I don't agree, I think they would win those games with Orton, thats how bad those teams were. Orton has shown he is capable of putting up 17 points or so in the NFL, he's not that bad. If they ran to protect him and played good defense they would have more than a good shot at winning against us and KC (who I think is the worst team other than Indy right now), Oakland maybe. Tebow is getting overrated by the media and fans who have a mancrush on him. Any other Qb gets murdered for how poorly they've played. I remember winning with terrible Qb play in Jay Fielder, people pointed at the win/lose record and said it didn't matter, then we'd limp into a playoff game or a meaningful game and all of the sudden the passing game matters. I don't know why you keep pointing at this "passing efficiently" catchphrase, Tebow is not passing efficiently by any stretch, in the NFL if you can't complete 50% of your passes and your team can't even pass on a 3rd and 5 because they are afraid you will get sacked or throw a pick you're not efficient. John Fox has no faith in Tebow to be able to complete simple pass plays.....I mean is that really defensible?
I don't agree with the idea that Orton could have just as easily won those games, for example in the two wins Tebow had 150 yds rushing and 3 Td's, Orton cannot do that for the Broncos. I like Tebow's game, do not have a mancrush on him, I see him more or less as a inaccurate Qb who can run the ball effectively and whose team plays hard for him. 50% completions, or even 60%, does not matter, what does matter is producing Td's, to focus on stats over outcomes is to put the cart before the horse imo.
Well with the exception of the Oakland game Denver isn't scoring much thats why I said I think Orton is capable of putting up 14-17 points of offense, I think he is. Scoring is what matters and Denver is scoring about 20 pts a game with Tebow. They were scoring the same if not more with Orton. Their defense and running game wasn't working as well with Orton so you can point to Tebow for an improvement but really its crappy teams and Denver's Defense that is getting it done. Orton played Cincy, Green Bay, Tenn and San Diego he actually beat Cincy, the best win on their schedule so far. I mean lets be objective here. Who would you rather have once your team gets behind? Tebow or a legit NFL passer?
What you're not getting is that the run is more effective b/c Tebow is in there. Most of their running success is happening b/c teams are worried about Tebow running. The easiest example is the zone read plays where most of their running success has come from. Those plays don't work with Orton in there. So your theory that Orton could have won those games if they protected him with the run is irrelevant b/c Tebow is what makes that run work. And passing efficiently has always been defined by YPA, always. You're looking at just the completion percentage, but that's only part of it. It is a fact that the Broncos had a higher YPA than the Chiefs. Therefore the Broncos passed more efficiently than the Chiefs. That has been the formula for success for the last 60 years or so. If you had a QB that threw just 5 passes per game but completed 2 or 3 of them for long TDs, he'd have the highest rating in football. If that was combined with a defense that kept the opponent's YPA below whatever that QB had and they won the turnover battle, then they would win the majority of their games and probably be a SB contender. I'm not saying that Denver is a SB contender, but I am saying that if they were able to pass more efficiently than their opponents and win the TO battle like they did against KC, they would win a ton of games. And that Tebow is a big part of the reason that they were able to do those things.
2 of 8 isn't efficient. I mean KC stunk the joint up so Denver was able to get a win but give Denver's defense a lot more credit than Denver's offense in this one, they held the Chiefs to basically nothing in the passing game. Denver got ONE nice pass, that isn't efficient. I guess playing slightly less poorly than you're opponent will win a lot of games but it goes back to the strength of schedule for me, KC stinks they are literally one of the worst teams in the league right now in all aspects of the game, they are full of bigtime injuries, its not shocking that they lost to Denver with or without Orton. I do think Orton could have won a lot of these games.
8.5 YPA is efficient. Generally anything above 7.00 YPA is considered good. So, 2 of 8 when coupled with 69 yards passing a TD and no INTs is efficient. And Orton won how many games with this same team plus Brandon Lloyd? There really is no reasonable basis for the belief that Orton would have won any of these games beyond being determined to not give Tebow any credit.
I give Tebow credit but I give Orton the benefit of the doubt that he could have beaten these teams, even without Brandon Lloyd. Orton has won ugly games with a good defense and running game before, he's also put up big numbers in games so I do think its entirely possible that he would have won these games. 2 of 8 with a 8.5ypa, 69yds a TD is an efficient QUARTER, not game. That will literally lose about 99% of the time, a Qb has won literally like twice in the last 25 years completing only 2 passes. Winning is what matters right?
But the running game wasn't working with Orton. So it's irrelevant whether he could win with a good running game b/c there's no reason to believe he would have one. The primary reason the running game is working is b/c of Tebow. And you're focusing on the number of passes as if it in anyway matters. I've been studying the passing stats for years and the total number doesn't matter. What matters is the efficiency. Teams have won attempting few passes and many passes. You're acting like there's some bright line rule that says 'complete 2 passes or less and you lose 99% of the time'. That's the fallacy made by people who misunderstand the term "passing league". Points tend to come out of the passing game so you need to pass enough to get enough points to win. If you pass efficiently enough then you don't need as many passes. Tebow passed a minimal amount, but it was incredibly efficient, so it was enough. If you pass enough, efficiently enough you realistically win about 70% of the time. If you do that and win the turnover battle you up that to about 90% of the time. This has been proven over and over. I could have looked at the stats (without seeing the score) and easily guessed who won. You try guessing who won by looking at number of passes thrown and you'll be wrong as often as not.
Ah, 4-1 now, 68 yds rushing, 108 yds passing. Vintage Tebow, over the Jets no less, the Broncos are now serious contenders in the AFCW.
LOL @ the Jest, beautiful win by the Broncos and Tebow! Loved it. Sanchez contributed heavily, he not only threw the pick 6 but he had tons of chances to move the ball and score points. Denver's defense is playing a much bigger role in the victories, everyone gives Tebow all the credit but Denver's defense has really come into its own. John Fox gets a lot of credit as well for finding a plan that wins. Tebow still can't throw, its painful to watch and downright embarrassing at times but maybe the Broncos can keep winning like this. Longterm I don't like it and honestly Tebow just makes it brutal to watch a Broncos game but hey they keep winning more power to them.
Basically, the Broncos offense is successful when Tebow runs and struggles when they go to more of a conventional offense. The media and fans get confused with the labels. They run an option play or zone read play one out of every 7 or 8 plays and now we'll get another week of "experts" saying an option offense isn't sustainable. The final drive worked after the struggles the first 55 minutes b/c they ran a different offense. They ran that one option play where Tebow kept it on 2nd and 2, but the bulk of it was done in a spread, empty formation. That's the same formation that NE and GB consistently run. The only difference was that Tebow ran it more often than Brady or Rodgers do. Going forward, I do think they will struggle b/c they keep trying to run a primarily conventional offense for most of the game. If Denver ran the same offense all game that Denver runs in the last 5 minutes, then Denver would score a lot more. I also heard on the radio this morning that the Jets were in a prevent (as an excuse for why Tebow was successful on the last drive), but that is incorrect as well. The Jets put in an extra DB, the same defense that is used 65% of the time in the NFL, and then blitzed on most of the plays.
Nah, only continuing from where this thread started....prior to that nothing happened...nothing to see here...move along!
Phillip Rivers does not let my projection of being overrated down...He's living up to my expectations just fine...lol...wow, what is that 6 in a row..If I was the gm of that team I would try to sell high on the people who have thought, and continue to think, he is an elite QB..
Its a very risky deal I agree, but like I said, I saw some things there that I didn't like, and this year for me, I have seen that criticism become evident, so Iam gonna sell high... I'll trade him to you right now for your 1st round pick?, do we have a deal?
Yes, I will trade a first round pick for a elite quaterback in his prime. No trade backs though, agreed?
If the chargers want to dump Rivers because Denver's defense was all over him then we should get in line and trade for him. The guy is a franchise Qb that is on a team with a loser coach he'll be fine when they get that team on the right track. Denver's defense is winning games, Tebow is doing enough but he's terrible the Broncos defense gets lost in Tebow mania, Von Miller and the D are coming together under Fox, this team would be a 1 win team without great defensive play.
I believe that in the NFL more games are lost than won. By that I mean that if your QB (most often) doesn't give the ball away, you're probably going to win more than half of the time. And then if he makes some plays then you'll win a few more. I think the critics tend to ignore that Tebow rarely gives the ball away and that he does makes some plays. With QBs, I find that the ratio of negative to positive plays is what differentiates the bad, good and great QBs. You can do it different ways. You could be a Favre or Marino who throws pics but generally makes up for it with tons of TDs or you could be the kind like Phil Simms in his SB year who just made few mistakes and enough plays. Tebow is actually in the middle. Just looking at TD/INT ratio, Tebow's ratio is really good. (I know that those aren't the only plays to be made, 3rd down plays are often nearly as important, but it's an easy ratio to find). Tebow has thrown 8 TD passes and 1 INT along with 3 rushing TDs and 1 lost fumble. That translates to an 11/2 ratio in six games. That ratio would compare pretty favorably to most SB winning QBs during their SB run. (I'm not claiming Denver is SB bound, just giving his production some historical perspective). Further, the zone read plays result in a ton of rushing yards that simply weren't there when Orton was playing. I watched much of the Denver/SD game and just about all of their big run plays came off of those plays. And SD was clearly prepared for it. They played many of those with perfect assignment football. They just couldn't stop them all. In many of those Tebow or McGahee just made plays despite good defense. That style of offense also helps the defense. Denver's defense talked about how they're coming in rested. I think that has to help their pass rushers stay fresh. That alone may be the biggest factor in their defensive turn around. It may be bigger than anythng Fox has done or Tebow's leadership. In the end the question will most likely be whether Tebow can make enough plays, but so far he clearly is.
Tim also had a couple of third down passes that were flat out dropped which could have kept drives alive. Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk
Ofcoarse the D deserves credit but so does Tebow. Sure he has an abysmal completion %, but compared to Orton he has thrown the same number of TDs on nearly the same attempts, yet 7 less INTs....which gives him a higher QBR than Orton. So, while he doesn't have any chance of getting confused with Brady or Peyton we still have to acknowledge the reality that its a lot more than simply the Defense playing well that is causing Denver to go 5-1 with Tebow at the helm.
The defense is the biggest reason, theres no way that the offense Denver runs can succeed when the team gets far behind and the clock becomes an issue. Its been nice to see the wins but Tebow has been awful passing the ball and this type of offense just can't succeed without great defensive play. The Broncos and Fox have turned their defense around, I give Tebow and the running game credit where its due but I don't see the media and fans giving Fox and defense nearly enough credit they have contributed at the very least equally to the wins and everyone is caught up in Tebow mania. Its going to be interesting when Denver drafts a Qb and the fans revolt.....
I'm confused, lol. I thought in that scenario, I was Miami and you were San Diego. Hence, me saying yes to trading a top ten pick to you for Philip Rivers.
Phillip Rivers are you kidding? Do you have any idea how good of a team this would be with Phillip Rivers on it with perhaps one more speed WR. An elite quarterback for one first round pick?
Well in Sparanos defense....he can lose a lead to anyone so Tebow hasn't done anything any number of Qbs around the league have done to Miami.
Lets put it this way, I'am not giving up my first this year for phillip rivers, and if I'am the Chargers GM, I'am looking to move him, especially when there's folks out there that overrate him and I probably could get something very high. but If I'am the Gm, I'am trusting my skills, and getting my own in this draft...
