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"Time to Copy the NYG Blueprint?"

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Boik14, Feb 13, 2012.

  1. Boik14

    Boik14 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    My response below is to Matt Bowen who wrote article on NationalFootballPost.com. I would suggest reading the article or else you will not understand the context of my response. I am basically agreeing with his first two points and disagreeing with his last two: http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Time-to-copy-the-Giants-blueprint-for-winning.html


    There are four reasons the NYG won and they differ slightly from what you mentioned Matt.

    1. QB play...This one you nailed and it all starts here. Without a QB you do have no chance so the personnel man you spoke to is right on especially when you consider how much of a passing league its become.

    2. Pass rush is clearly 1A on this list. Eli was great all season but the team didnt start winning until week 16 vs the Jets. During that game the offense was completely shut down and it was Eli's worst game in a few years. But it was the best game the defense had played all year to that point. They were dominated in time of possession but Sanchez and the Jets didnt do squat. That coincided with Tuck's resurgence and getting Osi, JPP and Kiwanuka on the field at the same time.

    3. Coaching....Not that Tom Coughlin isnt a great coach, he is severely underrated with a career win % around .600 and now 2 SB wins. But also realizing when the scheme is not fitting his personnel. Through the first 11 games or so the Giants defense was really struggling. Part of the reason why was because Perry Fewell was changing schemes and coverages and it definitely confused the players. Coughlin put a stop to it and basically made it a cover 2 the rest of the way. Realizing why your team is struggling and fixing the problem was a big reason why the Cowboys, Jets, Falcons, Packers, 49ers, and Pats couldnt put up more then 20 points the last 6 games.

    4. This relates to 3...But one of the other unnoticed adjustments the NYG made was that they started to treat other teams TE's like WR's and started jamming them with Boley, Jacquain Williams and Chase Blackburn (who we all remember sucking wind after his INT of Brady). The last6 games the NYG played they faced many of the leagues great TE's starting with Keller, Witten, Gonzalez, Finley, Vernon Davis, and concluding with Gronkowski/Hernandez. Lets look at how the NYG linebackers did:

    Week 16 vs Keller: 8 catches/77 yards/9.63 YPC/0 TD
    Season Averages: Well below his average of 12.01 YPC

    Week 17 vs Witten: 7 catches/69 yards/9.86 YPC/0 TD
    Season Averages: Well below his average of 11.92 YPC.

    WC Game vs Gonzalez: 4 catches/44 yards/11 YPC/0 TD
    Season Averages: Right at season average of 11.61 YPC but almost everything came late in the game after the NYG had built a substantial lead.

    Division Round vs Finley: 4 catches/37 yards/9.25 YPC/0 TD
    Season Averages: Well below average of 13.27 YPC, Almost 1 TD per game (15 in 16 games)

    NFC CG vs Davis: 3 catches/112 yards/ 37.33 YPC/2 TD
    Season Averages: 11.82 YPC.
    Note: Both TD's for Davis came split out wide as a receiver on nearly identical routes. When confined to the normal alignment of the TE position he was limited to 1 catch for 11 yards and was consistently jammed at the line throwing off timing of routes.

    SB vs Gonkowski/Hernandez: Gronkowski had 2 catches/26 yards/13YPC/0 TD. Hernandez had 8 catches/67 yards/8.38 YPC/1 TD (first TD scored vs a NYG LB lined up inside during this stretch)
    Season Averages: Gronkowski averaged 14.74 YPC and 1.06 TD's per game. Hernandez averaged 11.9 YPC and .8125 TD per game (13 TD in 16 games).

    My point here is that when TE's were lining up at their normal TE position they were consistently below their season averages and were consistently not red zone threats. It took the greatness of Tom Brady to finally squeeze in a TD to Hernandez. The NYG LB's, largely no names except or Boley, consistently took away and jammed TE's. This illustrates not only the adjustments teams made but also just how much the TE means to teams in terms of how their performance affects the offense. With the exception of the Jets, all 6 of those teams are prolific passing teams with good skill players. Yet without their TE's they could muster very little in terms of points vs a NYG defense that was previously very average. Schematically, going to the cover 2 consistently eliminated all threats of the TE being a factor.

    So the question here is really; Is the future of the 4-3 defense so simple as:
    - 4 pass rushers up front playing 2 gap
    - 2 coverage LB's in the game at all times
    - Cover 2 zone/man from your DB's
     
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  2. BlameItOnTheHenne

    BlameItOnTheHenne Taking a poop

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    I'd rather just create a Miami Dolphins blueprint to winning.
     
  3. Ronnie Bass

    Ronnie Bass Luxury Box Luxury Box

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    This happens alot in all sports, one team wins a championship and everyone wants to copy their formula. Problem is it's easier said than done.
     
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  4. NorFlaFin

    NorFlaFin Active Member

    JMO: The most important thing the Giants did was the same as the Steelers.

    They had a dominate running game that allowed them to "grow a young QB" without losing, without the QB getting killed, and losing his confidence.
     
  5. NorFlaFin

    NorFlaFin Active Member

    JMO: The most important thing the Giants did was the same as the Steelers.

    They had a dominate running game that allowed them to "grow a young QB" without losing, without the QB getting killed, and losing his confidence.
     
  6. Boik14

    Boik14 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Yeah that would have been true around 2008. Eli definitely was helped because of that and he went from a very green rookie who was kind of shaky to a good qb by the time 2007 hit. But he definitely took the next step from good to an elite the last 2 years and it wasnt cause of the running game which ranked last this year in both YPG and YPA.
     
  7. MonstBlitz

    MonstBlitz Nobody's Fart Catcher

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    Link isn't working for me. Is it just me?
     
  8. jw3102

    jw3102 season ticket holder

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    You forgot the most important person in building this type of team. That is a GM who actually knows how to select quality football players. Until Ross realizes that Ireland is not this type GM, the Dolphins will continue to flounder at the bottom of the NFL. By this time next year, all those Ireland fans will realize that he is the problem and not the solution.
     
  9. Boik14

    Boik14 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    It wasnt just you, i put in a new link which works
     
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  10. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

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    Nice write up. In Stat class right now so I'll respond once I stop pretending like I'm studying for my midterm.
     
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  11. AdamC13

    AdamC13 Well-Known Member

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    Not saying the NYG didn't earn their championship but how does one account for building in "luck" to the formula?

    Tony Romo doesn't overthrow Miles Austin on an EASY TD pass in week 14 when the Cowboys were up by 12 and 4 minutes left and the NYG don't even make it to the playoffs.

    Wes Welker makes the catch or Rob Gronkowski doesn't injure his ankle in the AFC Championship game and most likely no is talking about the NYG being the formula for success.

    Of course, there was the David Tyree catch in 2008...

    Plenty of good strategies for building a winning formula out there, basically comes down to: competent coaches + talented players = formula for success.
     
  12. SCall13

    SCall13 ThePhins QB

    By the time a team exhausts their efforts into transforming their team into the image of another, a new way of winning has evolved. Just build a dominant team, execute, and win.
     
  13. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    Luck always plays an underratedly large role in winning championships, but you can't really account for it. You just need to put yourself in the best position possible and hope the bounces go your way.
     
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  14. Boik14

    Boik14 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Does luck also account for new England not beating a team over 500 until the playoffs and then beating IMO the best team in the AFC? Does luck also account for Brett Favre throwing a boneheaded int in overtime vs New Orleans two years ago and catapulting New Orleans in to the SB? There's a thousand instances like this. It always plays a role.
     
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  15. PHINANALYST

    PHINANALYST Well-Known Member

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    the G-Men are 'a' blueprint ... 'a' blueprint for getting pressure on the QB -- plain and simple. that can be accomplished in several different ways (4 interchangeable DLs is one of them).

    i am incredibly happy that the PATSIES didn't win another SB (don't want to see that for another 20 years or so) ... but their O playcalling was very suspect. With the little pressure the G-Men got in the 1st half, i would have bet large sums of $$$ that they would have ended up winning the game. Brady, not really harrassed until the last '1/3d' of the game ... just did not have a good day (even if he was injured the last qtr). To say Gronk was 100% is a joke ... he was no where near.

    none-the-less ... Boley covered the TEs about as good as Crowder ... he was no where near the point of catch most of the day. what made NE 'above the rest' was the combination of Hernandez and Gronk ... they did not have that in the SB, and it made their O - almost ordinary. The G-Men's D wasn't really that 'great' that day ... but certainly 'good enough'
     
  16. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    IMO the Pats had a better game plan, it just wasn't enough to overcome a a few bad bounces and the better personnel on NY.
     
  17. Clipse

    Clipse mediocrity sucks

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    This day and age, you have to be able to throw the ball, and stop the opposing QB from throwing the ball. Have to get to the QB and create turnovers. Pretty much the reason I wasn't sad to see Nolan go. We've been among the worst in the league at creating turnovers since he got here. Not all his fault though. We have no great players on defense. No playmakers. Cameron Wake was 2 seasons ago, not so much last year, which tends to happen when you have nobody else on the team worth a damn as a pass rusher to limit the double teams on Wake. Dansby could be a great player, but was awful at the beginning of the year. Same with Burnett. Vontae can be a great player too, but way too inconsistent right now.
     
  18. AdamC13

    AdamC13 Well-Known Member

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    Exactly my point. I didn't even mention GB dropped 8-9 balls against the G-men or Williams of SF letting the punt hit his knee. There isn't just "one" blueprint to follow. There are plenty.
     
  19. jw3102

    jw3102 season ticket holder

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    I would classify them as players who contributed to a team which went 6-10 last year, which was in the bottom ten won loss records in the NFL. The last I checked, the team is suppose to field a team with 53 players. Of the players you listed, only Long and Marshall made the Pro Bowl last season. Long really didn't deserve to make it because of injuries and it was his worst overall year since coming into the NFL. He made it more on reputation than his actual play on the field in 2011.

    I have never thought that Fasano was that good to begin with. He shows up for some games and is never heard from in other games. I consider him a mediocre TE, at best. Pouncey looks like he will turn out to be a good addition to the offensive line. Of course Ireland has had so many misses on the offensive line that it is about time he gets one right. Bush and Marshall were decent pickups but I do feel that two number two picks for Marshall was a lot more than any other GM would have given up for him. Bush played well in the second half of the season, but he was terrible early in the season.

    Bess was not nearly as productive last year as he has been in previous years.

    As far as all the defensive players you listed. All I know is that these are the same defensive players who were on the field during the 6-10 season. They were all lousy early in the season and they were unable to make any plays when the game was on the line in those 10 losses. So while they played well against the other bad teams in the NFL. Against the better teams on their schedule, they didn't have what it takes to provide victories in these games.

    When I look at a team, the only thing that matters to me is the teams record. Over the last three years, their record has been a combined 20-28. Ireland has done a terrible job so far of selecting the quality players needed to turn this organization around. As I stated earlier, he is the problem and not the solution.
     
  20. miamiron

    miamiron There's always next year

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    part of a 6-10 season
     
  21. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Why, Boik? It only works every few years. Just sayin.

    If it were more consistent than that I think you'd have a point.


















    :shifty:
     
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  22. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    but luck is typically equal across the board, no?..... and for the examples you listed, there are also probably ones that went in the Cowboys' favor as well. Respectfully, I'm not understanding your point, Adam, because you first mention luck as an excuse, and then you seem to excuse a great play as luck.


    IMO the Giants formula and the direction they went is a great way to go (and it seems somewhat timeless b/c it's won SBs verse 2 different types of Patriot offenses IIRC).

    Also keep in mind:
    1. NY already had 3 studly pass rushers when they drafted JPP in the 1st round. That's not a move that many teams would have made, but it had a huge payoff, so it's not just about identifying talent. I'm sure the "blue print" they plugged him into along with the coaching involved helped get a green JPP up to an elite level quite quickly, so there's that to consider, too.
    2. The Giants offense had a devastating 1-2 punch at running back, and conventional football wisdom might've said to stay with that, especially with a solid defense behind them and the fact that it already helped them win 1 SB. Instead, they built up the pass game to where it now trumps their rushing attack, essentially creating amazing balance and harmony between the 2 IMO.
     
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  23. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    And Ireland was both handicapped & limited by Parcells & Henning... and trying to draft players to fit a dinosaur offense, but people conveniently ignore this for some reason.
     
  24. He hasnt been great but he hasnt been terrible either. Some of your evaluations are pretty unfair and somewhat short sighted. For example you are critical of how much he gave to aquire B Marshall (who did make it to the probrowl) then your equally critical of Bush because of his slow start but yu give Ireland no credit for getting value for that trade. It seems as if you have a bit of an agenda and your more interested in validating yur personal oppion of him then your interested in evaluating him from an unbias perspective.

    Another thing you seem to be doing is blaming him for players underachieving. IMO that speaks more to coaching then it does to talent evaluation. Players under-perform due to a lack of being coached up. There is a marked improvement of talent since Ireland has been our GM. Its hard to say how much he was on board with choosing sporano but I will agree that this new staff has his fingerprints on it and thier performance will be a reflection of his decission to recommend them to Ross. Time will tell.

    I do not mean to sound like I'm tearing you apart and in reality I'm not overwhelmed with Ireland but I think he deserves a fair shake. So far he has been OK overall. He is a 1st time GM and has made rookie mistakes, I will grant you that but lets not pretend he has been a total disaster either. He had two very big messes on his plate to deal with when he accepted this job. Overall this team had very limited talent and no cap space. 3 years later and we have talent here and with the help of an uncapped season and the forsight to take the hits needed we are in a much better finacial postion to buy more talent. JMO
     
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  25. Good points if I had read your post before I posted mine I might of simply thanked you and moved on :lol:
     
  26. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    no, your points were worthy of their own merit IMO.
     
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  27. IMO Dallas would of lost on Thanksgiving day against us if it wasnt for Luck falling thier way. Thats hw it goes though. They won, we lost.
     
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  28. Aquafin

    Aquafin New Member

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    damn it that was what i intended to say why cant we use the 3 te sets or use 4 wr sets with a rb or full back I say lets get us a stud tightend and get us two more wrs
    and then let us go win a superbowl.
     
  29. Boik14

    Boik14 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Well that kinda missed the point. The point i was trying to get across is this...the Giants do a few things differently then other teams.

    For starters the focus on defensive linemen who either through practice or necessity have learned to play multiple positions. How could a phone booth guard possibly match up on a 260LB speed rusher with good strength and technique like Justin Tuck? Extraordinarily difficult matchup. They dont employ 3 down run stuffers, they use 1 run stuffer usually (Canty, Rocky Bernard and Linval Joseph generally rotate) and Tuck usually plays almost every down because what he does is so hard to duplicate. We could duplicate by drafting Courtney Upshaw and having him study tapes of Tuck playing inside.

    All GM's should understand this...if youre going to play a 4-3 the run stuffing DT is a thing of past. You simply cannot have players on your DL that cannot generate pressure on the QB. You can rotate them in like the NYG do but placing high emphasis on them...those days are over (at least for now).

    Secondly, most teams focus on LB's that can play the run. The Giants LB's are all pretty average vs the run, except Boley. All three, Boley-Blackburn-JacQuain Williams are all very good vs the pass. Most teams are lucky to have 1 LB good vs the pass, the NYG have 3.

    The NYG also employ a lot of 2 gap from their defensive line. They dont use a lot of blitzing. By having a DL capable of using just 4 rushers to rush the QB and play the run well they can afford to drop 7. This shows the emphasis that teams should be placing on DL. Its quite a change from many 4-3 teams.

    Lastly the Giants over those 6 games started to press and jam TE's like WR's. This threw off the timing of routes and took a way a primary weapon for those other teams. While those teams were studying tapes of the NYG from earlier in the year the NYG were changing course and they really had no counter for it. New Engalnd didnt have enough WR's to threaten the NYG vertically. GB may have suffered from being off but they were sloppy all around. Not like the NYG didnt only lose by 3 earlier in the year to them. Ditto with SF. Davis did nothing matched up inside. 1 catch for 11 yards as a TE. 2 for 101 and 2 TD split out wide.

    Bottom line, a lot of this wasnt luck, it was scheme. It had some luck mixed in but all good teams do.

    Eh to be fair Jerry Reese inherited a good team from Ernie Accorsi. Jeffy inherited...Fail Foward Fast and Randy Mueller's leftovers. Quite a difference. Ireland just needs to put more emphasis on speed and QB play. If he does that he could do ok.
     
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  30. Roman529

    Roman529 Senior Member

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    JMO....but the Giants just got hot and got on a roll at the right time. They looked pretty average at times during the season, and had the Dolphins not screwed around against the Giants in the 4th quarter, we would have beaten them. They probably would not have made the playoffs without a win against us. With that said, the Giants are still a very solid team because they have nice balance -- Good running game, good passing game, very good wide receivers, solid defense with very good pass rushers. They won the SB because they finally played like a team come playoff time. We just have to find our franchise QB, improve our pass rush, and get some key pieces....but I don't think we are that far off.
     
  31. dsteve

    dsteve Banned

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    Jake Long (HoF talent), Mike Pouncey(unproven rookie, might be good), Anthony Fasano(bum), Reggie Bush(still not an every down back, not used properly. 1000 yards? who cares?), Brandon Marshall (top tier wr), Davone Bess(bum only dolphins fans think is a starter), Kendal Langford(average), Randy Starks(average), Karlos Dansby(came in out of shape, helped to cost us the first 7 games. should be a top 5 MLB), Cameron Wake(a 30 something year old pro bowler. could be better if used correctly instead of just lining him up over the over sized right tackle every play) and Vontae Davis(loud mouth with talent. could be good) as? Not quality football players?so youve got an often injured LT, a rookie center, a glorified 3rd down back, a top WR with no quarterback and an attitude problem, and under performing MLB, and a semi elite pass rusher plus some average to below average parts. now the giants have the best pash rush in the history of the NFL from a d line perspective. id take paul, osi or tuck over any of our defenders at any position and our team would instantly be better. A solid WR core with a legit outside threat, solid slot guy and a work-able number 3 in manningham. sometimesthey get the dropsies but a solid group. two semi decent RBs that give them more than our one half RB and rookie we traded up for but their oline is old....atleast they arent bad like 3/5s of ours. then they have a clutch quarterback that throws for over 3, sometimes 4k a year with 20 plus TDs. if the giants fill some holes on their oline they are a solid team. dolphins need help at WR, RB, QB, DB, both safties and some upgrades on the d line would be nice. you cant list every new player like they were some kind of gift from god and not even mention the failures.
     
  32. BlameItOnTheHenne

    BlameItOnTheHenne Taking a poop

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    Jesus christ. Are you really complaining about a 1,000 yard rusher who averaged over 5 yards/carry last season?
     
  33. MikeHoncho

    MikeHoncho -=| Censored |=-

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    Don't be talking about Black Ninja. You really think Bush sucks? .
     

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