space in between he and Colombo after punching a 1 tech to assist Pouncey.

    If Henne is wrong here I am fairly certain it is due to passing concepts being linked to his feet.
     
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  14. Jaj

    Jaj Registered

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    Which is unbelievable that considering he works fairly well he still doesn't have proper footwork and you can see it there is something out of place about Henne's footwork that I'm not convinced was even there at Michigan. This coaching staff is terrible in that regard. Chad Pennington as a quarterback coach wouldn't be the worst thing. His footwork is impeccable.
     
  15. Zod

    Zod Ruler of the Universe

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    I just spoke with a former college, nfl, and cfl coach. He's been everywhere in the last 30 years. He said he has never heard of a 5 step drop out of the gun. I told him my suspicion about routes being linked to the feet and he said, "More than likely that's what it is.". I said, "how do you protect that?". He said, "You can't."

    Has anyone else actually went back to watch this? Once you see it and do the math - I think you'll see why I will not let it die. It's stupid.
     
  16. HenneNator

    HenneNator Banned

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    Then Dorrell needs fired, that is his job.
     
  17. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    Yeah, going on a tirade over nothing isn't becoming of your point. And "'nuf said" doesn't make your point more valid.

    My point is, when we see him with a lot of long pass plays, we have to qualify it as "but that's YAC". Also, his percentage last year was 15.4%. That's an improvement, no? Guess what. He only took 13 shots last year 21-30. This year after three games he has 10.

    Do you think QB's usually have 50% numbers on 30+ yard passes? The people with high percentages have not thrown 10 passes down field yet. He's taking the shots more than just about every QB in the NFL right now.

    Brady is 0% on passes 21-30 yards. Matt Ryan, the Dolphins MVP, is 0%. Flacco is 38% with 8 tries. That number usually balances out for QB's as attempts go up. He's basically around Henne.
     
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  18. Zod

    Zod Ruler of the Universe

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    I'm on board with that. It was a stupid move to begin with. If I see it anymore, I may start a letter writing campaign to fire the two offensive line coaches too. How in the hell are three NFL coaches and their quality control assistants (who grade film) not seeing it? They have to know. Anthony Fasano was *****ing at Henne for the depth after he gave up a sack. Watch that sack. Heck, it might be on NFL.com highlights. I meant to check today and link it.
     
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  19. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    I can't stand Henning, but Daboll would be smart to incorporate last year's 3rd down & 7 or less offense. That's about the only thing I liked from Henning, and Henne, Bess, and Marshall were elite at it. If that part ain't broke, then Daboll shouldn't be trying to fix it IMO.

    With 2 better receiving backs added to the mix, I don't see why we couldn't maintain the same success.
     
  20. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Good point about the cover 1 stuff. He's really just now starting to use his feet, and we've recently seen him make a few throws on the run, so hopefully he sees this stuff on film and gradually becomes more comfortable and more accustomed to looking for plays downfield while he's taking off. IMO this is something that will have to be a work in progress for him.
     
  21. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    Last year the worst grading OT according to PFF was Levi Brown at -41.2. It was the worst OT grade by far over the 3 seasons PFF has been doing this. Colombo allowed 8 pressures vs Cleveland which led to his pass blocking grade of -6.1 and an overall 3 game grade of -9.5. If he continues at this rate, his overall grade will be around a -50. He will easily set the record, as for PFF grade, for most inept OT over the last 4 seasons. Hard to believe, but 4 other OTs are doing even worse. RTs Jeromey Clary and Wayne Hunter, and LTs Sam Baker and Jonathan Scott. Baker and Colombo are tied with most pressures allowed at 13. Baker is facing better pass rushers though, playing LT, at least in theory.
     
  22. Zod

    Zod Ruler of the Universe

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    No offense but from the day they began charting stuff I did not trust some of it. Let's take my example for instance. Above all John Jerry has to eat space. If Pouncey is shaded he is going to punch that defender so Pouncey can get leverage. At the same time he has to drop step and check back to Colombo because the man over Colombo has attacked inside. Jerry's job is to punch that guy too but he did not. Jerry engaged the DT and left a yards worth of space between he and Colombo. So who gets the pressure in this grade? Colombo who had the pressure over the top of him? Or Jerry who left the yards worth of space? Me, I'm tacking that one on Jerry. But I rewinded that play 3 times to see what happened. I highly doubt PFF is making such an investment. I believe its more like "He was aligned over Colombo."

    Let's move on to the next example. I have been ranting on and on about Henne taking a 5 step drop from shotgun. That drop places him anywhere from 8 and 3/4 to 10 yards deep. If Henne must step up, it's a pressure. If Henne has to do anything other than sit down in the pocket and throw the ball, it's a pressure. So who gets the blame from "pressure" coming from outside Colombo? Has PFF got a column for "The dumbass should not drop that deep"?

    Let move on to the next example. Colombo has a 9 tech aligned outside of him. That particular fellow picks up his hand and drops to the flat. A linebacker from inside Colombo comes on the blitz. Hey! He was showing blitz up on the LOS aligned inside Colombo. Colombo starts his kickslide, sees the 9 tech drop into coverage and then procedes to punch the inside LB. Daniel Thomas totally whiffs on the block. The ball is aired out or the QB is sacked. Who gets charged with that gaff? Colombo blocked nobody but the fellow he punched. That particular fellow got credit for the pressure and on paper that fellow is blocked by Daniel Thomas.

    It goes on and on.........and I don't trust PFF in that regard. It's not as simple as he threw the ball and no player caught it - incomplete.
     
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  23. Zod

    Zod Ruler of the Universe

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  24. Zod

    Zod Ruler of the Universe

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    http://www.nfl.com/videos/cleveland-browns/09000d5d8228c0de/Browns-defense-sack-3-yd-loss

    And here is a fine example of Henne causing MORE problems. Gocong comes on the blitz which leaves the flat open. This isn't a protection issue. This is a blitz issue. Watch the coverage on the inside receiver on the bottom of your screen. The BALL goes there because the blitz originates from there.

    The quarterback can make the O-line look worse than it really is.......

    http://www.nfl.com/videos/cleveland...Browns-defense-sack-3-yd-loss?continuous=true

    Who gets PFF credit for this "sack"?
     
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  25. Zod

    Zod Ruler of the Universe

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  26. DeDolfan

    DeDolfan Premium Member Luxury Box

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    He had 24 last yr, but no matter, that is not the point. The OP said he was tied for 1st with passes 25+ yds, which is true, to which I had countered that it was not by virtue of the downfield pass as much as the YACs. Back to brady, how far did he throw the ball to Welker on that 99ydr? Those yds were 90% wolker on that play. brady throws the ball maybe 8-9 yds but it will show as one of these 25+ yd passes. All I'm saying is that everything is not always what they seem to be.
     
  27. DeDolfan

    DeDolfan Premium Member Luxury Box

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  28. Zod

    Zod Ruler of the Universe

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    Okay, I laughed........but I'm not giving you "laugh out loud."
     
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  29. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    Yeah, you're right. I misread that. So he has thrown nearly half the same amount of passes in 20% of the amount of games played. He has an increased percentage of 5% instead of double as I previously contended. He's still taking more shots and is more accurate. Heck, Matt Ryan was 22% in that range last year and he's still 0% this year. He's shown improvement.

    This guy disagrees.


    Which is why I countered with why does it matter if they're YAC plays? Two guys are tied with Henne on that list. Stafford and Romo. Stafford is only 1 for 2 on deep pass plays. That means even MORE of his passes than Henne's came from YAC. That's what happens when you have guys like Jahvid Best who can take a screen to the house. The other guy tied with Henne, Romo, has 4 deep completions. Meaning, he only has one more long play that didn't come from YAC than Henne.

    So are they problems to? Did you honestly believe our team is the only team in the league that gets YAC and that every other QB except for ours is some mad bomber?

    All I'm saying is that EVERYONE gets a lot of long pass plays from YAC. You are trying to use YAC to denigrate Henne's performance yet he's squarely in the middle of the two players tied with him for long pass completions.
     
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  30. DeDolfan

    DeDolfan Premium Member Luxury Box

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    You're not hearing me. I;m not concerned with anyone else, who he's compared to or otherwise but only the fact that this stat does not mean his downfield throwing is greater or worse. The perception it gives is that ig he is tied with the most long passing play then he must be one of the better downfield passers. That is not necessarily the case.
     
  31. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    I'll simplify it then. EVERY NFL QB uses YAC. In fact, his deep passing numbers are IN LINE with MOST QB's. He has improved over last year on the deep ball percentage and where he is now is about where MOST QB's are.

    Just because you don't like the number doesn't mean he's doing poorly. Just like every other QB, he's making YAC yards and a few deep balls. If he is in line with the other QB's tied with him, why aren't you making a stink about their performance? Maybe because you're trying to cling to a stat in order to keep hold of what you want to believe even though where Henne is at is where most other QB's are.
     
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  32. Springveldt

    Springveldt Season Ticket Holder

    Doesn't explain the fact that Carey got beat in under 1 second as well.

    Henne shouldn't be going that deep but he is running for his life in under 2 seconds from a depth of 12 yards or so. The right side of our line barely gets a hand on 2 guys, if Henne takes a 3 step drop there he's going to get killed by the guy who just blew past Carey.
     
  33. Springveldt

    Springveldt Season Ticket Holder

    If it's a 3 step drop then #56 gets him instead as the whole interior of the OL has been pushed about 8 yards deep. He would have no space to actually throw the ball.

    I've a hunch that Henne knows the pass protection is atrocious and he's trying to buy any extra time he can. He's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.

    Those other plays you highlighted I totally agree Henne is at fault on them as it looks like he was reverting to "horny rhino" mode rather than "chad vick" mode. :)
     
  34. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    All he needs to do is take a step up, then sidestep to his left, and he'd have a nice pocket to work with.
     
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  35. DeDolfan

    DeDolfan Premium Member Luxury Box

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    You're the one making the stink. All I've been saying is that this one stat, passes > 25 yds is not a clear indication of downfield throwing. for all that tells you, there may not have been a ball thrown over 5 yds. It is a inconclusive stat for what he's done so far. It has nothing to do with how much he's improved or not nor comparing him with any other. When most ppl look at that one stat they get the impression that he's really hitting the deep passes.
     
  36. BicketyBam

    BicketyBam No Fist Pumps Allowed

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  37. Zod

    Zod Ruler of the Universe

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    Didn't I mention the "poor guard play." Didn't I say that I have not reviewed but the Browns game?
     
  38. Trillfan

    Trillfan Banned

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    Which sack are you talking about?

    There was one play where where the OL was run blocking as if it was a draw and Henne took the snap and didn't hand it off. He just kinda stood there until he got sacked. Bush and Fasano were both looking like WTF? Is that the play you're referring to?
     
  39. Zod

    Zod Ruler of the Universe

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    .................and I've had a hunch that Dan Henning knew this quarterback.

    But while we're at making the excuses, why don't we excuse John Jerry for engaging the DT to his left and leaving a wide gap in between he and Colombo. Why don't we excuse everybody for everything they screw up because "Hey, they are just covering for the ineptitude of another." What is it Bill Bellichek says?

    Just do YOUR job!
     
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  40. Zod

    Zod Ruler of the Universe

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    It may have been that play. It was early in the game. I don't have time to go back and see how early but he had me fooled if it was a draw. Too me it looked as if a man just rushed from outside Fasano and then Fasano just run he back deep. After the play Fasano looks toward the pile with Colombo helping Henne up and does a hand gesture like "WTF?"
     

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