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Your thoughts on fitting our personnel into the SBO scheme

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by mbmonk, Jan 21, 2012.

  1. mbmonk

    mbmonk I have no clue

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    So I was looking to get a general feel of the South Beach Offense, known to the unwashed masses as the West Coast Offense, and I came across an interesting section in the Wikipedia entry

    Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Coast_offense


    RB
    Reggie Bush - A solid run & pass threat and could play the Roger Craig role.
    Daniel Thomas - ??
    Lex Hilliard - ??

    QB
    Matt Moore - ??

    WR
    Marshall - Can catch in traffic and is a good route runner.
    Bess - Same a Marshall. He is very hard to cover in short yardage, seems like this system could benefit him.
    Hartline - ??

    TE
    I don't know the TE's role in this system. In GB they had a very athletic pass catching TE. So I am not sure if Fasano fits that role.
    Fasano - ??
    Clay - ??


    So what are your thoughts on how some existing players fit into the scheme?

    More information on the SBO:
    http://static.espn.go.com/nfl/s/westcoast/history.html
    http://www.westcoastoffense.com/
     
  2. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    I think they are offbase on the size thing, Rice and Taylor and Owens were all larger targets that flourished in the SBO, the eagles went the other way with smaller, quicker, Wr.

    The real key is the Qb has to place the ball above the hips and below the shoulders each time, every time, the idea being the Wr catches the ball in stride, heading down hill.

    Rb's do catch lots of passes, and the Ollinemen are typically more athletic player then the maulers Sparano favored, we will see a shakeup in that unit for sure.

    So:

    -Qb
    -After Marshall all bets are off at Wr
    -Fb, the SBO uses one
    -Te sees a lot of passes coming their way

    Daniel Thomas though, has good hands, why Sparano and Co rarely used the rb's as receivers is one thing that always surprised me, expect to see more of it w/Thomas and Bush.
     
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  3. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    I think the SBO has evolved so much over time that it really depends on the coach. Greg Jennings is a speedy guy who runs deep often while Jordy Nelson is pretty big, mainly in height.

    The real test is if the coach can work with what he has. It's less about system and more about talent these days.

    Not quite sure what system has a fundamental aspect called "Throw that **** high to that big guy named Megatron", but it works.
     
  4. Larryfinfan

    Larryfinfan 17-0...Priceless Club Member

    I have a different opinion of what and how the WCO is orchestrated than Wikipedia...but lets look...

    RB
    Reggie Bush -Not a very good pass threat, never has been. Roger Craig ran thru the middle of the field, again, not Bush's forte. Not nearly as tough as Craig was.
    Daniel Thomas - ?? One cut runner, could do ok in the WCO.
    Lex Hilliard - ?? Not a traditional FB. Will need to be replaced.
    FB - No one really fits that bill on the roster now. More of a traditional FB is needed...

    QB
    Matt Moore - ?? Moore isn't the most accurate QB, but that's one of the areas I dissagree with Wiki...QB throws to where the WR/TE/RB is supposed to be. Accuracy is not foremost in the QB's arsenal. Still, Moore can do ok in this system, but it'll take time. Has just enough mobility to make it work for him.

    WR
    Marshall - Meh--not very disciplined and not a great route runner, does however know how to get open.
    Bess - Agree, could do well. Very good route runner because he's slower than dirt.
    Hartline - ?? Another good route runner, not very fast either, but should do well.
    #4WR- Very important addition needed here. Must be a bit faster than the group we have.

    TE
    I don't know the TE's role in this system. In GB they had a very athletic pass catching TE. So I am not sure if Fasano fits that role.
    Fasano - ?? He's usable, but a bit plodding. Knows how to get open.
    Clay - ?? Has a lot to learn. might be that seam splitting TE that the WCO needs.
    #3 TE - A must. I think GB kept 5 this season. Need to have another pass receiving TE to go with the rest.


    Let me add one thing tho, the WCO as Walsh dreamed it up is not the WCO that we see today. Guys like Holmgren, McCarthy, Reid, Gruden, Mooch, etc all evolved that offense into what we see today. One thing that has changed is the athleticism of the TEs, RBs and WRs compared to what Walsh worked with 30 yrs ago.

    Just my opinion, but more skill set folks are needed and some just won't fit at all...Rebuild is the word here...not retool...
     
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  5. Trowa

    Trowa A world of pain

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    If I say my thoughts are that calling it the SBO is stupid is that gonna hurt someone's feelings?
     
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  6. Frumundah Finnatic

    Frumundah Finnatic U Mad Miami?

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    Dwayne Allen.
     
  7. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    Clay is a fullback
     
  8. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Have to think we will poach some Te's from Green Bay, they have like 5 of them.

    If Clay goes to Fb, we'll need one.
     
  9. Laces Out

    Laces Out Well-Known Member

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    Felt the exact same way when they tried the "Corn Coast Offense". :confused2:
     
  10. mbmonk

    mbmonk I have no clue

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    I meant to say Reggie Bush is a good run & pass catching option. The way I phrased it made it sound like he was a option QB or something.

    No. :)
     
  11. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Eh, I like it, it's fun and I'm a fan of making things your own.
     
  12. mbmonk

    mbmonk I have no clue

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    Clay is marked on the roster as FB/TE. He plays both. I tend to label him more a TE because I normally see him on the line of scrimmage instead of in the backfield. But he could be classified either way.
     
  13. mommabilly

    mommabilly No riders allowed

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    I say Philbin tells Ross. " Give Marshal his bag of money and a bus ticket "

    I can see why Denver got rid of him. Find another receiver and kiss this head case goodbye. He does not listen to the coaches anyway, or team mates or anyone for that matter. I do not care what any of you say or numbers you thow at me, cut this guy and take the hit, the team will be far better off in the long run without him.
     
  14. mommabilly

    mommabilly No riders allowed

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    I agree, love this kid clay catching the ball.
     
  15. Jcouch1021

    Jcouch1021 New Member

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    I'd rather have Marshall then not....
     
  16. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I realize it's not going to catch on, but I hate this "SBO" thing for as much as it's been used.

    Don't worry about what Wikipedia says the WCO does or doesn't use. The offensive trees have pretty widely diverged and blended together from their origins. There's no such thing as a "WCO WR", or a "WCO RB". It's more important to pay attention what the individual offensive coordinator does than what a 20 year old understanding of the origin of the scheme suggests.

    I think the most quickly and obvious thing is that this will be a zone blocking team. Which illustrates what I'm saying about don't pay attention to scheme stereotypes, because the original WCO was all about intricate man-blocking with a bunch of traps and pulls. We're likely to see Vernon Carey not resigned, and probably Richie Incognito released.

    I doubt we're going to see a lot of turnover in our skill positions. Daniel Thomas is from a zone-blocking heavy scheme in college, and is likely more comfortable and better at it. Bush has improved his vision tremendously, and if he's capitalized on that he could do quite well, but it's a change from what he's done. Physically, he fits it quite well.

    I don't see why the wide receivers are going to change. The route tree is pretty varied and not exclusively, or predominantly timing routes. Considering the fact that Brandon Marshall was primarily a slot receiver at times in Denver playing Wes Welker's role in McDaniels offense, I fail to see how it's going to be an issue for him.

    The Packers used a lot of tight ends/fullbacks a variety of ways. Finley was a pretty typical tight end, but they have used a lot of different guys in different ways. Three tight ends excluding Finley saw over 100 snaps this year, and in 2010 they had 3 fullbacks do the same. They used a lot of these players, and used them in a lot of different roles. There's also a fair amount of overlap between tight end and fullback.
     
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  17. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Philbin actually pretty much referred my point in his press conference
     
  18. Trowa

    Trowa A world of pain

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    Someone has unresolved anger issues...
     
  19. Trowa

    Trowa A world of pain

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    On a serious note, I think Philbin hit the nail on the head. It's not about fitting the players you have into a system or getting players who fit into your system, it's about building your offense around what you have. Accentuating the positive things your players can do and hiding the things they can't do. It's refreshing to have a HC who understands that.
     
  20. Jaj

    Jaj Registered

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    Great news as far as the offense goes. That means that we'll probably see a lot of PA next year with short passing and an occasional throw to keep things honest. On the other hand Colombo won't be playing RT ever again for Miami. Jerry will probably there. Incognito at RG, Garner at LG the way things always should have been. If it's truly a zone blocking scheme they want they can go with a large zone blocking group as Cam Cameron did in 2007. They did fine with that and it brought the C out to pull block. They had a mauler at LG and RG. As Philbin said it's taking the players to personnel. Instead of spending years assembling a new cast of players you just have to use what you have to its best ability. Then in the draft you can go and get some playmakers, perhaps Trent Richardson instead of having to worry about X's fit here or there.

    I think the defense will take off as well with that logic. They'll finally be one-gapping that DL full time. Perhaps Dansby will finally be a SLB, lots of things like that.
     
  21. mbmonk

    mbmonk I have no clue

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    Overall I think you make a great point. I think WCO probably speaks more to a general style than a strict regiment. Historically it has been labeled as an offense based on the short pass first and running game second. So the fact that the 49'ers did man blocking versus zone really isn't a big deal.

    But I think overall you make a great point.
     
  22. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    You can find examples of most anything under the title WCO. I don't see the label as all that important or even useful anymore. What is important is that you tailor the system to highlight the strengths and hide the weaknesses of your key players. I also don't expect a ton of change is necessary. I figure we'll add at QB, TE and OL.

    At QB, I expect the priority will be decision making, accuracy, mobility, leadership and pocket presence. Velocity will matter, but all of the top candidates have enough of that. My guess is that Flynn and Tannyhill are the most likely guys. I see RG3 as third just b/c the trade up cost may be too prohibitive for a guy whose decision making skills are difficult to evaluate and who doesnt have great feel in the pocket. But he's superlative in the other categories so he has to be on the list. I also would expect the Dolphins to at least attempt a ridiculous offer for Luck.

    At TE, I think they'll bring in more bodies and that most will be seam threats due to size, speed or receiving ability. Not necessarily high picks here. You might see Clay move to TE full time and the return of a true FB.

    At OL, I expect a focus on balance and mobility. I think you'll see OL that can run rather than lumber. Pouncey is perfect for that but it does not bode well for Incognito, Carey and Columbo.

    This beyond the thread question, but I also expect a focus on pass rushers and S.
     
  23. Pandarilla

    Pandarilla Purist Emeritus

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    I thought our players talents is what makes the mythic SBO by default. You know, tailor your offense to your players and call it SBO.
     
  24. PHINANALYST

    PHINANALYST Well-Known Member

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    actually, i believe that Clay can play a role similar to 'Hernandez' in NEs set ... i would not, could not make him a FB ...

    what we don't have is a Gronk/Jennings type TE ... not that they grow on trees.

    we are not as bad off with WRs as some think ...
     
  25. mbmonk

    mbmonk I have no clue

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    Some people are taking the SBO joke way too serious and literal.
     
  26. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    I don't see it as a joke, I see it as branding.

    What does make me laugh, in a sad sort of way, is those who like the idea of a bland, Dolphins team with nameless drones playing, what a lack of vision in my estimation.
     
  27. SCall13

    SCall13 ThePhins QB

    Should we retain Bess, the WCO (or SBO) could benefit him more than any receiver on the roster. His precise routes and the ability to get open in space are important to the WCO. He does it as good as anyone.
     
  28. AdamC13

    AdamC13 Well-Known Member

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    SBO...I like it!

    Obviously we need an upgrade at QB over Moore to make it work. Philbin said the offense will have multiple formations and no huddle, so a high football IQ film-rat QB will be in order as I suppose the QB will counted on to call the play depending on the pre-snap read of the defense.
     
  29. AdamC13

    AdamC13 Well-Known Member

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    Philbin is big on high-character, stats don't matter, all about the team guys so I wouldn't be surprised to see Marshall traded depending on who is signed in FA and drafted.

    Would love for Miami to get Broyles in the 3rd round...but will probably have to spend 2nd if is at full speed following ACL tear. I think he would be a perfect fit for the SBO and the type of player Philbin is looking for.
     
  30. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I think more likely than not Clay is going to see more roles added to his plate, and be asked to do more like he did in college than "become" a fullback or tight end.

    The Packers do a lot of unique stuff with fullbacks and tight ends in the backfield, and run a lot of unconventional formations. Stuff like this:


    That's a 3-wide shotgun formation with two "true" fullbacks, with Korey Hall as a sort of H-Back and John Kuhn next to Rodgers where a runningback would normally be. They pretty frequently will replace a fullback with an halfback in shotgun formations, too.

    You also think Charles Clay might get a chance to show what he can do as a rusher too, if he's being put in those kind of situations. He averaged over 5 yards a carry in college and ran a Wildcat-type formation.

    Edit- I don't know why there is a tinier version of the attached image or how to get rid of it. Whoops.
     

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