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Forget Cowher, Gruden, & Fisher As HC's?

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Southbeach, Nov 9, 2011.

  1. Southbeach

    Southbeach Banned

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  2. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Doesn't matter what Jimmy Johnson thinks. Matters what Steve Ross thinks, and I'm pretty sure he wants a Head Coach that has experience.

    You have to consider the source. Jimmy Johnson quit coaching specifically because he had no appetite for hard work anymore. Naturally, he just assumes every coach out there that has been a Head Coach before must be exactly like him. Look at what he says about Bill Belichick. He clearly just doesn't even understand Belichick, because Belichick loves coaching and has no desire to sleep 9 hours a day and spend another 8 hours a day fishing or on a boat sipping drinks somewhere.

    But you take a Jon Gruden, who still wakes up at 3:30am every day and begins watching film by 4am, watching film of players in pro and college, interacting with college coaches and learning some of the new and exciting offenses that are springing up there, etc. He's still doing all this even though he's on television and he doesn't have to work anywhere close to that hard. Is Jimmy Johnson going to understand a Jon Gruden? No. He's not. He's going to assume that if Jon Gruden isn't as burnt out/lazy as he is, then he must be "weird" somehow.
     
  3. MonstBlitz

    MonstBlitz Nobody's Fart Catcher

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    Well, he makes a good point that a coach still has to have the passion to be successful. Some will say these guys can't win because they've already won a superbowl, which I think we've established, is hogwash. BUT if Cowher and Gruden are happy making butt loads of cash doing television gigs and still having a social life, coaching might not be the priority it once was for them.
     
  4. JMHPhin

    JMHPhin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I think what CK stated about Gruden reflects that he has that coaches mentality, that desire. I think Chucky has a passion for football and loves what he does but is a coach and if that opportunity is there and he likes the terms, he is back in. I think he has grown taking a step back, I think he also feels like to himself he has something to prove after the manner in which it ended it TB. JMO
     
  5. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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  6. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    I wonder if Rex snapped the first picture of Belichick. I see some similarities.

    [​IMG]
     
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  7. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Let's assume for a moment that Jon Gruden takes the Miami job this off season. I don't think it would be any coincidence that the year he got back into coaching is the year the Buccaneers finally get to stop paying him to not coach them.
     
  8. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    No you haven't :wink2:
     
  9. finfansince72

    finfansince72 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Cowher and Gruden I like, but Fisher to me is Wannestadt II don't want anything to do with him.
     
  10. Dorfdad

    Dorfdad Well-Known Member

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    I like where this thread is going.
     
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  11. 2k5

    2k5 I miss Ted Ginn Jr.

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    Rex Ryan?
     
  12. CitizenSnips

    CitizenSnips hmm.

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    I see both sides of the argument. On one hand i want a guy with experience.

    On the the other hand, id kill for mike tomlin to be our coach. The steelers have one the best HC in the game IMO and hes probably going to be their coach for at least another 10-15 years. If not 20+, but i think that depends on him more than anything else.
     
  13. Aquafin

    Aquafin New Member

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    Wait a minuet this advice comes from a former head coach who has Billicheck on his house boat giving coachinfg pointers to our arch rivials . what is wrong with this picture ? The last thing I want is anymore advice from a coach who told everyone we are going to run, run, run and punt . i say hell no
     
  14. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    I like Fisher, to me he is the only one whose fire has not burned out sitting in a studio chuckling it up.

    What I really like about his resume is he has won with Qb's whose skills as passers never really blossomed, that is like driving in the Indy 500 with a tire that is low on air pressure.
     
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  15. Larryfinfan

    Larryfinfan 17-0...Priceless Club Member

    Forget nothing....who cares what JJ, the quitter says about coaching...


    Anyway, here's the thing and unless this is all a big ruse that Ross has spun up, all the media and insider reports are that Ross wants an established former HC to run things for him. Gruden, Cowher and Fisher are arguably the biggest fish out there right now. So to 'forget' about one of or any of those three is off base, at least as far as we know right now. Once the real search begins, we can speculate about which type of coach he wants or whatever. There are merits to both type of coaches. The thing is, this organization...not the football side of things, but the rest of the organization has a lot of repair work to do to get back into the good graces of both the media and fanbase and just as importantly the ability to woo talented players here. That's what an established guy like one of those three can bring us. Ross sees this and despite other rumors, is smart enough to figure out what the organization needs as well. He may go either way with a coach, but based on the info that is out there now, he'd rather go with a name brand guy...
     
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  16. MonstBlitz

    MonstBlitz Nobody's Fart Catcher

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    Unless you are prepared to offer actual evidence as to causation aside from more fallacies, please don't dig this up again.
     
  17. Southbeach

    Southbeach Banned

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    I have to think Ross will go with a name HC if at all possible. The article does make a good point in naming Balt, SF, Pitt, TB, Atlanta, and Carolina as teams going in the right direction with first time HC's. Who have been the re-cycled HC's recently with success? I'm drawing blanks.
     
  18. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I guess I'm just having trouble with the idea that getting a proven coach is a bad thing.

    You know, Jon Gruden gets criticized for having won a Super Bowl in Tampa with Tony Dungy's defense and Tony Dungy's players, but if it weren't for Jon Gruden's coaching then the coach that would have won that year would have been Bill Callahan, winning it all with Jon Gruden's offense and Jon Gruden's players. What you had there was the classic Bum Phillips quote about Don Shula, "[He] can take his'n and beat your'n, or he can take your'n and beat his'n." And people forget that before he even got traded to Tampa Bay, he took his Raiders to the AFC Championship and got hosed on account of the tuck rule. Otherwise that 2001 season would have ended with a Oakland-St. Louis matchup and who knows how that would have ended.

    Bill Cowher is responsible for establishing a culture in Pittsburgh that continues on to this day. He gets criticized for trying a long time to win with defense and a running attack but he had sh-tty quarterbacks, what was he supposed to do? He got a good QB and learned his lesson in time to win a Super Bowl. When you stick a legit QB with Cowher, he has a ridiculous winning record.

    I think Jeff Fisher has had a lot of the same issues in Tennessee with the QB position. But when he had Steve McNair he came what, a yard short of winning the Super Bowl?

    I think we'd be lucky to get coaches like that. If you take some "young and hungry" assistant that has no experience, sure he could be the next Mike McCarthy. He could also be the next Cam Cameron.
     
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  19. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    And the other thing that bothers me is not only do we have a groundswell of support for a totally inexperienced Head Coach, but that totally inexperienced Head Coach HAS to be an offensive guy. I don't know that I've seen a single poster suggest in all earnestness that, let's say, Rob Ryan should be given the job. Or Chuck Pagano. At best they get sort of a mention but that's it.
     
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  20. MonstBlitz

    MonstBlitz Nobody's Fart Catcher

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    Valid points, all the way around. Of the 3, I have the hardest time picturing Gruden being unsuccessful with a talented young QB. I give him the slight nod over Bill Cowher. I think being the youngest also means he is probably the hungriest of the 3.
     
  21. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I don't see what lesson he learned given that the year he won the Super Bowl the Steelers rushed 549 times and threw the ball 379 times. It's not like their playoff run was fueled by passing, either.
     
  22. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    He's also the guy who has never developed a young quarterback.
     
  23. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    The question with Gruden quickly becomes though, how does he fill out his defensive staff? Does he know enough about it to know who to hire? He had it kind of easy in Tampa with Monte Kiffin always running the defense there. And if Gruden insists on final say authority on personnel, will he keep underinvesting in the defense the way he was accused at times in Tampa?

    There's an argument to be had that with Bill Cowher, at least you always know there's going to be a defensive killer mentality in place that can complement the work of whatever (hopefully) elite quarterback you get to man your offense. That was the idea in Indianapolis when they grabbed Tony Dungy. Peyton Manning would always take care of the offense and Tony Dungy could install a good enough defense to win. Now that they have an offensive guy at Head Coach and they have to leave the defense in the hands of someone like Larry Coyer...it's all falling apart.

    Hell, when Jon Gruden was traded for by the Buccaneers, that was their mindset, him being yin to Monte Kiffin's yang...providing an offense to complement what was already an established, elite defense. Same idea the Ravens had when they grabbed Brian Billick to be the Head Coach there. You look at the winning formula in New England, isn't that the same? The defensive guru Belichick complementing Tom Brady's offense?

    If the two biggest and most important personalities on your team are your Head Coach and your (hopefully elite) Quarterback, doesn't it make a kind of sense to make sure that one of them can cover one side of the ball and the other can cover the other side?

    Don't get me wrong, I'm a Jon Gruden fan. But a big part of the Gruden thing for me is an assumption that he could bring Jim Leavitt over to be his Monte Kiffin, and I respect Leavitt as a passionate, defensive-minded coach.

    And I'm not saying there's only one way to skin the cat. Obviously the marriage of Sean Payton with Drew Brees is offense on offense, and the marriage between Mike McCarthy and Aaron Rodgers is also offense on offense.

    I'm just saying that there are a lot of merits to going with either guy, and with either of them the most important questions still become who you surround them with.
     
  24. Southbeach

    Southbeach Banned

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    I don't know how much that really matters CK. If you look at Pitt, Balt, SF, and TB, they have not been changed to an explosive O with the first time coaches.

    The only recycled HC I can think of, in having success, is Chan Gailey in Buff. All the other up & comers seem to have gone with new guys.
     
  25. Larry Little

    Larry Little Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I'd be inclined to step away from coaches who already have a Superbowl victory, and who have a cushy TV job. Now... CK... I would probably make an exception for Gruden, who I think has an undeniable passion for the game. I think that counts for a lot. He wouldn't be my first choice, but I wouldn't be upset if we wind up with him.

    Now, when it comes to hiring 'young, hungry' coordinators as NFL head coaches, I think you're taking an awful lot of risk. Take Chudzinski, who JJ is (and a lot of people here are) high on. Chud has exactly 2 years experience in the NFL as a coordinator. The rest of his NFL experience is a few years as a TEs coach. That doesn't tell me he cannot handle an NFL head coaching job, but I will tell you that he'd really, really, really have to wow me in an interview for me to even consider him. You know, for every successful coordinator-to-head-coach story in the NFL, there are 10 utter failures. The only way I'd hire an inexperienced coordinator as my new head coach is if he were someone who I was very familiar with... as in 'in-house'. Otherwise, I wouldn't take the risk... especially in a year with so many proven NFL head coaches available.

    Turning over your organization to one guy is a huge decision. I cannot over-emphasize that.

    Now, all of that said... my #1 guy is still Jeff Fisher. If we don't get him, I feel we might really regret it. But, that's just my opinion.
     
  26. Southbeach

    Southbeach Banned

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    10 failures to one success in coordinators to head coaches?
     
  27. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    At this moment, perhaps. But Tony Dungy was a 2nd time coach. Bill Belichick is a 2nd time coach. Tom Coughlin is a 2nd time coach.

    The pool of coaches that are Head Coach somewhere, and then become Head Coach somewhere else...is pretty small. If you think about it, most of the time when you leave your first Head Coach job, it's not necessarily because you did well. Most of the time it's the opposite, which means you probably aren't going to get another chance as this league seems all about the new blood. Chan Gailey, Bill Belichick, Norv Turner, John Fox, Tom Coughlin, Mike Shanahan and Pete Carroll are the recycled coaches currently active. That means 2nd timers are outnumbered 25 to 7. Those 2nd timers represent 22% of teams, and lo and behold they account for about 22% of the wins in the current standings.

    Yet despite the 2nd timers always being severely outnumbered at any given moment by the 1st timers, look at the last 40 Super Bowl participants. 17 of the last 40 Conference Champions have been coached by guys that were coaching their 2nd or 3rd team. Despite 2nd hand coaches representing only at most about 1 out of 4 NFL teams any given year, they represent nearly half of the Conference Champions.

    Mike McCarthy // Mike Tomlin - 1st timer // 1st timer
    Sean Payton // Tony Dungy - 1st timer // 2nd timer
    Mike Tomlin // Ken Whisenhunt - 1st timer // 1st timer
    Tom Coughlin // Bill Belichick - 2nd timer // 2nd timer
    Tony Dungy // Lovie Smith - 2nd timer .// 1st timer
    Bill Cowher // Mike Holmgren - 1st timer // 2nd timer
    Bill Belichick // Andy Reid - 2nd timer // 1st timer
    Bill Belichik // John Fox - 2nd timer // 1st timer
    Jon Gruden // Bill Callahan - 2nd timer // 1st timer
    Bill Belichick // Mike Martz - 2nd timer // 1st timer
    Brian Billick // Jim Fassel - 1st timer // 1st timer
    Dick Vermeil // Jeff Fisher - 2nd timer // 1st timer
    Mike Shanahan // Dan Reeves - 2nd timer // 2nd timer
    Mike Shanahan // Mike Holmgren - 2nd timer // 1st timer
    Mike Holmgren // Bill Parcells - 1st timer // 2nd timer
    Barry Switzer // Bill Cowher - 1st timer // 1st timer
    George Seifert // Bobby Ross - 1st timer // 1st timer
    Jimmy Johnson // Marv Levy - 1st timer // 2nd timer
    Jimmy Johnson // Marv Levy - 1st timer // 2nd timer
    Joe Gibbs // Marv Levy - 1st timer // 2nd timer

    You definitely have success stories amongst 2nd hand coaches. Marv Levy was the coach of Kansas City, went to the Bills and brough them to 4 Super Bowls. Don Shula was the coach of the Baltimore Colts, came to Miami and coached us to 3 Super Bowl wins and 2 more appearances. Dick Vermeil coached in a Super Bowl with the Eagles, came back and coached in another one with the Rams (this time he won it). And then he came back a third time and assembled a 44-36 record with the Chiefs, had one of the most exciting offenses in the league over the 5 year span. Bill Parcells had success coaching his 2nd team in New England, and his 3rd team in New York, and even some success coaching his 4th team in Dallas. Mike Shanahan was a 2nd hand guy when he won two Super Bowls in Denver. Tony Dungy had a lot of success with his 2nd team in Indianapolis. Tom Coughlin was very successful in Jacksonville, won a Super Bowl in New York and always has his team winning.

    Mike Holmgren was a successful coach with the Green Bay Packers, came to Seattle and took a franchise that had gone 68-92 over the previous 10 years, with zero playoff appearances, and he took them to the playoffs his very first year there...first time that franchise had seen the playoffs in 11 years. He went 86-74, brought them to the playoffs 6 out of 10 years, including 5 years in a row from 2003 to 2007, and even brought them to a Super Bowl. Did he lose the Super Bowl because he'd been there twice before? Hardly. I think he'd tell you he lost in large part due to some questionable officiating.

    I just continue to be baffled...given the success that proven guys have had coaching their 2nd or 3rd teams...that there are so many people totally turned off by the idea of hiring any one of three proven guys that are widely considered to be good Head Coaches.
     
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  28. Southbeach

    Southbeach Banned

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    I'm wondering what the new breed of player has to do with the re-tread coaches. I look at Tuna and Shanahan doing little, and question if former established coaches have let the new game and players pass them by.
     
  29. Jaj

    Jaj Registered

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    Fisher might come out much stronger a second time around. He had quite a bit of success in Tennessee, building good defenses out of nowhere without exceptional talent. He adjusted to his personnel making Vince Young somewhat successful, getting the most out of Chris Johnson. Not a bad choice, except for the high penalties. That's one of the few things I like about Sparano.
     
  30. Vendigo

    Vendigo German Gigolo Club Member

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    They didn't win the Superbowl again, dummy. Jeez, some people will never learn!!!!!!1111eleven.
     
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  31. KB21

    KB21 Almost Never Wrong Club Member

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    The thing with Jeff Fisher is that he may very well be a very overrated head coach. He had only 6 winning seasons in 17 years as a head coach. In 5 of his last 7 years, his teams had 5 game losing streaks during the season. Basically, Fisher is a guy that got hot with some 11-13 win seasons during McNair's peak years, but outside of that, he's essentially a sub .500 to .500 head coach.

    With Bill Cowher and Jon Gruden, I think you have to look at the lay off and not just consider them established head coaches at this point. Dick Vermeil had a several year layoff. He comes back to coach the Rams and coaches them for 3 years before he decides to take a year off. He then comes back and coaches KC for 5 years before retiring. Jimmy Johnson had a 2 year layoff between Dallas and Miami. He comes to Miami, energizes the fan base, and after three years, he has to be talked out of retiring. Talking him out of retirement is what brought Dave Wannstedt to Miami. Joe Gibbs has a layoff, comes back to the Redskins and coaches only 4 years. Bill Parcells was notorious for taking 2-3 years off before getting the itch to coach again, only to coach for 3-4 years after coming back.

    This is an issue when talking to Cowher and Gruden. Personaly, I think it is more of an issue with Cowher than Gruden, since Cowher last coached in 2006. However, both have the comfort of a cushy job that pays them well. Do they really want to get back to the day to day grind of being not only an NFL head coach, but an NFL head coach that has final say on personnel decisions?
     
  32. KB21

    KB21 Almost Never Wrong Club Member

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    You know, Mike Tomlin only had one year experience as a defensive coordinator in the NFL, and Rob Chudzinski has a history as a top offensive coordinator at the college level. This is actually Chud's third year as a coordinator in the NFL, and he's been in the league since 2004 I believe. Looking back, there were reports that Mike Tomlin had the best interview of the candidates Miami looked at in 2007, but they decided to go with Cam Cameron, who had years of experience in the NFL as an offensive coordinator. When Ken Whisenhunt got the Arizona job, he had only been a coordinator for 3 years.
     
  33. KB21

    KB21 Almost Never Wrong Club Member

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    First time head coaches since 2006:

    Miami Dolphins - Cam Cameron, Tony Sparano
    New York Jets - Eric Mangini, Rex Ryan
    Pittsburgh Steelers - Mike Tomlin
    Baltimore Ravens - John Harbaugh
    Cleveland Browns - Pat Shurmur
    Tennessee Titans - Mike Munchak
    Indianapolis Colts - Jim Caldwell
    Houston Texans - Gary Kubiak
    Oakland Raiders - Lane Kiffin, Tom Cable, Hue Jackson
    Kansas City Chiefs - Todd Haley
    Denver Broncos - Josh McDaniels
    Dallas Cowboys - Jason Garrett
    Washington Redskins - Jim Zorn
    Detroit Lions - Rod Marinelli, Jim Schwartz
    Minnesota Vikings - Brad Childress, Leslie Frazier
    Green Bay Packers - Mike McCarthy
    Atlanta Falcons - Bobby Petrino, Mike Smith
    New Orleans Saints - Sean Payton
    Tampa Bay Buccaneers - Raheem Morris
    Carolina Panthers - Ron Rivera
    San Francisco 49ers - Mike Singletary, Jim Harbaugh
    Arizona Cardinals - Ken Whisenhunt
    St. Louis Rams - Scott Linehan, Steve Spagnuolo

    Former head coaches who were hired during the same time span:

    Buffalo Bills -Dick Jauron, Chan Gailey
    Cleveland Browns - Eric Mangini
    Oakland Raiders - Art Shell
    San Diego Chargers - Norv Turner
    Kansas City Chiefs - Herman Edwards
    Dallas Cowboys - Wade Phillips
    Washington Redskins - Mike Shanahan
    Seattle Seahawks - Jim Mora Jr.
     
  34. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    Jimmy johnson is spot on that a GM is more important than a coach. If we don't fix the gm position it won't matter who coaches us
     
  35. Jaj

    Jaj Registered

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    Andy Reid anyone with Steve Spags as DC?
     
  36. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    Unless YOU are prepared to give the name of the man who has won the Super Bowl as Head Coach of two different teams, then you've established nothing. :wink2:

    My wager still stands if you care to take it. Nappy did. :up:
     
  37. Jaj

    Jaj Registered

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    Do I have to disprove this again?

    How many coaches have won a SB and gotten back to try again with another team? Then take that with the difficulty of actually winning a SB. There is no imaginary roof and some coach will do it and then WOW OH **** HE DID IT! The Magic won a game 7 in Boston. NO Way that's IMpossible?!!@# We have a black President, yes we have a Black President.
    Two black coaches in the Superbowl? Please...

    It's all random facts that have absolutely nothing to do with anything. This isn't the supernatural. What scientific evidence other than misconstrued previous history do you have to support that absurd notion?

    Can you argue Cowher won't have the fire to do it? Yes that can be argued.

    Can you argue Gruden would rather be in the press box and will quit? Yes you can do that.
     
  38. KB21

    KB21 Almost Never Wrong Club Member

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    Dang! Obama is black? All I see is an empty suit.
     
  39. Larry Little

    Larry Little Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Actually... yeah. I think the definition of success/failure might have something to do with it, but, most coaches do fail. Especially 1st time head coaches who were former coordinators. You look at guys like Sparano and Cam Cameron here in Miami. Look at Mangini and Crennel, who were from, arguably, the 'best' NFL coaching tree in the league at the time. Those guys failed, and failed miserably. There's a very long list of former 'great' coordinators who fell flat as head coaches. I just don't think it's as simple as 'this guy ran a great defense under so-and-so, so he's going to be a great head coach'.

    There's a lot of evidence to back me up on that.
     
  40. sloppyjoer

    sloppyjoer New Member

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    Man, I usually just browse thru the forums and add in where I can, and really not ruffle any feathers. I am sorry, but I have to disagree with some of this. No disrespect.

    Tomlin inherited that team. Sure, some good choices, some great calls, and yes, he will be there for quite some time as a young HC. But, put that guy in, let's say the Rams, he's done like dinner in 3 years tops.

    Everything was already built around him, everything in place. All the dude has had to do is maintain. Once they start losing aging players is where we will see the real Tomlin in his decisions. Sorry, but that is NOT his team.
     

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