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8th-grader killed by Texas police had pellet gun

Discussion in 'Lounge' started by unluckyluciano, Jan 4, 2012.

  1. unluckyluciano

    unluckyluciano For My Hero JetsSuck

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    snip

    http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57352546/8th-grader-killed-by-texas-police-had-pellet-gun/

    Thoughts?
     
  2. muscle979

    muscle979 Season Ticket Holder

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    Sounds like suicide by police to me.
     
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  3. Sounds like the police acting irresponsibly to me. Death wish or not.
     
  4. Ronnie Bass

    Ronnie Bass Luxury Box Luxury Box

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    How are you coming to that conclusion based on what was in the article?
     
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  5. Laces Out

    Laces Out Well-Known Member

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    How so? By not recognizing that the pistol was in fact a BB gun? By not using non lethal force? C'mon man, a weapon was being pointed at law enforcement officers, lawful commands were given and not followed so the police reacted within the boundaries of the law.

    I personally tend to agree with the suicide by police that the poster above you mentioned
     
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  6. BlameItOnTheHenne

    BlameItOnTheHenne Taking a poop

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    What are the chances that that kid was repeating the 8th grade?
     
  7. IMO the police overreacted and reacted rashly.
     
  8. Ronnie Bass

    Ronnie Bass Luxury Box Luxury Box

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    Yeah, you pretty much said that already, but you still have yet explained why they did.
     
  9. Sorry did not mean to be coy.

    We are talking about an armed middle school student. Now I will grant you the police have no way of knowing if the gun is real or not. I sympathize with the police in that position. However I think they could of evacuated the school if it wasn't already and isolated that student within a confined area. Then they could of disarmed him through nonlethal force. I think shooting a kid is excessive use of force as a means to disarm him.


    I really do not think the guy who shot that kid should be allowed to carry a gun anymore. He is dangerous.
     
  10. TiP54

    TiP54 Bad Reputation

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    I just graduated from the Police Academy less than a month ago. Obviously we don't know all the details, but if the article is true, and they infaft did give him numerous commands to drop the gun and it was not readily identifiable as a BB gun, they did what they had to do. It's unfortunate that a life of a teenager was lost, but he had plenty of opportunities to drop the gun.
     
  11. TiP54

    TiP54 Bad Reputation

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    It's easier said than done. You don't bring a knife to a gunfight. Attempt use nonlethal weapon vs a potentially lethal weapon? No. That will get you killed.
    Now again, we don't know the details, so I'm speaking under assumption that the article is truthful, and if it is, again, attempting to use non lethal weapon vs a potentially lethal weapon is not smart and is a big safety hazard.
     
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  12. Ronnie Bass

    Ronnie Bass Luxury Box Luxury Box

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    How do you evacuate a whole school on lockdown and keep a crazed gunman subdued at the same time? And how do you know this was even a practical choice?

    You are being quite the armchair cop here.
     
  13. Stitches

    Stitches ThePhin's Biggest Killjoy Luxury Box

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    I say the cops were too lenient. I don't give him multiple chances to drop the weapon. If he doesn't follow directions after the first attempt in a situation like that, then that's his choice to pay for the consequences.
     
  14. Ronnie Bass

    Ronnie Bass Luxury Box Luxury Box

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    I think sometimes people forget that these cops not only have lives of their own but a family and little ones who depend on him, one thing for sure for whatever reason this gunman went down this path his concern was not on anyone's safety. They needed to do what they needed to do, even if sadly he had a pellet gun that would have caused little harm.
     
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  15. I respect what the police are asked to face in the line of duty. I do not envy them and I have the ut most respect and gratitude for what they do. That does not mean they do not make mistakes and that there isn't ones that should not carry guns. Think about this for a moment;

    A cop made the decision to open fire on a kid in a school.

    Why not just evacuate the school and isolate that kid in the building. Call in swat or whoever to tear gas him out, or use rubber bullets or whatever other tools they have in their arsenal and why not try to talk the kid into voluntarily disarming himself with a bullhorn or on the phone from a safe distance.

    I get that the cop felt his life was being threatened and thats why he fired. My response to that is don't be a cop if your not prepared to face that type of situation. The cop should of backed away to a place of safety and called in for help. Shooting that kid was a bad decision. At the very least, they should take his gun away from him.
     
  16. Laces Out

    Laces Out Well-Known Member

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    Dangerous for performing his duties as a law enforcement officer? If it were an adult are you saying the same thing? Or perhaps this kid shot people already, and the officer killed him?
     
  17. Stitches

    Stitches ThePhin's Biggest Killjoy Luxury Box

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    I really doubt the police department had a SWAT team.

    Also, I could certainly be wrong, but I was under the impression any Officer who fired his weapon in the line of duty would need to see a Therapist (Psychologist/Psychiatrist).
     
  18. If it was an adult I would have a completely different opinion.
     
  19. Laces Out

    Laces Out Well-Known Member

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    Tear gas isn't 100% effective and it all depends on the size of the room. There are numerous variables here, and the police acted quickly, because there isn't always time to wait it out. Were there other options? There always are, but you can't Monday Morning QB every choice that is made.
     
  20. Thats my understanding too along with a review board to decide if it was a good shooting or not.
     
  21. When a kid winds up shot to death at the hand of a law enforcement officer I think it is perfectly justifiable to monday morning QB it.
     
  22. Ronnie Bass

    Ronnie Bass Luxury Box Luxury Box

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    You seem to have zero understanding - even so you say you do - what they were probably facing, in their minds they are facing off a unstable armed student with other students already in grave danger, I can't believe calling timeout during a crisis like this to bring in a SWAT team and evacuate students - who could be shot in the process - is even feasible. The gunman had to be handled there at that moment, any actions less of that would put innocent children in harms way.

    I just don't get your thinking at all.
     
  23. Ronnie Bass

    Ronnie Bass Luxury Box Luxury Box

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    But not by you.
     
  24. We just do not view it the same way. I hold police to higher level of accountability then you do. Thats not a cheap shot at you I'm just saying I think they should of pursued nonlethal means of disarming him first.

    Not sure what you mean? If I or any nonlaw enforcement person shot and killed someone I would expect them to stand trial for murder and allow a jury of thier peers decide if the shooting was justified.

    Let me turn the tables on you and I was an armed teacher and I shot that kid dead would you simply say "well its ok cause the kid had a BB gun"?
     
  25. pennphinfan

    pennphinfan Stelin Canez Arcade Scorz

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    Agreed, you can't always just "sneak up on" an armed suspect and judo chop their weapon away from them like they show in the movies. How do you evacuate a school when there is a gunman on the loose inside? Unless he's locked in a broom closet he's likely outside some classrooms- no one in their right mind would tell those kids to walk outside the classroom and attempt to walk past a possible active shooter situation.

    Less lethal weaponry is great when you have the opportunity to use it. This is not always the case. If an officer /entry team is clearing hallways and they turn a corner only to see a gunman pointing a gun directly at their face, they will NOT be drawing a taser. There are so many details we don't know about this situation, and it is unfair to be judge and jury on it without knowing them.

    As far as your 'investigation' hope, worry not, every OIS (officer-involved shooting) or use of force has a mandatory investigation not only by department administration but often also accompanied by an independent investigation by an impartial party.


    This is why law enforcement officers are given specialty training to handle these situations as efficiently and safely as possible. Teachers are trained to teach, not to assess the danger of a situation and the necessity of the use of lethal force. Officers involved in shootings are held accountable to their actions, and are investigated. If for any reason the officer has not acted within the confines of the law and his duties, a criminal trial will be held (see the two officers in Fullerton, CA)

    In any case, it's a tragic situation and in an ideal world all of this could be avoided to begin with. The whole story is sad and it's scary that gunmen in schools are so much more common these days, whatever the outcome.
     
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  26. Ronnie Bass

    Ronnie Bass Luxury Box Luxury Box

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    You hold cops to a unreasonable expectations, mostly because I don't think you have the slightest clue what it's like to be a cop in these situations. Plus you seem to hold a higher regard for the life of this armed student than you do for the innocent ones he was threatening.

    Wut??
     
  27. Laces Out

    Laces Out Well-Known Member

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    Then this should be the end of the discussion because you and the majority of posters ITT will not see eye to eye. Or better yet, let's talk about the OKC woman who shot a robber who was carrying a knife they broke in her house. Does she deserve such scrutiny?
     
  28. muscle979

    muscle979 Season Ticket Holder

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    You watch too much TV.
     
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  29. Miamian

    Miamian Senior Member

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    May the stupid kid RIP.

    Based on what we know, the cops should be exonerated.
     
  30. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    Based on the info in the article, I have to go with the cops on this one. I have never been one to shy away from criticizing cops and have even been accused of being a police basher (I'm sure someone will call me a police apologist now, LOL), but when someone points a gun at you, you have to react with deadly force. It is unreasonable to expect any less from anybody.
     
  31. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    I have no idea if the cop acted correctly or not. None of us do, unless we were there.

    I do not understand however, why this shouldn't be investigated, just in case. Nor do I understand how anyone can feel the cop should be exonerated or crucified without there being an investigation.
     
  32. BlameItOnTheHenne

    BlameItOnTheHenne Taking a poop

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    The kid had a death wish.
     
  33. Ronnie Bass

    Ronnie Bass Luxury Box Luxury Box

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    A 15 year old boy was killed, it most definitely should be looked at why he went wrong that day and what happen. If he was a relative of mine I would expect that.
     
  34. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    The whole thing. The kid, the parents, the school, the cop. All of it.
     
  35. arsenal

    arsenal Sunglasses and advil

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    i agree with the police and this shouldn't even be a topic of discussion...

    our society is becoming so lenient towards everything, this kid was brandishing a gun at cops and not putting it down... if I am a cop i am not gonna let this kid shoot me because I have to worry about how every tom, dick, and harry is going to feel about what happens... thats how cops get killed...

    The fact is, this kid held a gun up to cops, he deserves whatever he got...
     
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  36. USArmyFinFan

    USArmyFinFan Maximum Effort

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    If I remember correctly, police were criticized for taking too long to respond at Columbine several years back, now some want to criticize them for acting to quickly…… We can’t have it both ways people. I feel the police were justified, however an investigation should be conducted to ensure accuracy and possible learn and improve if and when there is a next time.
    I also believe it was a suicide by cop.
     
  37. SICK

    SICK Lounge Moderator

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    So I noticed no one mentioned, or maybe I didn't see it. But this kid was 15 in 8th grade. I was a sophmore/junior at 15 years old. Either this kid is a **** up and has failed multiple times. Or he has a learning disability. Was that ever touched on in the article?
     
  38. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    I would imagine that every shooting is automatically investigated. That's generally the policy in every department. But most every shooting is exonerated, IMO that happens far too often, but in this case I can't fault a cop for defending himself with lethal force when he reasonably believes his life is in danger. According to the article, the gun looked like a real gun, the kid had threatened both other students and had pointed the gun at the cops after repeated requests to put down the gun. Those facts alone make it reasonable for the cops to defend themselves with lethal force.

    And I do not believe it is ever reasonable to expect somebody to defend against lethal force with non-lethal force. That's movie stuff that doesn't work in real life.
     

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