Chris Weinke had similar surgery as Manning; Healed in 7 months & was Stronger

First off never trust any info coming from an agent about the health of their client.
Secondly the doctors are stating facts that have no connection to Manning's personal situation. It is a generalization.

 

Add to that the reality that if Manning's nerve does regenerate, you're still talking about the period of time it will take for him to get back into football shape. I would suspect that if the nerve does regenerate, you still wouldn't see Manning be able to play until at least halfway through the 2012 season. I assume that while his neck is structurally sound, it has to be very weak at this point.

 

That is if he is showing improvement at all. The only people who are saying that Peyton is showing improvement are his agent, his handled doctors, and his close friends. We have a report from two weeks ago from Mike Lombardi, who has no dog in this race, that Peyton can't throw to his left and can't throw it farther than 25 yards.

 

"Former Panthers QB Chris Weinke, who underwent spinal fusion surgery similar to Peyton Manning's, regained 100 percent of his arm strength after seven months.
Comparing his injury to Manning's, Weinke said: "In terms of the similarities between the two, the fusion and the nerve regeneration are exactly the same." Weinke couldn't grip a ball at first and didn't throw "with purpose" for five months. Manning was throwing in December, three months after his surgery, leaving him ahead of Weinke's pace. Although he had to rebuild arm strength from "ground zero," Weinke actually gained velocity post-surgery due to a focus on the "little muscles" in his upper arm.

this is good news & I am very hopeful Manning will lead us to our next SuperBowl very soon.

 

You need a bit of education on this yourself.

First you don't do anything to regenerate the nerve. All you can do is try to figure out what is damaging, remove that and then hope it regenerates sufficiently. The injury two years ago caused some impingement, but nobody can say how much. That's the starting point for damage, but says nothing about how much more damage the nerve suffered since. So the fact that he continued playing well is irrelevant. The first procedure was an attempt to remove the impingement. They thought they were successful, but when the nerve didn't regenerate they tried another procedure. Again, no regeneration. Then they tried the fusion. After any of these procedures you expect to see immediate nerve response, typically in a couple of weeks. That didn't happen. The neck is not fine. The fusion is fine, but the nerve is still not regenerated. All the reports do not say he's looking good, just the reports from his agent and his doctors and some team mates. These are the most prevalent ones so people mistakenly assume that's all there is. The report from Lombardi which was also based on eyewitness reports said he did not look like an NFL QB. The report from the Colts before the SuperBowl said that his strength was inconsistent and that sometimes he could not even grip a football. I investigate worker's compensation cases and I see quite a few of these. They generally fall into two categories. The nerve either regenerates right away and the patient recovers or it doesn't and the doctors don't really know why. Those patients generally have a recovery of at least a year and I've never heard of one that came back fully even after that year. As it was explained to me, that's b/c with more severe nerve injuries you just have to hope that nerve regenerates and makes sufficient connections to regain enough consistent muscle contraction. In the patients I've spoken to, they all complain about their inconsistent strength and control. You hear a lot of stories about being fine one day and dropping drinking glasses on others. This is what we saw from Marino in 99 after his pinched nerve. He would have ratings over 100 one week and a rating in the teens the next. My guess is that right now Manning knows that he can't throw like an NFL QB. I'm sure he's confident and determined and hopeful, but he's being private b/c he has no choice. He could probably put together an edited video showing him throwing well, but he can't schedule a demo b/c he won't know if it will fall on a good day or a bad day. I hope he recovers, but whatever the outcome, I expect that won't be known until August or September. In other words, way after we have to make decisions on FA and the draft.

 

The level of prospect however influences a lot of things though. The mindset of the drafted QB , is he anxious to start , will he make that a distraction , will having a plug and play highly heralded QB mean locker room tension , media driven wedges ? What is the cost Indy gives up by taking a QB at number one that could return a plethora of assets? Is the fan base and more importantly the team ok with not utilizing those in an obvious rebuild mode? What is the point of pointing a couple years down the road when you could prepare for that better than by having both Luck and Peyton?

Peyton may prefer the pick on some other position but it is not the same as the first overall on the most heralded QB since Manning? Aikman? Elway? If he knows that Miami would be active in free agency for those need areas plus using the substantial other draft picks on immediate help , I highly doubt he also would make using pick 8 on a non QB a deal breaker. You think if Miami had to some how pay Indy the 8th pick in the draft for Peyton that Manning would say I won't sign or play for you because I need that pick for a player to help me? I don't.

IMO a minor issue that IF Miami views Tannehill strongly enough , and only so , I believe they certainly contemplate using that pick for Tannehill. I also don't think it sways Peyton away from wanting to play for Miami.

 

The scenarios don't have to unfold that way at all though . You obviously will have to have faith in the recovery and a belief it will happen but you address all movements , actions , acquisitions accordingly and again I doubt signing a QB other than Luck , Griffin or Flynn ( who would cost a lot and take away from options greater that one draft choice ) is any deal breaker for Peyton.

If Miami thinks Flynn is a better option than they will pursue that , I don't believe they will think that though and there are other viable long term solutions than Luck , Griffin or Flynn , be it Tannehill or another QB later this year or in another year. My point is if you have graded Tannehill as great value for 8 you don't bat an eye and show no hesitancy in taking him.

 

I don't believe that is accurate. The reports from the doctors are it is stronger than before and that isn't an issue going forward , that is what I have heard and read fwiw. Not stating it to be true , but the professional opinions have been expressed that way.

 

What is stronger? His fused vertebrae, or the muscles surrounding it?

 

dolfan22:
from your lips to God's Ear, may it be so..
it's SuperBowl time!

 

A dead armed quarterback leading this team to the Superbowl would be a first. Is the memory of Marino's dead arm from 1999 really that distant to this many of you?

 

The vertebrae and neck from the information put out by the medical professionals.

The comments were it is stronger than ever ,that it isn't and should not be any issue , that if Peyton were the son of the surgeon he would recommend he play.

That aspect was pretty clearly addressed as not an issue going forward , again fwiw from the reports of the medical professionals that are dealing with Peyton.

 

Yes, and that references the spine itself, not the rest of his muscles. Nobody is suggesting that he will suffer a spine injury (at least I am not). But he still needs to get his muscles back into football shape once his nerve regenerates.

 

Every time I've heard a doctor make such a statement like that, it's about the vertebrea. Basically, the statement says, "I did my job right". It has nothing to do with neck muscle strength. You'd actually expect some atrophy there, but that's not a big deal. He should be able to recover that easily and quickly enough. The statement also does not refer to the nerve, which is the real issue. The doctor can't heal it or effect it. All he can do is hope like anybody else. That's where everybody is missing the point. The doctor's job is to be optimistic. He needs his patient to be as confident as possible. But the fact is that all he can do is hope. I've seen many cases with nerve damage and I've spoken to multiple health professionals who don't have to pretend to be optimistic and the results tend to fall into two categories. If the nerve responds right away then it usually comes back as good as new. If it doesn't respond right away, the recovery is much longer and almost never 100%. I think it's pretty clear that Manning is in the second category. People don't seem to want to hear it though.

 

I think there is a difference in what the dr. reports are (that the neck is structurally sound) and whether the nerve is regenerated/regenerating period. I think every seems to agree the neck is sound. How that part of the process affects him going forward is not the question. The question is whether or not the nerve regenerates enough so that he can rebuild the muscle structure in the throwing arm and shoulder, and if the nerves are regenerating, how long will it take for the process of regeneration to allow the building of that muscle structure. That's why, several weeks ago, they were reporting that he is 'medically cleared to play ball' and likely that is true. There's a difference in being able to play and being able to play at the level that Manning is accustomed to and that we all expect from him. The question still remains as to how far along is the regeneration and rebuilding of the muscle process and how long will it take him to get to the level that is expected of him and additionally, if he's not going to be where he was prior to the injury, how close to that will he be ? These questions are not public knowledge and whatever we hear about where he is either speculation on a third party's part or from Manning's camp and probably skewed to whoever is leaking the info....

 

glass half full, glass half empty
prefer to believe in the return of the greatest QB ever to play the game, leading Miami to the next SuperBowl
pick up Manning, nail down the future with pick eight on Tannehill
Go Fish!

 

The comment was that the neck was weak , which is different than saying normal strengthening has to occur , at least as I interpret it. Has anything been said that indicates an issue with normal strengthening as opposed to nerve pathways improving?

 

So Marino is coming back at his age?

 

Marino greater than Manning.........ahh thanks for the laughs. I needed that after work on a Tuesday. Fist pump for the comedy relief.

 

Yeah, your comment is coming from a guy that thinks you can rehab away nerve damage.

 

everyone has an opinion
having said that
only a fool would question any Dolphin Icon, Dan Marino was a great QB & Dolphin Icon

Manning/Tannehill in 2012

 

I'm not a dr., but as I understand this injury it's not about normal strengthening...The issue is that the nerves that allow the muscles in the arm and shoulder to rebuild (due to the nerve injury and resulting surgery the muscles have atrophied and have to be be re-built to the point that making all his throws are doable) have not or may not completely regenerate. This is the issue for now and going forward. Many think that a 90% Manning is as good as most NFL QBs...maybe, maybe not but there is almost certainly going to be some loss of nerve regeneration. How much is anyone's guess at this point. The next biggest issue is HOW LONG it will take for this process to complete itself. There's no doubt that Manning is and will do anything humanly possible to get back to where he was. He may yet do that....how long that will take or how long before we know exactly what he's lost is the question...

The gamble for us is two-fold. How much, if any will he lose in throwing capacity and how long will it take to get back to that level? That's the risk in going after Manning.

What gets me questioning going after him is that we haven't heard or seen anything from Manning's camp except what they want us to hear. Where exactly is Manning at this point and why is he keeping it 'under wraps'. Leads to be believe more of the stories that he may not be as far along as other reports are saying... If he were truly well on his way back to being the Manning that is clearly a future HOFer, wouldn't that info be out there by now ???

 

it is what it is we will know soon enough.
my thought on the matter, Manning/Tannehill in 2012
time to bring this chronic QB issue & SuperBowl drought to an end.

 

I find the idea that 90% of Manning, is as good as most QBs to be ridiculous. When Marino came back he was reportedly fully healed. What we got was a QB that was rated 100 some weeks and as low as the teens in others. He also missed 5 games and most of another. The net was a 67 rated QB. I fully expect that if we're stupid enough to gamble an Manning that we'll get a similar type of season.

 

Seems more reports coming now from respected people saying he is throwing better and better.

 

Stupid would be picking Brandon Weeden number 2 overall imo ,and not signing one of the best QB's of all time and backing that up with with a highly skilled , highly athletic QB that was coached by your Offensive Coordinator at 8 .

90% doesn't mean 90% of Peytons smarts , or his hunger or his passion or his work ethic , if , IF he has 90% of his arm strength , personally I am ok with that , and that can get better of course , as Weinke did.

Why the intense aversion to a no cost acquisition for inarguably one of the premier players of all time who doesn't have the history of missing games like Marino and whose legs absolutely haven't gone and who unquestionably prepares as well as anyone ever has? Is it because Ross may spend some money trying to get a true legitimate , viable QB that can beat NE , but has some chance to not heal well enough and Ross loses money? This can be a lower risk course of action than other options . Condon has floated the idea that Peyton would be amenable to a contract not based on a lot of guaranteed money so , no draft choices ,no players to trade ... just the owners cash that could be sizable if the performance is.

Would trading multiple picks to move up to number 2 be a better option? If so , would Griffin be ready to win this year? next? Or is it Flynn who presents the best avenue to take? Maybe he does , and if so then I am sure Miami will do this as Philbin surely will have the influence needed if his conviction is strong enough . If it isn't and Miami pursues Peyton we should believe in Philbin's decision. If Miami goes that direction , I am ok with that too as it tells me what the Coach believes in the most.

 

Because it is revisionist history to claim that Marino struggled that year due to his legs. At the time it was all about the pinched nerve in his neck. And despite reports from practice that he had all that zip back (100%), reports that sound just like the ones we're hearing now, Marino's arm strength was inconsistent and the results were horrid. So it won't matter if Manning is at 90% of arm strength if it is inconsistent. I've spoken to several people about this and this is the norm for injuries that progress and recover like Manning's is.

Second, I don't care about the money, I care about the cap and even a contract that is incentive based may be just as crippling to our salary cap if those incentives are deemed to be likely to be earned. Also if Manning is dictating what players he's bringing with him that cripples our cap further.

Third, I don't believe that the team will still add that young QB in the first and they surely will pass on Flynn. I see both of those as better options than Manning. Even if we do add the young guy now (probably another second or third rounder) we'll have to retrain him to a new system after Manning leaves.

Fourth, because I believe it sets our offense back in the long run. We didn't hire Philbin so that he could come in and install an offense he's not familiar with. It makes no sense to put in a system for Manning for one or two seasons and then start over again. The restart will be, the new system, a new young QB and replacing all the old players Manning wanted to bring with him for his last run.

I believe that signing Manning hurts us now since he will most likely have inconsistent arm strength and have additional complications with the discs above and below the fusion, but also going forward as we set back install of the system and long term QB development plan that we have all wanted for years.

 

Only an idiot would think Manning couldnt adapt to a new coach and offense. It is really that simple. And if you're Worried about Philbin when you have an elite player like Manning looking to come in it is even worse.


Stop listening to the media. If you dont think Manning or his HC can't adapt to each other then you are horribly misinformed. Manning is one of if not the greatest football mind in football history, so to say he can't adapt to a coach or vice versa is just foolish.

 

One of the best posts on this subject that I have read.

The crux to me is the likelyhood that Peyton is going to be nowhere near 100% at any point in the future. However, an additional aspect of this is that by signing Peyton Manning, you effectively take control of the offense away from Joe Philbin and Mike Sherman, who obviously share offensive philosophies, to put in an offense that Peyton is going to want. This will be an offense that neither Joe Philbin nor Mike Sherman have any familiarity with.

To top that off, those that truly feel that Miami will still draft a quarterback in the first round if they take Peyton Manning, which is probably less likely than Peyton regaining all of his arm strength, you would be bringing that guy in and coaching him in Peyton's offense for 2, maybe 3 seasons before you have to spend time coaching him up in the offense that Coach Philbin and Coach Sherman want to run.

 

Have to ask. Who gets the job and starts for us in 2012?

 

If we sign Manning?

Matt Moore.

 

More and more positive news emerges , but of course it really is just planted information , so the actuality of Peyton improving is an illusion.

One thing keeps being swept under the rug , Peyton gives this team the best chance to win big , yes he has to be healthy enough to do that , but contrary to reports that keep surfacing from Peyton's people and non Peyton people that isn't happening we should believe. Just because Weinke was able to recover doesn't mean Peyton can and medicine hasn't improved , and Peyton has no wherewithal to get basically the best medical attention the world. He also has no motivation to speak of and hasn't displayed any competitiveness in the past , no need to bet on him.

This isn't Marino , not the same and thinking it has to follow that script is a mistake imo. The cap can always be addressed and do we set the franchise or offense back if we actually win? Hmmm .... and Peyton has initiated Mooch to bring him up to speed with the WCO , so it appears he is open to some flex type offense and isn't demanding it has to be "his" way.

Bottom line Peyton can make this team win if healthy , some think he never will be and they think we should just ignore this option , some of those people thought Cam Newton wasn't a legitimate NFL QB . When the person who has never been wrong , and has always been right tells all of us that Peyton is officially done then we should listen and pay attention. That person isn't around though , there isn't that person , so there are different views , one will be wrong , one will be right. We'll see which is which. I am glad that I can virtually guarantee Ross isn't being dissuaded by naysayers and will due his and his teams due diligence.

 

what could possibly go wrong? View attachment 1564

 

You have absolutely nothing to base that opinion on and you've lost what little credibility you've tried to build up. Manning has shown that he is more prepared than any QB in the last 20 years, and that can certainly increase his chances of adapting to a new system. but you're being a little overzealous on your assumptions that Manning can adapt to any system, and that's putting it politely. Manning has essentially played in the same system his whole career and obviously done very well within that system. Do I think he can adapt to Philbin's system (assuming he's even healthy enough - which I doubt)? answer is yes. but to call others foolish because your man-crush on Manning refuses to allow you to see the big picture makes your POV fairly worthless.

 

Yes and no. To start no it isn't the same system as they have adapted and changed numerous times. But thats another issue. The main issue is Peyton is the system out of neccesity more than he has to do it his way or the highway. When his coaches are inept and Peyton is a greater mind then they are, they're going to follow him.

Leaders lead and Peyton is a leader. He is so great he literally ran practices. If your coaches are so inept that the QB has to run practices then its foolish for people to spin that and make it a knock on Peyton. No its a positive that a guy is so good, so smart, and so prepared that he can also do a coaches job. It is a negative on a coach.

So give him a coach who knows what he is doing and can lead and Peyton will hop on board. Too much is made in the media that peyton has to run everything his way or else which is a bunch of false claims and assumptions on there part.

 

While that's possibly true, it's also an assumption on your part that he will hop on board with a coach like Philbin. Unless your last name is Manning, you have no more insight into him than the media

 

I think we've seen enough of him to know he will do what it takes to win. He might not just fall in line with Philbin (nor should he) but I think he is going to respect his football mind enough to realize they can benefit from each other.

 

I think that in the above Manning starts the majority of the games, but plays inconsistently and misses about a third of the games.

 

exactly.

 

Snowman, I don't think how Peyton adjusts to what Philbin will want to do is a big issue. I'm sure they'll work together and make it work. I love what Manning does on the field, he's incredible. Reminds me of my youth watching the occasional Colts game I could get and seeing Johnny U doing his thing on the field. But the issue with Manning is not his mind...

The issues with Manning are a) when he will be healthy enough to play again, b) how close to where he was will he be able to get back to (80%, 90%, 100% ??) and c) how long can he do it for (1 game, 8 games, 5 seasons ??).

Also, don't know about being "one of if not the greatest football mind in football history". Don't get me wrong, he's in the discussion, but let's see him re-adjust his game to what Philbin wants to do and become successful in it before we annoint him greater than guys like Paul Brown, Bill Walsh, Tom Landry, Vince Lombardi, Don Shula, Don Coryell, Bill Bellichik (whoa, that name was hard to type out, LOL) etc...Those are some of the true greatest minds ahead of Manning at this point.