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Defending Ireland on St. Patrick's Day

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Fin D, Mar 17, 2012.

  1. Bulldog

    Bulldog New Member

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    The league or the media has a jaded view of them? Do you have some insider knowledge? If so, please share.

    The facts are, the media likes hyperbole and drama. It sells. The Dolphins and their new owner and green GM are their targets right now. I just don't see how an owner who stays out of the way, opens his checkbook freely and wants to win and make money is bad. The same with Ireland. The facts show that Ireland has done a pretty good job when he's been pulling the strings. It's too soon to say he's done great, but IMO, he's doing fine up to this point.

    And how come no one blames the coaching? As I wrote in another thread, Ross pays the salaries, Ireland brings in the talent, and the coaches are supposed to coach them up. So far, the biggest blunder has been the latter. Has any coach of ours in the last 5-7 seasons coached anyone up? Does anyone think that a good coach wouldn't or couldn't get more out of our current roster?
     
  2. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Think of it like this, maybe you're right and maybe Parcells let Ireland do anything he wanted to do. But I ask you honestly, is it so impossible to think that someone like Parcells forced a brand new GM he groomed and hired to find players that fit his mold regardless of that GM's opinion? Is that really beyond all possibility from happening?
     
  3. PSG

    PSG Clear Eyes. Full Hearts.

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    I got your back.
    Agree with everything you just said.
     
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  4. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Eh, just have my eye on him, keep in mind I do think he did a decent job, but there are some things I've noticed I'm none to happy with, perhaps he is taking the wrong approach until proven otherwise
     
  5. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    I appreciate that response. thank you.

    You could very well be right. I honestly don't know. That's my point though none of us do. I, for one, would much rather see negative critiques of Ireland like that, then much of what has gone here...even in this thread.
     
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  6. bbqpitlover

    bbqpitlover Well-Known Member

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    Are you saying Jeff Ireland is the Nfl version of Barack Obama?
     
  7. PSG

    PSG Clear Eyes. Full Hearts.

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    No, it's not.
    I just don't believe that is what happened.
    Ireland was groomed by Parcells, so is it really beyond all possibility the Ireland believes in the Parcells way?
    Look, we've had this pissing match before. You believe in Ireland, I don't. And I don't think either one of us is going to change the others opinion.
    The only person who can do that is Jeff Ireland.
    And as long as he is GM, I will continue to hope he changes my mind, while have very little faith that he will.
     
  8. finyank13

    finyank13 Reality Check

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  9. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    I honestly don't believe in Ireland. All I've ever really said is I don't understand the venomous hate about him, because we haven't had time to evaluate him without Parcells.

    No, it is not out of the realm of possibility to think Ireland believes what Parcells did, since he was groomed by Parcells. But then again, I've seen some things that tell me he has his own ideas too, like Matt Moore for example, that aren't that bad.
     
  10. Section126

    Section126 We are better than you. Luxury Box

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    If Ireland wanted credit for trading to Get Marshall (Parcells would have "never" traded for a Diva WR), then he also deserves the scorn for flipping BM for less than what he paid, while taking a cap hit to trade him.

    Not to mention, the draft pick or money that he will spend to replace Marshall now.

    I reserved judgement, now I am pretty sure that Jeff Ireland is an idiot.
     
  11. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    What if the deal was going to get us 2 2nds, but when news broke of his latest altercation the offer dropped to 2 3rds? You say we automatically walk away and get stuck with a player who may not be playing a good portion of the year? That's smarter to you?

    Or maybe he should have done what you said. Are there GMs that always make the right call 100% of the time?
     
  12. PSG

    PSG Clear Eyes. Full Hearts.

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    But you have no idea if that happened. We don't even have any idea what really happened in that nightclub.
    That's just making up an excuse to defend him.
    And even if it did happen, there's is no reason you can't sit on him and tell Chicago you want the original deal. If you've set your price and 2 2nds, stand by your convictions, don't just cave when the going gets tough.
     
  13. jw3102

    jw3102 season ticket holder

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    This explanation of how Ireland has done since he became the GM four years ago makes a lot for sense than the pro-Ireland premise of this thread. Ireland is a below average GM who wants to take none of the blame for the period Parcells was with the team. Yet, the worst season the Dolphins have had in the last four years was last season, when Parcells had absolutely nothing to do with the team.

    The Dolphins will remain a mediocre to bad football team, as long as Ireland is the GM of the organization.
     
  14. AdamC13

    AdamC13 Well-Known Member

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    The most rational and intelligent post I have seen on Ireland.

    Are you truly a Dolphins fan Finascious D? Isn't the #1 job criteria for being a fan to either overreact by either blaming "all" problems on a player/coach/GM or worship them as a God? To take a sensible approach before passing judgement...WTF? I am left questioning your fanness!
     
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  15. jw3102

    jw3102 season ticket holder

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    The fact is he should never have traded for Marshall in the first place. He gave up two second round draft picks for a player who was a head case with the Broncos, and he obviously remained a head case with the Dolphins. The record of the Dolphins during Marshall's time with the Dolphins was 13-19. He dropped more TD balls than he caught over the last two years and he proved to be exactly what he was in Denver. A player who cared more about his own stats then he did about the overall record of his team.

    I doubt seriously if the Bears ever were going to trade a second round selection, much less two second round picks for Marshall. I know of only one GM dumb enough to do that.
     
  16. Bulldog

    Bulldog New Member

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    BM and his panache for beating women is the reason why we got so little for him. Well, that and his inability to catch a TD pass.
     
  17. Bulldog

    Bulldog New Member

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    Very true, but sometimes you take a chance on talent. That's how this game is played. BM, before he sliced up his arm on a glass table because he "slipped on a McDonald's bag", could catch a ball. Now he's a stone-hands women beater with mental problems.
     
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  18. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

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    The thing is that last year we are not NEARLY as bad if we have a staff who gets it. So many coaching mistakes cost us games. Cameron Wake playing man coverage against Santonio Holmes? Not the fault of Ireland at all, but it still cost us seven points. Ireland has made some mistakes just like every other GM in the league, but I don't even think his non-mistakes have even had a real chance to show yet.

    I'm willing to give him another season or two to see what kind of personnel he acquires.
     
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  19. jw3102

    jw3102 season ticket holder

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    Unfortunately we don't have any choice but to give him another season, because Ross seems infatuated with Ireland. I want nothing more than to be wrong about Ireland and Ross, but neither of them have yet to give me a solid reason to believe that they actually have a clue as to how to build a winning football team. Ross seems to do a lot of talking about what he is going to do in regards to hiring a top quality HC and upgrading the QB position, but so far I am not impressed with the moves this off season.

    I am certainly willing to give Philbin the benefit of the doubt, but based on the statements of Ross after firing Sparano, I certainly expected him to hire a HC with previous head coaching experience. Two weeks ago, the odds makers in Vegas had the Dolphins as the favorites to land Manning. After meeting with Ross and the staff of the Dolphins, Manning basically no longer had any interest in signing with the Dolphins. That tells me about all I need to know in regards to why the Dolphins have not been able to entice the higher profile FA's or top tier head coaches to want to come to the Dolphins.
     
  20. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

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    We were never the favorites to land Manning, he said so himself. Also Ross wasn't at the meeting.

    The only coach with experience available I'd have wanted is Gruden. Once he was off the table you are left with Jeff Fischer (Yuck) as far as experienced coaches go. I think we made a very good move in our HC search. Every single successful HC in the league had a first job. I think Philbin has the tools to succeed and he has Sherman to fall back on for any advice he may need.

    As far as the QB search...minus Manning there isn't anyone available. They can't snap their fingers and make someone trade us a QB or have someone released. We are meeting with Flynn right now...if we can get him at a reasonable price that would be a great move.
     
  21. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    You're right I don't know what happened and neither do you. I admit that, you don't.

    You attack as if you had all the facts. Marshall doesn't really fit the mold of WCO WR or of what Philbin wants in character. He had to go. You have no idea what the original offer was before the news broke. The market for any player is not infinite.

    Like I said, maybe he did screw up. But even if he did, it wasn't the franchise destroying move everyone is acting like it was.
     
  22. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    No one believes that. No one.

    Here's why:

    Your posting history. You don't have open and honest conversations with people on these boards. You don't talk about or even counter the points they bring up. You simply rant about the exact same things, in more or less the exact same order every time. That tells me and everyone else, you're not interested in anything other than your own rhetoric.

    Take the second paragraph of your post. You don't acknowledge or much care that reports are out now that Manning never wanted to join the Dolphins, but that doesn't fit your rant, so you pretend we were favorites in Mannings eyes and we blew it after we met with him. Which of course is not true.
     
  23. Laces Out

    Laces Out Well-Known Member

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    I am truly torn on Ireland. My gut reaction is to say he sucks and he needs to go. But when I think about it more, I tend to forget that he is really learning on the fly and may be too open to unnecessary outside influence. What I do know is there doesn't appear to be a coherent plan in place as evidenced by how Ireland drafts(or is instructed to) due to the above reference influences.

    I think having a HC like Philbin, who comes from a long line of knowing EXACTLY what a team wants and needs to be successful in their system may just what Ireland needs to be successful as well.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  24. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Thank you for showing that one can make a rational observation even if its based on his "gut".
     
  25. Just playing devils advocate here but have you considered that it is likely that Ireland and Parcells share that same mold and thats why BP brought Ireland here. You seem to be placing all the blame on someone other then Ireland and I would submit to you that at the end of the day Ireland shares responsibility good n bad for every aquisition we have made since he was hired as the GM. Even if you are going to discount everything that happened while Parcells was the czar Ireland has not been stellar since BP left.

    Ireland has been mediocre.

    Dez Bryant was a clear miss by him.

    How Ross handled going about hiring harbaugh reflected poorly on Ireland. He should of advised him better oin how to approach that situtaion instead of putting Ross in a postion to embarass himself.

    It appears like he paniced and dumped Brandon Marshall prematurely and for far to less then what he should of been able to get for him.

    If the rumors are true that he wanted Orton and not Moore and we only signed him at the insistence of Ross then you can chaulk that up as another miss by Ireland

    Ireland has had more misses then hits post Parcells. I can certainly understand why there are people who are not happy with the job he has done so far.
     
  26. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

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    Reggie Bush would never play for a Parcells team IMO.
     
  27. Assuming thats true it really does not prove anything. It could simplyu be a case of Parcells challenging his GM to do his homework and convince him the guy is a worthy investment. Parcells has a reputation of being exactly like that. He likes people who fight back with him.
     
  28. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Again, it doesn't matter what Ireland's mold is. He very clearly got players to fit Parcells mold. We have no idea if they share the same view. He might. i dunno, neither do you. That is specifically why I've said over and over and over, there hasn't been enough time to judge Ireland away from Parcells. I'm not sure how people can read that over and over and over and think I'm singing Ireland's praises.

    Or by Parcells. You don't know.

    First of all, I'm not sure Ross handled that wrong. I don't think Harbaugh was coming here no matter how we approached it. Secondly, have you ever advised your boss and your boss still did whatever the hell he wanted? I think it is entirely unrealistic to believe Ireland had any real power in that.

    Maybe. If people arer scared of a suspension coming he may have gotten all they were willing to give. We don't know for sure. But even if it does prove to be a mistake, its a mistake that won't bury us. Its just a WR after all.

    That's a rumor I haven't heard.

    I don't see it that way. I don't see the offseason form last year being all that bad and that's the only one that is post Parcells, other than this one which just started. When this one is all said and done? Maybe how terrible he is will be known. None of us know with enough conviction to say one way or the other.
     
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  29. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    He also has a reputation of someone who demands things be done his way, and quite frankly is more known for that than what you said.
     
  30. Maybe, maybe not. That proves nothing other then that Ireland and Parcells are not identical. They still IMO share very similiar philosphies. Also BP is not a bad football guy. Take a look at his coaching tree. Bellicheat, Coughlin, Payton, they all have rings.

    Look at his track record as well. He made the Jets, the Pats and the cowboys into respectable teams. He also did it in Miami too, to a lesser extent. Say what you will but Miami is a greatly improved team since the Cam Cameron days. He could of did a better job but he does deserve credit for what has been accomplished.

    One really glaring thing they seem to share is the heavy importance they put on the offensive line. They have spent lots of money and lots of high draft picks in assembling this line and its still not a great line and we are still talking about how we may need to draft another lineman with a high pick. IMO Parcells, Ireland, and sporano all share all the responsibility equaly.
     
  31. PhinGeneral

    PhinGeneral PC Texas A&M, Bro Club Member

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    I still disagree though. It wasn't like he was asking for Parcell's permission to do so. He had guys he liked and he made his case for them. It was basically part of his on the job training.
     
  32. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    I guess my question is, how do you know he wasn't asking permission? Does Parcells strike you as the type to let someone draft who they want when his rep is on the line?
     
  33. bran

    bran Senior Member

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    i dont know the talent here was horrendous before ireland came on board. i think ireland has done a good job of getting talent and actually building something
     
  34. Honestly I do not disagree with your post. I only presented alternative ways to look at his performance.


    I never thought you were praising him but I do think you are giving him too much benefit of doubt.


    Perhaps but it seems pretty clear that him and Byrant did not get off to a good start in terms of chemistry toward one another. You just dont ask someone if there mom was a whore in that situtation. Even in the context it was asked it was still inappropiate for him to ask that. It was a bad move for a GM to make when interviewing a prospect that you may be working with in the future. Thats all I meant by what I said.


    I agree with you but thats not what I was critical of him about. We very well may not of had a chance to land Harbaugh. Ireland should of warned Ross about the embarassment that he would face in the media if he went about it they way he did. Now your 2nd point you may be 100% right about and his warning was ignored. The only thing I can say is that nothing has ever leaked out saying Ireland tried to prevent Ross from going after him.


    I agree its not a colossal failure that is going to set the team back decades but in the end it looks like a bad deal to me. I mark it down as a failure on his part.


    Rumors are rumors. Some are true, some are not, and some are part true and part lies, so who knows.


    And I dont differentiate what has happened while BP was here and after him. I tally it all up equally. I credit Ireland for bringing in Pennington, the wildcat, Wake, Dansby, Vonte, Long, Pouncey, etc..... All in all I think Ireland has had sucess and failure here. I think he deserves criticizim and he deserves credit. You seem to be saying the things that happen under BP he had no influence in those decissions and I disagree with that.
     
  35. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

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    Honestly I never wanted Bill Parcells. I think he is completely overrated at talent evaluation and while he had some good ideas and acquisitions, the game had completely passed him by. He choose a HC that set us backwards and without the Wildcat working for one season we never even have a playoff appearance under him.
     
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  36. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    All fair enough.




    I don't think a title automatically brings consequence.

    As a graphic designer I've had to deal with bosses and clients that literally tell me specifically what to do for a given piece. I had a dentist, who didn't like his zip code. So, he made me change it to a different one on his print ad. (I know, I know, that is bat **** crazy). I told him every way that I could that was a bad idea. He didn't care. Now, everything else on the ad I agreed with. Who's fault is it if people show up to his practice...me or him? I built the ad, I used the program, but it was his choices. Why do I have to share that failure?
     
  37. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    yup, sure, sure Ireland gave a 50 million dollar contract with Parcells in the office, thats pretty funny actually, lol..
     
  38. I am also a professional and I have to deal with customers who want to dictate to me what they want (which is fine) sometimes they attach unrealistic expectations to those demands and it is at that point that I walk away from the situtation because I know what they want wont work and if my name is attached to it I will bear the responsibility for the failure. Even though I recommended otherwise I will still be the one thats blamed for installing something that dont work. I'm not discounting what your saying because its possible that Ireland's hands were tied as you suggest and now that BP is out of the picture we will be in a better postion to see him in action with full responsibility for his actions. So far I have not seen him do things much differently then he did when BP was his supervisor. Time will tell I guess.
     
  39. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    That's all I'm saying.
     
  40. PhinGeneral

    PhinGeneral PC Texas A&M, Bro Club Member

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    Yes, because he was hired to build the foundation and specifically wanted Ireland because he trusted his judgment and admired his talent. Even in Dallas there were stories that the two went tooth and nail on some players. In fact, a number of former players like Phil Simms and other associates have said that Parcells tends to respect you more if stand up for what you believe in rather than just play lap dog.

    But in regards to the decision making, here's a story that's been repeated by Parcells himself- When he and Ireland were in their first year here, and it was known that they were shopping Jason Taylor, the Redskin GM (I forget who it was at the time- Vinny Cerato maybe?) phoned Parcells to make an offer. Bill's response was that they should be dealing with Jeff. To me that doesn't sound like someone who wanted all power over the decision making.
     
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