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Phins Coaches vs QB's- Credit & Blame?

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Southbeach, Nov 9, 2011.

  1. Southbeach

    Southbeach Banned

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    Don Shula does not belong on this thread, and JJ had Marino, although on his downside, for most of his four years going to the playoffs (2-3 record) in three of them. Le's start with the tun of the century.

    2000-2004- Wanny had Jay Fielder, Damon Huard, Ray Lucas, Brian Griese, AJ Feeley, and a bit of Sage. 2000- playoffs, 1-1, 2001- playoffs, 0-1, 2002- blew an 11 point 4th quarter lead to Pats in last game, lost tie breaker to Jets and no playoffs, 2003- 10-6 but, no playoffs, 2004- Ricky quits, 0-6 start, Wanny leaves after 1-8, and Bates finishes a 4-12 season.

    2005-2006- Saban had Gus Frerotte, Sage, DC, and Joey Harrington. 2005- 9-7 with hope, 2006- SI Super Bowl prediction, followed by a 6-10 disaster.

    2007- Cam had Trent Green, Cleo Lemon, and Beck. 2007- 1-15 with a little luck to get a win.

    2008-2011- Sparano had Penny, Henne, and Moore. 2008- Playoffs and the biggest turnaround in NFL history. 2009/2010- Disappointing 7-9 seasons. 2011- Another disaster.

    Going back, over the past 10+ years, who gets the credit for some success, and the blame for many a failure? Is it the coaches or the QB's?
     
  2. BlameItOnTheHenne

    BlameItOnTheHenne Taking a poop

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    Davie

    Excuse me while I go cry myself to sleep.
     
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  3. Southbeach

    Southbeach Banned

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    That was the game when fans started calling for Wanny to be fired.
     
  4. NorFlaFin

    NorFlaFin Active Member

    Piss poor decision about the most important position on a football team.

    No anything against the various scrubs, they lived out a dream facilitated by an incompetent coaching staff.


    A Good coach would never sign those scrubs
     
  5. Desides

    Desides Well-Known Member

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    All of the above, plus the personnel department, plus the owner get the blame for the utter disasters you listed.
     
  6. ExplosionsInDaSky

    ExplosionsInDaSky Well-Known Member

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    To answer the question it's both. The regime had many opportunities to get a franchise QB. In 2001 we all watched them pass on Drew Brees and then again with Aaron Rodgers and once again with Matt Ryan. I wanted a QB in the last draft and again we passed on some realistic options like Andy Dalton and Ryan Mallet.
    The QB's we have had here have just plain sucked ***. I guess that would mostly be credited to the regime for selecting them to play here. Either way we aren't getting anywhere until we get a good QB.
     
  7. Southbeach

    Southbeach Banned

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    I guess you could say that Jay and Penny were the "best" QB's we had in the last 11 years, and we were in the playoffs with them. This leads me to believe that it is the QB over any coach who leads to success.
     
  8. firedan

    firedan Well-Known Member

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    The 21st century has not been kind to the phins.
     
  9. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Every QB including Pennington regressed under this current regime until Daboll arrived. I'd say that's on coaching and how QB friendly the offense is/isn't.
     
  10. Ohio Fanatic

    Ohio Fanatic Twuaddle or bust Club Member

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    Not to give Wanny any credit, but that was a different time in NFL, teams like Baltimore and Tampa proved you only needed a mediocre QB if you built a great defense, so he focused on the latter because we were closer to obtaining a dominant defense than a dominate QB
     
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  11. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    you like Daboll TP ?

    I think the things we saw in Henne this year were because of himself, almost looking like a different player at times, there were tangible improvements, but I liked the direction of the offense thru the first few games..

    Matt Moore seems to be improving as much as his skillset allows..

    I guess it won't matter though.
     
  12. brandon27

    brandon27 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    IMO, its largely on the personnel department or the GM. Whoever had made the decision to ignore filling the QB position with a QB that actually has the potential to become a franchise guy, or an elite guy. Whether its the GM, the Coach, the Owners, or all of the above. Theyre to blame, all of them equally.
     
  13. I blame Huizenga for all of it up till when Ross took over. Call it incrediably bad luck if you like but he did nothing that worked enough to consider him a sucessfull owner and I am glad he sold the team.
     
  14. Jaj

    Jaj Registered

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    I blame the coaches for putting players in the wrong positions. When Shula got Marino he didn't sit there and think damn let me run my 1972 Dolphin offense or my Woodley offense. I've seen QBs put into wrong system after system here, it's miserable.
     
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  15. Southbeach

    Southbeach Banned

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    Shula's adaptability to Marino was fascinating. Here we have a HOF coach, with considerations of the "Greatest Of All Time" changing his entire coaching philosophy to suit the talents of Dan Marino. Most coaches do the opposite in believing that they know better.
     
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  16. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    I don't mind him, Deej. I doubt he's near 100% of his desired playbook yet, so all things considered I think he's doing ok for a young coach. I want more, but I'm not completely disappointed either the way I was with ole gray hair. At least Daboll tries to put these guys into better situations to succeed, fits the offense to the personnel rather than personnel to the offense, takes some chances, and at least tries to let them have some fun. Personally I think both he and Henne would've developed a quality growing relationship this year and we would've seen Chad settle in and start to prosper, but that's likely behind us now.

    Do you like him, Deej?
     
  17. Jaj

    Jaj Registered

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    I'll give Daboll this, he's running things in a completely different way for Matt Moore. For all the talk about Colt McCoy in a WCO Daboll very quickly adapted and gave him a solid offense to work with in his rookie year. I can't say that's the case for a guy like Holmgren or those other coaches who had their systems.

    I wouldn't be annoyed if he stuck around. There's more than just numbers to me as far as performance goes.
     
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  18. Southbeach

    Southbeach Banned

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    This is not gonna make me a very popular poster. However, Sparano was under Tuna's blueprint for his first three seasons. This year, he has changed or, is doing what he wants. Daboll was as conservative, if not more so, and he has changed as well.

    I am defending both, to a degree, because this is really their fist season in coaching our team without outside influence. I keep pointing back to the lockout/CBA practice rules affecting our team more than others. I am not alone in this, as players, former players, coaches, and former coaches have said the same.

    All have said that it was going to take 4-6 weeks for players to get back to football shape, and that they will still not have the reserve they are used to. I believe we have seen that with our team, and they are now, and the past few weeks, playing as we knew they could.

    This is not a SFL team. It is one who just need some time, which they did not have.
     
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  19. The G Man

    The G Man Git 'r doooonnne!!!

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    Just makes you wonder if a true franchise QB had been part of the equation anywhere along the line, what might have been? Penny was probably the closest, but was already up there in age and couldn't stay healthy. It really underscores the importance of the position, and why this team so desperately needs to draft a true franchise QB prospect.
     
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  20. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    For me I would like to see more points and first downs achieved by scheme design, not just relying on playmaking ability from his skillset players, I have seen some bad playcalling in the redzone where he is just wanting a play to be made.. Get the play where the man gets open from design and stop relying on athletic ability..

    The TD to Fasano, The sweep 6 to Bush, both those plays happened because of design and execution of that design, not necessarilly playmaking ability..I wanna see more of that..I do think Henne would be having a very successful season if he didn't get hurt, his arm with all the shotgun formation and where I think the offense was going was kind of exciting.

    To me Henne was and has been ascending in play since he entered the league...especially the first 4 games of the season..
     
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  21. Southbeach

    Southbeach Banned

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    We had a couple of shots at QB. We took DC over Brees, which was a medical decision. Who here would have taken Brees when world renown doctors told you they doubted he would recover, and DC was a much safer bet? Brees aid the same in doubting he would be able to play.

    Then there was Ryan. Debatable but, with the then rookie salaries, a tuff choice. Big Jake has not been a bad one.

    Other than that, there were not really the opportunities or availability for our team to bring in a #1 QB.
     
  22. The G Man

    The G Man Git 'r doooonnne!!!

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    SB, IIRC Culpepper came with his own medical issues (knee), and even more baggage. I know at the time, I was livid we didn't get Bress...for a second time. Which, goes to my other point. This franchise has had many opportunities to get a franchise QB, and squandered them all. Brees (twice), Rodgers, Ryan all come to mind quickly. But, I'm sure there have been others. Ultimately, I think this franchise had to bottom out at the QB position to realize the importance of the position. More then ever, I have some faith we will do what is necessary to land a franchise QB in the upcoming off-season.

    JMHO.
     
  23. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    I disagree that there were all that many chances to get a franchise QB and further that it's irrelevant b/c it happened across different regimes, different coaches and even different owners.
     
  24. PhinsRock

    PhinsRock Premium Member Luxury Box

    We need a REAL bonafide, experienced QB Coach, one the has experience developing QB's. As opposed to what's-his-name who never coached a QB in his life. I like what we're seeing out of Daboll, and Nolan has shown his worth, I wouldn't mind if the new HC (Sparano is finished, lets be honest and stick a fork in Tony, he's done) kept Nolan and Daboll. But a QB coach is critical to whoever we're sucking for this draft.
     
  25. Larryfinfan

    Larryfinfan 17-0...Priceless Club Member


    The answer is....YES. The coaches and players get all the blame for our dismal play since 2000....




    Seriously, we are looking at different scenarios here. First Wanny, well he won on the strength of the talent that JJ accrued and his ability to coach up the D. Wanny's and ultimately Saban and Cam's downfall was 5 yrs of bad personnel moves. If I recall weren't there only like 2 or 3 players that Wanny had drafted left on Saban's team ?? That 5 yrs of bad personnel moves left this team so bereft of talent, most UFL teams would have beaten them.

    Saban had the right formula started and began rebuilding his team, but quit part way thru the process. Cam was doomed the day he was hired, being strapped with yet another poor personnel guy as the GM. You don't rebound from that many years of bad moves overnight. The bulk of the team should have been made up of Wanny and Saban talent, but that wasn't even close.

    The Tuna and Ireland had a very difficult time because by and large, they have improved the overall talent level here significantly, but even with that, there have been some 'off the wall' moves that have doomed Sparano. The fans here in SoFl seem to think that a better QB would have made all the difference. I don't see that. As bad as Frerotte was, he had no receivers to depend on and even less talent protecting him on the OL. The same goes for Henne. While the WR corp has improved, it still lacks a speed option. Clay may be that option at some point, but not yet. Marshall has been inconsistent as a Fin. Seriously, we fans ran Chris Chambers out of here because he had untimely drops and inconsistent route running...well, look at Marshall...it's pretty much very similar, although I'd say Marshall is better when he does catch the ball than Chambers, he still 'misses' too much for a supposed to be elite player.

    While it's true we've not had a replacement for Marino and the game has become more of QB driven league, the QB is only one player. Look at our next opponent...who have they had as QBs ?? The jests are feeling the Henne pains thru Sanchez perhaps holding that team up from progressing further, but I'll take the rest of that team over what we've fielded in general the last 10 yrs... It's not one guy, it's the overall acquisition of talent, including the QB. Even Penny, arguably our best option here since Marino couldn't carry the team on his back. Fiedler, for all the grief he took here, won enough games to be considered serviceable, but the talent around him ??

    I say it's the accumulation of the talent that these regimes have acquired or not acquired that have made the difference, although Cam-Cam was certainly not ready for prime time when he was here and there wasn't much of a chance for him to grow into the job.
     
  26. MAFishFan

    MAFishFan Team Tannehill

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    IMO, short of Penny,Frerotte was the most exciting to watch and at the time I was disappointed they didn't bring him back...and truth be told, why can't we talk about Shula? he's not bullet proof...for Marino's entire career he failed to draft a DECENT,not great, DECENT RB to keep teams honest and never drafted a quality defense to stop those thurman thomas screen passes...people give don a pass all the time...i love shula, but let's not look blindly at the fact he had DAN MARINO and only got to the SB 1 time...sorry, but he had his faults as did the others
     

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