Could our pass rush be as good as the giants if we sign mario williams

pointless thread? If we sign manning could our offense be as good as the patriots? really....

 

Wow, they all on you..

Franchise tag for Williams would be 22 million, so it is widely thought he will hit the open market.

Giants have 4 guys who can pressure, we'd have Wake and Williams and maybe Odrick and Starks, that is a bit of reach in comparison.

 

Not a chance. What makes the NYG DL as effective as it is, is that it runs a legit 7 deep when everyone is healthy and at any time you can throw out 4 very strong pass rushers. The advantage the NYG have over everyone is that Tuck is a DE that has a ton of experience at DT and can legitimately play there even though hes undersized because he can still use his hands better then most DT's. Kiwanunka can play inside as well when called upon and can rush from the interior DL. Then you have Osi and JPP on the outside....not much different then 2007 when they have Strahan and Osi outside and Tuck and Kiwi inside. Now they have Canty, Bernard, Tollefson as well.

If we signed Williams and used a high pick on Coples than you could start to possibly duplicate what the NYG have. The problem is that Coples showed up to the Senior Bowl under the 291 he was weighing because he wants to play DE not DT. But if you put hi and Odrick or Starks inside and then Wake and Williams on the ends then you have something. You'll have to find a legit run defender or two as well for the interior OL.

 

Pretty sure that 14M cap number for QB's that are franchised is not correct

 

Not sure we can afford getting Flynn or Manning and Williams. We are probably going to release a player or 2 so we can sign a wb, and then you are looking at maybe releasing more to sign Williams. Just don't see it.

 

Eh, maybe, I say that because we have a better back 7 then the Gmen, and probably better depth, but not the same with the front line guys they have, our problem being Misi would be in the Kiwi role and he is not as explosive as he needs to be to make that comparison.

 

We do not have a better back 7 then the NYG. The NYG back 7 are not strong run defenders but they have 3 LB's (JaQuan Williams, Michael Boley and Chase Blackburn) that can cover TE's. How many do we have? Has Misi ever called plays or packages? Boley does. Misi in the Kiwi role? How does a 240 pound LB compare to a 280 pound hybrid LB/DE/DT like Kiwi? I dont understand how that would work?

Secondary we have better athletes but they have a better scheme. Scheme > athletes. Keep in mind the NYG DB's are without their best CB in Terrell Thomas out with a torn ACL. Since Amukamura came back from injury they have been much better. While Smith, VD and Will Allen are more athletic and talented Ross, Amukamura and Webster are becoming excellent cover 2 players and all 3 can press. Theres an obvious emphasis on upper body strength, willingness to run defend (take note Sean Smith; 88th out of 109 CB's who played more the 25% of snaps vs the run is not good), and ball skills. Our staff is emphasizing athleticism and height.

The safety play has a disparity as well. Kenny Phillips and Antrel Rolle (with Deon Grant as a backup) vs Bell, Jones and Clemons. Need I say more?

 

Dansby and Burnett vs Blackburn (who was cut earlier in the yr) and Boley?

Do think Tuck+Kiwi is a better duo then Wake+Misi, but Starks and Odie vs Copeland and Canty?

Cb's are not really there to defend the run B14, recall "it's a passing league"?

Aaron Ross? Kenny Phillips? He was good then tore up his knee, Ross was sat and has been in the dog house for yrs, thusly Prince was drafted. Even then they have no one to match what VD brings to the table

Sure, Bell had over 100 tackles for the 4th straight yr, Deon Grant vs Reshad Jones? I'm not the largest RJ fan, but he is a tackling machine, Rolle they do have an edge, but how much does he cost them?

 

Well you left out Jacquan Wiliams. Tell me something...when did Dansby and Burnett ever shut down Gonzalez, Finley and Vernon Davis (ok 2 TD but those were his only catches and both came on plays where he was split out wide where its really safety and not LB responsibility) on their way to the SB? Theyre more talented but Williams and Boley have shown a knack for the big play and for forcing turnovers at opportune times.

CB's are there for contain though. According to PFF Smith ranked 88th and VD 54th vs the run. Ross was 34th vs the run, Webster 80th. But Amukamura would have been about 45th had he played enough snaps to qualify and thats without Terrell Thomas who was 5th vs the run last year. What I was actually pointing out was the philosophical differences in the way the teams go about assembling an on field product.

VD is a physical specimen and probably the most talented out of the bunch. But the Giants cater to scheme and coach and develop players. We do not. We sign players other teams develop. Phillips is still a very good safety who hits and has ball skills. He was ranked 6th out of 86 by PFF among all safeties with stout run and pass defense rankings. Sure they paid Rolle and Boley a lot but those are the only FA the NYG signed on their defense. Blackburn was a NYG originally if you remember. Reshad Jones couldnt cover me let alone an NFL WR. Sure he can tackle but his coverage skills....83rd out of 86. Bell came in at a respectable 29th of 86 vs the pass. And one other thing the NYG threw at opponents in 3 games this year...Rolle at WOLB. Starting and playing games at OLB specifically to cover TE's. It was due to injuries but he didnt play poorly though it did kill his rating in coverage.

 

I think it is the 22mil for DE that isn't correct. The way it works now too is the franchise amount is based on the Franchise amnt at the position over the past 5 seasons, not just the top 5 in the most recent season. Major concession for owners in the new CBA.
Franchise amount for a QB will be $14.4mil.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000...-values-will-be-down-across-the-board-in-2012

 

Ah I stand corrected, did not know that.

 

Not so fast my friend:

Not a straight up franchise tag situation, cannot believe he made 18 million in 2011, wow, crazy money, he's a good player, but not worth quite that much, Peppers I could see, Williams not so much.

 

Ok, he falls under the parameters of the back to back franchise tag rules. Same as Soliai. They get either the avg of the past 5 yrs worth of Franchise tags or 120% raise, whichever is higher.

I see according to this site, he didn't make 18mil in 2011

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/houston-texans/mario-williams/

His base salary was 13,800,000 and his cap hit including incentive bonus was 15.150,000

On the first link, from nfl.com it also says this pertaining to Williams and Soliai, as the two with an asterisk by their name:

 

Not pointless at all and who are you to say so?


Mario Williams OR Quinten Colples would make Miami's line as good as the Giants.

 

not sure any of this matters right now today ... until we here what type of defense Coyle prefers .... 3-4 or 4-3 ...

regardless my main interest is not in the DL ... it remains in improving the LB corps -- namely Misi as an OLB; he just isn't an impact player on the edge. Still like others, believe he could be better on the inside.

whether or not we go with a 4-3 or not ... we don't have a Pierre-Paul type player - long, lean and strong .... he is a BETTER version of Jason Taylor, since he actually has the strength to go with the body type (of course he doesn't quite have the speed that JT once had -- so as in everything, there is a trade off). But, I'd take JPP every day of the week, as he can hold the edge -- something that was a weakness for JT his whole career.

 

Yes. Identical to that of the Giants.

 

I don't know that the Giants pass rush is really all that better than ours now. It wasn't leaps and bounds more productive, and their scheme is more aggressive. They blitzed more, and overwhelmingly they've got three "edge-rushers" on the field at a time in pretty much every package. We frequently fielded a Nickel package with only one.

I'd love to see the Dolphins implement some of the stuff the Giants do, and I agree the first step is finding a quality RDE. I'm not sure that is Mario Williams price-wise, I don't know if we have the ability with the salary cap to pursue him when we're probably aggressively going after a quarterback option in free agency. I would like to see them run with Koa Misi as a Kiwanuka-style linebacker, though. I don't know we really need to pursue a Justin Tuck style guy when we're deep at Tackles who can rush.

 

It's like the Giants have three Cameron Wakes in Jason Pierre Paul, Osi Umenyiora and Justin Tuck. Where we're potentially better is that our DTs could rush the passer better than any Giant DT.

 

Just listened to a radio interview on WFAN 660AM NY with ex Jet Brad Smith who now plays for Buffalo. He played the NYG this year. During the interview he was asked if he felt the Giants had the best DL and he said yes because the pass rushers bring a different element. Cited how Osi and JPP are unlike any tandem on the outside and Tuck is a difference maker inside.

Wasnt too much of note there except that tidbit and felt the Giants have momentum on their side. But I thought you might find the perspective of a player of interest. If indeed we go with a 4-3 look, this is the model we need to duplicate imo. The traditional 4-3 model with 2 run stuffing tackles is over with imo. If we're going to run a 4-3 base D, I dont believe it can be successful with both Starks and Odrick in the game regularly as your starting DT's. Signing Mario Wiliams or even John Abraham and drafting Quinton Coples would be a priority for me.