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where it all went wrong thread

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Aquafin, Nov 4, 2011.

  1. Aquafin

    Aquafin New Member

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    the poor house
    I have been thinking and i have come to the conclusion of how Miami, our team, has ended up being this bad. Many around here will say it started with Bill Parcells and Ireland and then others will say it started after Shula retired . here is my trouble with how this club has been operating.

    First let me say some players that i will mention will probally not be liked by some of you so the views of how good those players were is debatable yet in my own opinion do i feel we cut with too soon and too late.


    Our problems started when Cam took over after Saban Left . we passed on two qbs we took a qb in rd 2 we threw hin into a game that he wasnt ready to play against a team that was darn good in Philly the results were bad so we rushed Beck out the door then comes 18 other qbs and the revolving door keeps on spinning.

    we take Ted Ginn jr in rd one instead of linebacker Patrick Willis or the tightend that was hot on peoples list at the time. then comes a series of questionable moves.

    we had 2 tightends that were athletic but not hall of famers by no means . we 1 pro bowl receiver we had Zach , Jason , Sam , and Patrick Surtain. not to mention a hall of fame wr in Wes Welker.

    ok here is where i feel Miami failed . we trade Welker who is a stud and enters Bess and Hagan neither will likely be pro bowlers let alone a hall of famer. we trade him to a divisional rivial Bad move we trade Chris Chambers for a draft pick ok not such a bad move but we didnt replace him with anyone better.we picked up Matt Roth if memory is correct . so instead of beefing up one side of the ball we create more holes then our aging vets Zach ,Sam and Jason and whoever that defensive tackle was all got old plus the salary was too much to pay for.


    all Miami had to do was fix one side of the ball, first mainly defense and our team would not have been so full of holes .

    had Miami kept Welker , Chambers, Donald Lee and Rand McMichael and gave John Beck some more time or had we kept Frerotte then our offense would not have gotten so bad at the same time our defense then we would have had more success. we replaced Zach With Crowder and replaced Surtain and Madison with who ? so then we add Camerillo , Hagan Bess and two other guys but guess what none of these guys scare oposing defenses.

    so with the revovling door at qb its no wonder we are a mess Fasano at first was a good replacement for McMichael but now I can honestly say McMichael has scored more touchdowns in san diego the what his replacement have combined.

    the bottom line dont try to fix all the positions at once
    IF Miami would have focused on one side of the ball and replaced those guys with someone similar then we wold not be in this mess.

    there is no way in hell I let Wlker and Chamers go as for Zach the concousons played a factor here but a wise gm doesnt let all these guys go without replacing them with someone better or at least someone almost as good.


    SAY WHAT YOU WANT BUT i HAVE NO HATE FOR ANY OF THE GUYS WE REPLACED THE OTHERS WITH . BUT truth is all we did was create more holes instead of iling the holes.

    this comes from my heart so i probally should expect a rebuttal from my fellow fin fans ,so this is my theory on how and where it all went wrong.



     
  2. mommabilly

    mommabilly No riders allowed

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    Beck sucks now, he sucked then and he will always suck. It went wrong when they selected Jake Long over Matt Ryan.

    BOTOM LINE no team is going anywhere without a very good QB. No, Chad Henne was not a very good QB. It all starts there.
     
  3. pacadermng67

    pacadermng67 New Member

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    Matt Ryan isnt playing exceptionally this year. I actually think Henne might have played as well as Ryan THIS year.
     
  4. PigMuffin

    PigMuffin New Member

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    We werent gonna keep Welker. He didnt want to play here and NE offered him the proverbial "poison pill" contract that we couldnt match.

    It all went wrong when we neglected the most important position on the team for years. We had great defenses but when you have Jay Fiedler as your qb you are limited in how far you can go. Wanny overruled Speilman and took Fletcher when Spielman wanted Brees. We brought in retred after retred to play qb from trent green to gus ferotte to Cleo Lemon.

    Amazing what a qb can mask. So many people gave Parcells and Sparano credit for that turn around from a one win season to a division title. But it was Penny's MVP type season that was the reason. Until we decide we want to take the qb situation seriously and actually attempt to get a franchise qb instead of trading 2nd round picks for backups than nothing will change.
     
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  5. cdz12250

    cdz12250 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    The problem is much older.

    It started when Shula got old.
    It continued when JJ realized he wasn't going to do here what he did in Dallas and quit.
    It bottomed when JJ anointed Wannstache, destroyer of two storied franchises, as his heir apparent.
    It continued when Satan lied and flew off to Alabama.
    It bottomed again when Cam drafted the whole Ginn family.
    It continued when the Tuna was given the reins, and Huizenga quit and then the Tuna quit.
    It progressed to the most embarrassing offseason ever, when our new owner made fools of us.
    And we are at an all-time low after the mentally challenged Sparano and Ireland were left to run the team without the Tuna to lean on.

    We never replaced Shula, and we never replaced Marino.
    The Decline and Fall followed.
     
  6. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Fairly simple for me, coming off of the AFCE title in 08:

    -Pennington's career effectively ended in 09

    -bad FA signings (Wilson, Grove, Smiley)

    -Ronnie and Ricky fell off of the cliff at the same time

    -Sparano and Ireland collectively lost their balls at the same time.

    Recall that in 08 they were willing to change guys out who did not perform, and give ANYONE a chance to be a starter, by 2011, that is all gone.

    However, unlike the last collapse there is talent on the roster, a high draft pick in the wings, and we are well under the cap, whomever is the HC in 2012, will pretty much determine if we are a joke of a franchise, or if we are primed for a massive turnaround, in the past when this happened Ownership took the safe choice.

    And here we are.
     
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  7. PigMuffin

    PigMuffin New Member

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    I had that same bruise brothers poster when I was a kid. Lol. Along with the super duper one with mark duper in a superman outfit and the killer bees poster when the defensive players were dressed as bees. Lol. Good times
     
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  8. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Fun times, and there is the problem last 10 yrs the team has paid off fans..twice...05 and 08, otherwise it has been bleak to be dolphins fan.
     
  9. Conuficus

    Conuficus Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Well away from here
    Maybe its me, but whenever you get the 1st pick in the draft you need to hit that selection. With that in mind I cannot say that the selection of Jake Long is the tipping point as to where it all went wrong. Jake Long is one hell of a player and one of the best at his position.
     
  10. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    The day I opened another retrospective hindsight thread.
     
  11. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Well, I can see that case being made if the argument is:

    "..this set the tone for being to risk adverse in the draft, a Qb at #1 overall is your marquee player for a decade, you can win without an all pro left tackle but not a Qb..."

    There have been two indicators of failure for the current regime:

    -lack of balls
    -being to clever by half to try and make up for the lack of guts

    They move away from top talent in favor of safer picks, Jake Long was the first cough on the road to pneumona.
     
  12. gamblerx

    gamblerx New Member

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    I think the root of all problems to that lead to this state is when Jimmie Johnson didn't trade Dan Marino. I know, it sounds blasphemous. Then everything just snowballed from there.
     
  13. gilv13

    gilv13 Well-Known Member

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    When we passed on Drew Brees to sign Culpepper.
     
  14. gamblerx

    gamblerx New Member

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    When we drafted Jamar Fletcher over Drew Brees and Reggie Wayne.
     
  15. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    I think that was just a symptom, for a couple of reasons, Coaches in Miami NEVER take risks, and when they do, they usually do not payoff.

    Here has been the thinking:

    "Oh, player X with a high value resource? RISKY, go with player Y, does not have the upside but not as RISKY"

    If one thinks about it, the largest risk ANY HC outside of Shula has been willing to take on a QB has ALWAYS been a 2nd rd pick..at most, every regime since Wanny has paid exactly that for a Qb, no huge FA contract, no "move up in the draft and take a Qb", just a #2 pick.

    Think about this:

    "Coach Sparano, your job is on the line who are you adding to the offense"

    "Reggie Bush, Marc Colombo and Matt Moore, and we took a Center at #15, we are letting it all hang out baby!"
     
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  16. Conuficus

    Conuficus Premium Member Luxury Box

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    What would you rather have; a chance to draft Matt Ryan the best prospect at his position in in 2008, or a chance to draft Andrew Luck?

    And with regards to your statement that you win without a tackle, how are we doing with Marc Columbo? He isn't much of a tackle and has had a serious impact on the level at which this offense operates - there's no question about it. Don't ever mistake the fact that after Mark Dixon we didn't have anyone even remotely qualified to play the position aside from the year we tried Carey there. If we pass on Jake there, its highly likely we still have next to nothing at left tackle to protect Ryan or whoever else it may have been. If a right tackle's futility can affect an offense, imagine what a left tackle can do considering its the QB's blindside. Toss in the track record of this regime drafting offensive linemen outside of the first round and it could be downright scary along the offensive line without Jake.
    .
    It wouldn't matter who we had at QB, he'd have a better than average chance to be too screwed up to still be worth anything.
     
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  17. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Ryan, hands down, he's proven his worth, this with swinging gate Sam Baker at LT.


    Hell, could have signed Matt Light for cheap, stuck him at RT, call it done, bad GMing later on does not excuse poor decision making earlier.

    Care to detail the number of "elite LT's" who have won SB's recently?

    How many TD's do they score?
     
  18. Conuficus

    Conuficus Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Yes, because tackles don't score touchdowns, they don't help win games, or superbowls. Nor do too many DE's either, but you certainly wouldn't mind having one. The notion that a player is less valuable because they don't score touchdowns is not that sound to me. Matt Ryan is not some all world quarterback. He isn't in the top 5 at his position I don't imagine. Jake Long for my money is.

    Yet, if we didn't have one we'd pine for one; in much the same fashion we do our current right tackle situation to be fixed.
     
  19. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    You have the #1 overall, why not, you know, find a guy who makes impact plays?

    Td's, game changing plays, that sort of thing.



    Not so much, with one "all world LT" we are not so good, and the cure for the RT woes is named "Nate Garner" only Sparano won't play him.

    Which is something of a theme this yr, 0-7, no lineup changes due to poor performance, it is like Sparano is subsidizing losing via his tolerance for awfulness.
     
  20. BigDogsHunt

    BigDogsHunt Enough talk...prove it!

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    reminds me of the Eugene McCarthy statement "Roosevelt proved you can be president forever, Truman proved that anyone can be president, Eisenhower proved we didnt need one. Republicans said with Kennedy and Johnson we were better off without one, Nixon killed the Presidency, Ford embalmed it, Carter buried it, and Reagan proved there is life after death."

    Shula = Roosevelt
    JJ = Truman
    Wannstedt = Eisenhower
    Saban & Cameron = Kennedy & Johnson
    Sparano = Nixon
    ? = Ford
    ? = Carter

    Dolphins need their Reagan!

    sadly, its possible we are still waiting on our Ford & Carter!
     
  21. Killerphins

    Killerphins The Finger

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    That original post all over the place.... We lost to the Bills at home in '92 AFC Championship game.
     
  22. dolfan22

    dolfan22 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    Let's hope this season is because he is injured and that hasn't been revealed.
     
  23. Zod

    Zod Ruler of the Universe

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    Where did it all go wrong? Quarterback

    How that is lost at this point is beyond me. This team needs to mortgage it's soul for a quarterback if it must be. Then build around that guy. The days of half-assing that decision are long gone.
     
  24. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Well, that was bad, but at the time not seen as deadly as the team was still good, then what happened is Shula the GM then leaped into the FA market with both feet, and did not do thing to protect the franchise from the Cap Ramifications, that hamstrung JJ.

    Then no one was developed behind Marino, maybe Marino would not have it, but whatever the reason...we wound up with Wanny the GM..then Saban the GM...both particularly poor at their jobs.

    Mueller turned out to be average if one looks back at his time, Soliai and Ginn panned out, Satele has played for yrs, so all in all, not terrible compared to Wanny.

    For all of his flaws, I can say with a straight face that Ireland is a 100% improvement on Wanny/Saban/Mueller.

    I say that because for better or worse, we have 2 starters 30 or over on Defense and a handful over 30 on , his #1 's have panned out (jury is out on Odrick) unlike previous regimes.

    The misses on #2's though, are beginning to stack up.
     
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  25. Killerphins

    Killerphins The Finger

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    Yep 1995.
     
  26. Dolphin1184

    Dolphin1184 Member

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    God I wish Chad Pennington had a more durable arm. He was the best QB we had for a long time.
     
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  27. Coral Reefer

    Coral Reefer Premium Member

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    Our problems started a LONG time ago.

    Our problems started when Shula was given complete personnel power with no GM to at least advise him.
    Our drafts started down hill right then along with our roster management. We wasted a HOF QB's career because of that.

    The biggest hit our organization took was the Dave Wannstedt plague.

    You can trace the entire fall of the organization into obscurity right back to this blithering idiot and his dismantling of any talent the franchise had.

    It's been a very slow climb out of that hole. Those that came after him have not done enough to rebuild the franchise but the initial pillaging came directly as a result of Wanny.

    The most recent mistake that has kept this franchise in the hole was the choice of Culpepper over Brees. EPIC mistake. THis franchise would be in a completely different position right now had the correct choice been made.
     
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  28. Killerphins

    Killerphins The Finger

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    It's the Marino hangover folks.
    Us old guys never woke up from it. :shifty:
     
  29. Coral Reefer

    Coral Reefer Premium Member

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    I've thought about the Marino thing quite a bit.
    I'm really beginning to believe we have our own very real version of the curse of the Bambino on our hands.
     
  30. Phyl

    Phyl New Member

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    When we decided a mediocre offense and a good defense that would have to bail us out was a valid strategy for a football team. That started with the JJ era. Bad offenses wear down good defenses as the year goes along and that's why we were good in the first half of the season and sucked so bad in the second half of the season in the late 90s/early 00s era.
     
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  31. Shula did not retire, he was fired.
     
  32. dsteve

    dsteve Banned

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    All you people that think matt ryan would save our franchise are ******ed. he's average in atlanta. he has roddy white, gonzo and turner. Can you imagine how bad he'd be here with nothing? our best offensive player is a rookie running back that replaced someone who was better than him in ronnie brown. ronnie brown sucked last year because he was running behind a horrible o line. Hell, thomas and bush are stunted in what they can do because the o line is so bad/ (and bush is being used wrong on top of sucking dick, see sproles in bushs old role in NO)

    i honestly hope we get the chance to draft luck so all you idiots shut up. You win games based on your D and O lines. anyone that knows football knows that fact. taking a tackle 1 overall is a lot safer AND smarter for our franchise at the time. Look how the pats win. best o line in recent history. brady never hits the ground, in fact real time games look like passing drills in practice. look at how the giants beat the pats in the super bowl...amazing pass rush because guess what? d line and O line determines who wins games. granted you can't have a complete dud at qb like a grossman but henne is far from a dud. if we let him go to another team in a better situation with a decent coach, he's gonna be decent.

    i bet the bears wish they had jake long...ask cutler. I bet pitt wishes they had long...ask rapelessburger after the last ravens game...hell the SD game too. Two pro bowl level quarterbacks, light years beyond matt ryan, get ****ed up because they have no o line.

    Where did it start to go wrong? We traded down for john avery, passing on randy moss, a HOF.

    We sold the farm for ricky williams then wadsofcock ran him into the ground, he went and got high.

    We passed on a qb (bress a HOF) an all pro LT (matt light) a WR (chad johnson, pro bowler and reggie wayne, a HOF) for a DB that lasted what? two seasons before we figured out how ****ty he was?

    We took jason allen over cromartie, nick mangold (C), and various other players with in ten picks that were far better.

    ted ginn jr and his family over patrick willis, revis, beason...**** atleast we didnt take brady quinn that im sure all you idiots were nutting for.

    hell id venture to say the problem is with our first round draft picks...wether we keep or trade em. people laugh at the raiders and lions but honestly, the worst first round draft picks in the last 15 years in the first round belongs to us.
     
  33. dsteve

    dsteve Banned

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    lets look at our collection of first rounders.

    1. pouncey, seems like he might be good but we had a center...we traded him to the raiders to sign their cast away who we later cut. fail.

    2. Jared odrick, injured rookie season. sucks this season. doesnt start. fail

    3. Vontae davis, under performing and often injured. shows some promise. TBD

    4. Jake long, top 3 at his pos. best player on our team. win

    5. ted ginn. major fail.

    6. jason allen, fail.

    7. Ronnie brown, a great talent that we let go because suck. think wes welker but he hasnt found his place away from us yet. not a draft fail but a nice GM fail afterwards. signed reggie bush instead? wasted a second round pick on a RB when we need a S, T, WR etc....

    8. Verno carey, a solid career i guess. overrated and better players at his pos went later. cant fault the pick really a t 19.

    9. 2003, no pick. ricky williams trade, fail because we wasted his career.

    10. see 9, no second either.

    11. jamar fletcher, fail.

    12. no pick again, did i get the trades mixed up? 2000

    13. no pick see 12

    14. john avery, the XFL mvp. fail

    15. yatil green, a homer UM pick by jimmy. didnt play a game. fail

    Then you start hitting a better clip of decent players. marino, webb, vincent, webb, bowens, mcduffie (late first) and gardner. but if you look back we didnt even draft serviceable players the last 15 years in the first round. the raiders, lions etc have come away with some studs and we have one, jake long. We ruined the careers of brown and williams (2 first round picks) got an average T in carey and some potential from davis and pouncey.
     
  34. Pandarilla

    Pandarilla Purist Emeritus

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    I thought it was when Killer self immolated himself after the Ginn pick...Hence, the face paint.
     
  35. finfansince72

    finfansince72 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Its hard to point to decisions made 10 years ago and say thats why we stink now, we've had tons of time to make up for the JJ and Wannestadt mistakes. Saban and Cam as well.

    This current regime is all Parcells fault. He hired "his guys" to implement "his system", but the "guys" and the "system" stink and are out of touch with the current NFL. We should have hired people with the balls to win in the modern league, not a guy looking to pad his retirement account with a job that has no accountability whatsoever. Parcells lost his nuts and his drive and we never should have hired his sackless butt. I blame him for this current regime. Ireland is mediocre at best, Sparano is painfully overmatched week in and week out.

    This regime should have been fired in the offseason, we should have flown out to meet Harbaugh with no coach, no GM and a blank check. We'd be a much better team with a future instead of a team hoping to get the number one overall pick. We can talk for a year about the mistakes made at the Qb position, most recently not drafting Matt Ryan (no one outside of Miami questions whether or not we should have taken him, we should have), but the reality is we hired a con artist in Bill Parcells who sold our owner on his "system", his "guys" when really all he was doing was using our fresh off the cabbage truck owner to pad his retirement before he went back to ESPN.
     
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  36. gafinfan

    gafinfan gunner Club Member

    Got to disagree here padre! If we had taken Matty Ice with that #1 pick he would have been messed up by this staff, just as Chad Henne was. The only saving grace of this whole 4 year period was Penny falling into our laps in 08! The begining and end of all good things for us over this last 4 year period! And why? Because Penny came ready .... Cocked and Loaded with no need to be coached up!

    Hell this staff would screw up Andrew Luck!

    The failure of this franchise is that bringing in Bill Parcells would lead to anything other than an extra few million for Wayne H. is selling this team! Tuna then proceeded to take his millions and slip out the back door leaving us with a Coach who is not as qualified as Cam Cameron, who was a puke BTW, because he can't even coach up the o-line! The one area that he is supposed to be qualified to teach!

    Amen, brother!
     
  37. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Perhaps people are missing my point about Ryan, it is not that he would have been even better in Miami, it is the approach "play it safe" was cemented into place with that pick.

    They took 1 real risk in 4 yrs, trading for Brandon Marshall, White is arguably a risk, but what the White pick showed was ..they may take a risk, but Sparano won't play him, which sort of clues me into one hand not being on board with what the other hand is doing.

    Take 2010 for example, we moved out of the #12 over all for a DE and OLB, we could have had:

    Earl Thomas
    Jason Piere Paul
    Maurkice Pouncey
    Mike Iupati
    Jermaine Gresham
    Dez Bryant

    Instead we have Odrick, who missed his rookie yr, and Misi, who has not developed.
     
  38. finfansince72

    finfansince72 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    So we were right to not take a franchise Qb because of our coaching staff? Thats kind of ridiculous logic. We haven't succeeded because of a franchise Qb but we shouldn't take one because our coaching staff wouldn't know what to do with one? Does that even make sense? Don't buy that nonsense for a minute. Matt Ryan would still be Matt Ryan here, he's a franchise Qb, Atlanta doesn't have Bill Walsh there.
     
  39. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    It's kind of like this to me, say what one will about the Jest, at least they have balls to make moves to improve the team, they do not outsmart themselves as the current regime does, they have fewer draft picks on average, and gosh, they manage to win ballgames.

    The NFL does not reward playing things safe, quite the opposite it can punish a franchise for a long time for playing it safe.
     
  40. finfansince72

    finfansince72 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I agree we've been hesitant to take risks and basically every early round Qb is a big risk. You think its a given that Stafford, Bradford, Ryan, etc were going to be good but it was a huge risk for those franchises. We always draft "value", the only off the wall pick was White and that was just a dumb pick (this coming from someone who really liked him coming out of college). Taking the safe picks, the "can't miss" prospects is nice but it rarely leads to titles. Even the more conservative, methodical front offices like Pitt and Baltimore made big trades or spent high draft picks on risky prospects to win consistently. Our drafts are always "value based", etc but we don't ever go all in, you can't win it all unless at some point you go all in with a prospect or two.
     

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