Good news..''Put the toothpaste back in the tube''

mike dee was part of the mastermind that bleed every single inch out of fenway park, seats closer to the batters box, seats on the green monster, seats on the right field roof, all at a premium, hell, there's lottery's to get those seats...if dee was part of a group that squeezed more money of that crap hole up here, i'm sure they can turn JRS around

 

and if you don't think being closer to the field affects the fans and the players and the feel of the game, you've clearly never been to Gillette. Seats are close to the field and everything there is loud. Holy crap that stadium rocks. While it is the players and coaches on the field that ultimately decide the game, the fans and stadium do play a "part."

 

COuld it be the case the basically demolish the lower bowl and then lower the pitch and rebuild the seats on a bigger slope down to the pitch level ?

Thats been done quite a few times in stadia over here with each extra row of seats adding on about 1000-2000 depending on the size of the stadium. Not sure if thats possible for Miami to do that , is the stadium used much out of season ?

 

I only skimmed the article, but you are most definitely right there is a huge controversy but not just about the Super Bowl but instead the economic impact of stadiums overall. When a city is about to build a stadium they will usually hire a company to perform an economic impact study. These companies will come in and say building this stadium will add a $10 million dollar (I'm making this number up) impact on the economy. But I'm sure as the article points out these numbers are wrong for several reasons. 1) These companies are hired to to prove why the city needs a stadium so the numbers are over exaggerated. 2) They often fail to account for the fact that the stadium is really just recyling money in the economy. Most fans are local and if they didn't have a stadium they'd be spending their money somewhere else.

However, what we were taught the semester I studied financing sport and stadium construction was that stadiums had the highest economic impact when they brought people from outside the local economy. Also the longer the stay the higher the impact. For example Bike Week has a huge impact on the local econmy because it lasts so long and it brings people from all over. The majority of Super Bowl fans (unless the home team is in it) come from all across the country. These people have to rent hotel rooms, go to restaurants from food and they may even do some local shopping. While the Super Bowl is only a one day event, the average fan is probably there for two days some three and others longer. With all the festivites that are going on now it makes it more of a party and gives people an incentive to stay longer. All of the money spent by these fans is new money being put into the econmy that wouldn't have been put in had the Super Bowl not been hosted. So while as the article stated the impact may not be as high as people claim it is, there is still a very large impact. It's just people tend to overblow the numbers out of proportion.

 

Not too mention, no one hosts the SB every year, like a Bike Week or a Mardi Gras. So, I'd say the impact is even smaller.

 

Definitely. It's not something that can sustain an economy, but it does give a nice boost every few years. If the Dolphins want the city to fund the renovations, then they need to do things that will bring a real economic impact to the city. If they made it so they could host a week-long convention that draws vendors and visitors from all over that would be huge. It's a shame the redesign will significantly change the structure. I know back in the day JR wanted to host soccer games, and if the US could ever get a World Cup again then Miami could potentially be a host site for group play. The impact of that event would undoubetdly be high. Basically they need to draw in people from out of town for long periods of time to really benefit the local economy.

 

You'd think with the relative size of football in FL (probably only 2nd to Texas) there could be some kind of Football Convention every year. Imagine college & high school players coming from around the country for clinics, gear, etc.

 

I would also like to point out one other thing regarding stadiums. First, there have been several different eras of stadium financing throughout history. Back when JRS was originally built I think you were still in the Public Subsidy Era where the public funded almost 80% of the stadiums. Since then we have moved towards the Privately Funded Era where we are seeing more of these stadiums being funded by the owners themselves and things like sponorships, naming rights and psl's. The reason for this is because the tax payers got tired of getting ripped off. That's why the Marlins getting their stadium funded by the city as much as it did is so mind boggling. Also we are starting to move into a contstruction period where stadiums are becoming destination venues. It's not about the game anymore. With high def tv's and everything else that keep the fan at home there is added pressure to make a stadium the 8th wonder of the world. Dallas Cowboys stadium is a prime example of a destination venue, and that stadium has also hosted an NBA All-Star game and I think a boxing match. That's the kind of things we need to be doing with the stadium if we want to bring in extra money. However the down side is that all these things cause the cost of tickets to go up. It's a vicious circle really. And it's why DJ will never see his Orange Bowl 2 dream come true. There is no value in building a simple and solid football stadium anymore.

 

The Orange Bowl was a great example of that. When you were on the field and it was rocking it often felt like a wave of humanity was about to crash down on you. This is probably foreign to most of the young fans, but back in those days people would regularly talk about how much of a home field advantage we had in that stadium due to the heat and the fans.

 

Yeah, that view is insane, Aqua. I flash over to Seahawk games just to catch a glimpse.

I wish the Dolphins had their stadium near downtown to capture that beautiful view. Being too lazy to make that happen was a big mistake.

When I was visiting Denver (my move there has been delayed), it was awesome having Coors field downtown right off their main attraction street full of food, bars, shopping, etc with Mile High & Six Flags just around the corner. So I can only imagine how great it must be in Seattle.

There's something special about being able to make a day of a game--- relax and get a bite to eat first (maybe brunch in Miami), give yourself a few hours to both get into your game mood and build up the anticipation & excitement around downtown streets full of fans & establishments rockin their game-day spirit.
Then post-game, you can stroll out, hopefully in high spirits after a win, and then stay in that high-spirited mood by walking around downtown amongst your fellow fans, getting some grub & beer at a sports bar with scantily dressed girls, soak in the 4pm or late game. Then go home at your leisure.... full, buzzed, happy. There's no feeling of--- Ok, time to go. Let's go get in some traffic.


Instead Dolphin fans get: a parking lot, trees, and a canal.....

pregame is even better: you have paying tolls and the irritability of sitting in traffic with nothing around to look at or keep the mood elevated.

**For non-tailgaters, having stuff to do at the stadium isn't the same as passing the time downtown b/c once you get to the stadium you hit that "game mode" where you're just counting down the minutes till kickoff. The stadium attractions before the game are more like "time-fillers".

**For non tailgaters, you have only the above mentioned monotonous & sometimes annoying drive followed by the game itself, and that's basically it, so it's no wonder that Dolphin fans are routinely late for kickoffs b/c the thought of that drive doesn't leave you with a feeling of "Let's hurry up and get in the car" since it's human nature to procrastinate on things we don't enjoy. Then this procrastination and sitting in traffic knowing you might miss the kickoff puts you in an anxious, sensitive, and crabby mood which does nothing for game spirit.

Post game is terrible: It's "let's hurry up and get in the car to beat the traffic!". Many fans are immediately met with more feelings of deflation and lowered spirits, just as were experienced during the drive there. You really don't have time both to unwind & enjoy the [hopeful] win & game itself and then leave when you're good and ready.

**So there's really not much to motivate the casual fan to attend games when they can head to downtown Lauderdale (for example), skip the terrible traffic, tolls, parking fees, and overpriced food & drinks, and then relax, drink, eat, catch the kickoff, skip post game traffic & more tolls, drink some more, be present for the subsequent 4pm kickoff, and not have to miss an hour of your fantansy team's peformance which for some fans has become just as exciting as following your actual home team.

However, if there was a downtown and nearby attractions, fans could leave home a bit early to to get some food etc, and once there you're constantly aware of the time so that you can walk to the stadium in time for kickoff. It provides that gap of time needed to improve the deflated mood that the spirit-depriving drive left you in so you don't mentally go from "annoying drive" right into "time for kickoff". you know.

 

Have you been to the new Giants' stadium? It produces no noise or energy.

The problem is that these teams are building new stadiums to make money, not create energy. People that pay $400 for ticket probably aren't going to be the rowdy type.

 

see my above post. lol

If your stadium's location is terrible and sets fans up for a lackluster overall game day experience, then you better make up for it with the way the stadium itself is constructed.

If the stadium's location initially leaves fans feeling somewhat disconnected, in less-elevated spirits, and late to games b/c no one looks forward to the monotonous drive there, then you better make sure the construction of the stadium itself gets the fans back feeling connected and in higher spirits.

Joe Robbie Stadium's (that's my default name b/c of all these ridiculous name changes) location has so much going against it that it needs to exhaust every measure possible within the stadium in attempt to remotely counter this. If that means getting the fans closer to the action, making it more aesthetically pleasing than a sea of bright orange, adding more shade, etc, then that's what you do.

 

Yup!

**People put on headphones and crank up the music to try and get themselves pumped up for activities & challenges.
Well, in football, the stadium, it's location, atmosphere, etc are analogous to the headphones & music, and Miami is currently playing Beethoven when other locations are pumping "Loose Yourself" by Eminem.

I don't mean to make this a Clemson thing, but their stadium's impact is the only example I can quickly reference, so that's what I'll use.

It's about the entire game day experience, including the stadium, atmosphere, environment, noise level, attractions before and after games, etc. It all sets the tone for the game IMO. Clemson is in the middle of no where, but everything about it gets fans involved & pumped up, keeps them involved, and elevates the players mood, anticipation, and excitement as well. Fans have reasons to arrive early and stay late w/o feeling rushed to jump back in traffic. If high school kids get excited about coming to a little town like Clemson to play in this atmosphere, then I have a seriously difficult time believing that NFL players aren't impacted by their game day atmosphere (or lack there of) from the drive to the game to being in the stadium itself, then followed by the drive home.

IMO the Hurricanes will never recover their old swagger while playing at Joe Robbie. They might see spurts of success, but I don't see it being sustained in the same manner the Orange Bowl and it's location & atmosphere provided.



..... and you don't have to build a state of the art billion dollar stadium to accomplish this. That's not what it's about IMO.

 

I think where DJ and I disagree, and where Aqua and I agree is this:

I simply do not believe that the stadium or arena in which a team plays has any ebaring on whether or not the home team wins or loses. Now a more intimate venue might be better, it might be more fun to play in, and the players may think it gives them an edge, but I guarantee the correlation is not there.

The hurricanes played at the Orange Bowl for five years following the 2001 championship and slowlyd eclined, the home field advantage making no difference. They lost 48-0 there in the final game.

The Hurricanes also played at the Orange Bowl long before Howard Schnellenberger came on the scene and no one was intimidated. 42 years long. It's the team, not the stadium

 

The new Dolphins stadium design won't and can't address the intimacy issue. They can reduce the pitch angle of the lower bowl to fit more seats and bring the first few rows closer to the field. But, without redoing the whole thing, they can't bring the majority of the seats closer. An ideal stadium would be built ground up with absolute minimal surface area, steepest possible seat pitch, utilizing the loudest materials that resonate with crowd noise. Then, there would be real intimidation.

 

Why is "pumped up" preferable to being "focused"?

Thats what it is about in the NFL. The stadiums are getting more expensive, not louder. If you look at the most recent stadiums built, they're quieter than the ones they replaced.

 

I really like Snow Cap.

 

I respectfully disagree b/c the location and atmosphere that gets the fans more pumped up, emotionally involved, and eager to arrive has the same effect on players who also go through a pregame routine of driving to the game, visually taking in the atmosphere (or lack there of), visually seeing or driving through the pre-game fan activity which can be motivating in and of itself. In a great stadium and around a great game day atmosphere, players don't have to try as hard to pump themselves up and get into "game mode"; it just smacks them right in the face. You can't tell me that Karlos Dansby making his pregame trip to Joe Robbie has the same impact as James Harrison going through downtown Pittsburgh to Heinz field.

If visualization had no impact, then Hollywood wouldn't spend billions on special effects and we wouldn't spend billions on porn.
If you think the energy, mood, and emotion of others aren't transferable or absorbable, then you haven't witnessed the crowd at tradition Catholic Mass vs an African-American Baptist Church.

 

It does. I have been waiting for this game for 8 years now.

 

Extra adrenaline can also help you lose focus and make mistakes.

 

It can also help you gain focus and make less mistakes.

 

NCAA Football saw its greatest home win streak at the Orange Bowl.

--58 straight home wins (1985 to 1994).
--That's 9 years.
--That's 58-0 at the ORANGE BOWL (1.000%)..... 37-10 ON THE ROAD (0.787%).
--Bowl Game Record: 3-0 Orange Bowl (1.000%)..... 2-4 Away (0.333%)

That's NINE YEARS of not one loss, not one slip up, fluke loss, or accidental loss at the Orange Bowl.
That breaks the laws of probability, yet you discard it as happenstance and "guarantee no correlation exists"? .....

The above would never have happened at Joe Robbie. NEVER..... not unless we're talking about accomplishing the above away record, b/c yeah, that could happen at Joe Robbie.


The 37-10 Canes (2-4 in Bowls) away from the Orange Bowl during the above period would still be considered a great team in their own right.
BUT, when adding in the Orange Bowl, the Canes leap to a staggering 95-10 (5-4 in Bowls) and ascend from "great but forgettable" to "NCAA elite and forever memorable".


From 1980 to 2007
Orange Bowl record: 144-24 (0.857%). They're since 16-10 (0.615%) at Roe Robbie Radium, right Raggy.
Away record: 115-45 (719%).
(Is 27 years not a large enough sample size to establish both correlation and the impact of the Orange Bowl?)


Opponents playing at the Orange Bowl was a separate feat unto itself.
They then had to play the daunting Canes on top of it.
It's a compounding affect. It's not just one or the other, and neither can do without the other.

Uhh, so your entire argument is founded on the 50's, 60's, & 70's along with 2 seasons in the 2000's that featured 3 HC changes in 8 years and a program controversy?



-The "stadium" won't turn chicken **** into chicken salad during all those pre-1980 years where football wasn't a huge priority.
-The "stadium" doesn't play the actual games or run the program.
-The "stadium" isn't to blame for 3 coaching changes in 8 years.
-The "stadium" isn't to blame for any program controversy.


-Just a few questions:
1. If the Orange Bowl wasn't a legitimate asset, then why did UM schedule so many more home games?
2. In 1987, why'd UM schedule ONLY 4 away games?...Is it coincidental UM won a Natl Champ that year, in the OB to boot?
3. In 1993, why is it UM can go 6-0 at home (during this 58 game win streak) but only 3-3 on the road including a blow-out Fiesta Bowl loss to Arizona?
5. Why are the Canes only 16-10 at Joe Robbie since the move despite having similarly great recruiting classes? (ranked #7, 4, 13, 7, 1, 9, 17 from 2004-2010)

 

Who said you only can be one or the other?
Being focused doesn't mean you can't be mentally pumped-up, too, right?... and being mentally pumped-up doesn't mean you lose focus.

......however, it's possible for many players that a void of either controlled adrenaline and/or that mentally "pumped-up" feeling leads to:
-anxiety, nervousness, jitters. (adrenaline can work against you if you have little control over it).
-not being fully relaxed due to jitters etc (tense muscles are slower reacting ones, including the brain, no?).
-over-thinking due to feelings of jitters and/or pressure.
-hesitation (due to both over-thinking and the mind's greater awareness of fear during a physical sport).
-affected instincts (due to over-thinking, mental tension, and the brain's heightened sense of fear of bodily injury)


**A focused player who gets mentally pumped-up and utilizes controlled adrenaline has numerous advantages over a player relying on focus alone:
1. increased energy & speed and stronger muscles that are able to react more quickly and efficiently than normal due to increased blood flow.
2. dilated pupils leading to improved & sharper vision with increased field of vision to better sense danger.
3. increased neural activity and its related improved alertness & focus
4. sometimes the feeling of time slowing down (like Martial Art fighters occasionally experience)
5. decreased feeling of stress (side affect of adrenaline)
6. process more information & multi-task at a rapid rate (side affect of adrenaline)
7. more air to lungs/improved breathing
8. Increased tolerance of pain (adrenaline side affect to cope with potential bodily harm). (see Tim Tebow and his constant mentally pumped-up state. See Tebow for #1, too. lol. You could throw Tebow in for #2 as well considering his pocket awareness and eyes that seem in the back of his head at times. Heck, while we're at it, Toss in Tebow to #3 considering, in the 4th quarter where he's the the most mentally pumped and utilizes controlled adrenaline to his advantage, he plays his best ball, shows improved decision making, and seems to possess better instincts.)


If your home stadium and everything encompassing game day atmosphere acts like a 12 man and can help sustain that aroused mental pump & adrenaline, then it's a benefit.... and if it's a benefit, then your home field can in fact be a mild to significant advantage.

Depending on the position you play, not taking advantage of controlled adrenaline while your opponent does could be like not using steroids while your opponent does.

 

well, there's a reason why no one is moving and having fun at a catholic church up here in Massachusetts, but that's a completely different story

 

Hilton magic baby!

Fred Hoiberg is the first man to pull the treble on Kansas!


He beat them as a player, a coach, and a ball boy


No, bug Hilton Coliseum is awesome. Kills me that I moved away right as Hoiberg took over

 

I could understand the argument against it if we were winning at home in spite of all our home field disadvantages. Granted we still have the humidity, if we can utilize it better w/o hurting fan attendance.

At one point there was some nostalgia (with the stadium being new and all) which helped keep fans more involved and in higher spirits, but I think that wore out its welcome years ago, no? How's the joke go? "For every hot woman there's a guy who's tired of sleeping with her". lol.
With the "newness" of the stadium long gone, there's no "outstanding personality" to keep keep us fully involved. lol.

We're like the married couple who stays together under the same roof b/c of the kids, only the kids in this scenario are the Dolphins, and the "same roof" is the stadium that we visit to see em. If it weren't for the "kids" we wouldn't be hanging around the "house". Where as, there are other stadiums, ballparks, etc around the country that are so approachable & entertaining all by their lonesome and have such great atmosphere that people show up even if the kids aren't theirs. (Those are called "bastard" players, and they typically exist in New England. See what I did there? :lol)

I know this first hand. After basically blowing out my shoulder & elbow (as a pitcher), I haven't paid attention to or watched a single MLB in like 15 years despite being as big a Braves fan growing up as I am a Dolphin fan. TBS was my default TV station.

Fast forward to 2011. When I visited Denver and saw Coors Field, its location, and atmosphere, I immediately said "I haven't watched a game in years and don't even care about baseball anymore, but I could really see myself attending Rockies games", especially if I live downtown and can just walk to the ballpark, walk home, subliminally take a detour down 16th Street to the Tilted Kilt for a few six or seven pints of Dale's Pale Ale, take in the view



..........and then stumble home in the high altitude w/o any worries of a DUI.

Good luck getting any of that at Joe Pro Sun Shark Stadium.

 

http://www.nfl.com/features/freakonomics/episode-7

 

I honestly don't know if a louder more active crowd has a measurable advantage or not especially in the win/loss column. I do know for a fact that a louder more active crowd makes for a more enjoyable experience for the fans and the team. I've been to a handful of games and some were wins and some were loses.

2 stick out:

1. Marino's retirement celebration.
2. When we ended the Jets/Parcells winning streak against us (the "Gadsen Catch" game)

Those were waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more enjoyable than any other game experience, because the crowd was unbelievably, loud, active & united.