1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Welcome to Miami Mr. Tebow (not official yet)

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by MonstBlitz, Mar 19, 2012.

  1. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

    20,810
    8,965
    0
    Jan 7, 2008
    Hollywood, Florida
    You can be super athletic and have crappy hands though.

    Even at best it would take him SEASONS to develop into a good enough blocker and route runner to have any impact IMO.
     
  2. Laces Out

    Laces Out Well-Known Member

    3,428
    937
    113
    Aug 4, 2011
    Omaha, Ne
    agree to disagree like I originally said.
     
  3. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

    99,377
    37,301
    0
    Nov 22, 2007
    inching to 100k posts
    Eh, I'm one of the few who really does think Tebow can be successful even in the modern NFL, he reminds me of Joe Kapp.

    Except, well, Tebow prays, Kapp would drink fifths of tequila and swear like a sailor who lost their wallet...:lol:
     
    DOLFANMIKE likes this.
  4. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

    20,810
    8,965
    0
    Jan 7, 2008
    Hollywood, Florida
    I'm not trying to devalue your opinion at all. I respect it.

    My point is just that talented and well driven receivers who have played the position their whole lives come into the NFL and need to work on route running still. I played WR growing up on every team I played and route running isn't as easy as some people would like to imagine it is.
     
  5. Laces Out

    Laces Out Well-Known Member

    3,428
    937
    113
    Aug 4, 2011
    Omaha, Ne
    I wasn't trying to insinuate that you were devaluing the opinion.

    Could you explain this further? Because as I understand route running, there is some finesse to it i.e. getting off press coverage, but mostly it is landmarks or holes in zones depending on your read. TIA
     
  6. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

    20,810
    8,965
    0
    Jan 7, 2008
    Hollywood, Florida
    Getting the right depth on your routes isn't easy and can vary by the situation. How many times have you seen a receiver run his route about two yards short of the first down marker on third and long? It isn't because it was a bad play call, it is because the receiver failed to extend his route beyond what it would usually be on the play call. That in itself isn't that bad but it can be difficult when you are also thinking about the things you mentioned such as getting off of press coverage. Also some plays require a WR to make a read as well as the QB. For example your first route option may be to run a curl but if you see the safety does x or y you break off into a short post. If you start to commit to route one and make the read too late there is no changing it most of the time and if you do it will usually lead to an interception.

    The absolute HARDEST thing though is angles. The angle of your route is critical and extremely hard to judge when you are running it. For instance it is easy to slant across the field, but if you ask most people to run a slant route you will notice they run it very flat with little angle to it and think they are doing it perfect. If you run a post route you may have to adjust your angle (flatten it or run it even more angular) based on the positioning of the safety and how the corner plays you.

    Things like that. Then once you get past that stuff there are things like body positioning and catching the ball it it's highest point and not letting it "come to you". On certain routes when you are wide open obviously you can let the ball come to you but it was one of the biggest knocks on Ginn. When he ran a curl or out route he never came back to meet the ball and catch with his hands, he let the ball come to him giving the defender more time to make the deflection.

    I'm not saying Tebow couldn't. I'm just saying it isn't just repetition as in "I'm going to run this pattern the same 1000x in a row" because in reality you have to understand what you will will have to do when the defense does certain things and you may end up running 10 different variations of the route in 10 different plays (especially on deeper passes). Like when you say a TE "found the seam" in a defense. It isn't like he just ran straight even though it may look like that. It may be two yards in or out of where his original route was intended and he adjusted.

    In other words I'm just saying that there are a lot more reads as a WR than people think. It's not always as simple as I'm going to run route x or route y. Sometimes it is, but sometimes not. If it was every WR would be a polished route runner coming out of college.
     
  7. Laces Out

    Laces Out Well-Known Member

    3,428
    937
    113
    Aug 4, 2011
    Omaha, Ne

    I appreciate the breakdown....follow up question, purely for discussion, not an endorsement of Tebow..... would Tebow have a leg up as a former QB and already having to make the same reads or was that beyond his experience level already? TIA
     
  8. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

    20,810
    8,965
    0
    Jan 7, 2008
    Hollywood, Florida
    As far as making reads go I would say yes. I don't think he makes great reads as a QB but the reads as a WR are easier (though still not easy). They are from a different angle as well but the principal is the same.

    Oh the one thing I forgot to say is that it is hard to use landmarks to run routes (such as a certain yard line and then cut) because if your head isn't up you pretty much already lost the battle. A lot of times it is more of a feel thing and your QB knowing where you are going to be. Which is why you hear that certain guys develop chemistry.

    There are several good examples of QB's who became pretty good route runners as college WR's. It can be done. It just takes some time to really develop and he would have to learn to block at the same time as a TE. I think QB to TE is a pretty difficult transition to make once you are in the NFL. I wouldn't mind acquiring him as a TE project but I just wouldn't expect him to contribute as any sort of full time player for at least 2-3 seasons.
     
  9. Laces Out

    Laces Out Well-Known Member

    3,428
    937
    113
    Aug 4, 2011
    Omaha, Ne
    Perhaps landmark was a poor word choice...

    Let me ask it like this, as a WR/TE do they know that x steps=7 yards and run routes accordingly?

    Also, could Tebow use Brad Smith(former QB) as an example?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  10. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

    20,810
    8,965
    0
    Jan 7, 2008
    Hollywood, Florida
    If you have a consistent stride I guess I don't see why not. Eventually you have to do it on your own though because you can't be counting your steps in a game among other things.

    Another thing being that you also have to know when to turn and look for the ball. Good defenders usually read your eyes/head and not your body so if you are turning to look at the QB when he first releases it you can bet the safety is too and has a much better chance of making a play on the ball. There are lots of subtle things like that.

    Smith is a decent example except that I think he is a much different player than Tebow. Smith is a quick shifty guy while Tebow isn't as fast and would need to be a much better route runner than Smith. Part of what makes Tebow such an effective runner is that he does provide a passing threat (even if it isn't a great one) and I can't see him just bowling over NFL defenders at TE the way he does at QB. He will need to use his body positioning and route running to get open where as Smith can use his speed and agility much more.

    I think he can do it. I just think he would need time. You'd have to put him on the field in just obvious passing downs at first probably since I can't imagine he will be much of a blocker right off the bat. I mean I doubt he has ever blocked anyone in his life really.
     
  11. DOLFANMIKE

    DOLFANMIKE FOOTBALL COACH 32 YEARS Luxury Box

    5,403
    4,485
    113
    Mar 22, 2008
    California
    Smith resigns with 49ers.

    Miami is going to bring in Tebow and draft Tannehill or Weeden IMO.

    [​IMG]
     
  12. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

    20,810
    8,965
    0
    Jan 7, 2008
    Hollywood, Florida
    Smith resigns with San Francisco and a little piece of me dies inside. Great day.

    I pray we don't draft Tannenhill. I'd rather them say they want to develop Devlin than draft Tannenhill, and I'm not even joking. You don't spend the #8 pick on developmental QB's which IMO is what Tannenhill is. You need to wait at least three seasons before you can even put Tannenhill on the field and hope for success.
     
    DOLFANMIKE likes this.
  13. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

    20,810
    8,965
    0
    Jan 7, 2008
    Hollywood, Florida
    So I looked it up and Smith hasn't even resigned LOL can we ban this guy? It's just annoying.
     
  14. DOLFANMIKE

    DOLFANMIKE FOOTBALL COACH 32 YEARS Luxury Box

    5,403
    4,485
    113
    Mar 22, 2008
    California
    I'm not sure we can even acquire a QB at this point that could do more for us than Tebow could in terms of winning games. I guess Matt Moore would have the best shot of beating him out, but that wouldnt last. I see all signs pointing to us landing Tim Tebow for a mid round pick. Maybe as high as our Marshall pick, hopefully a 4th or 5th though.

    Alot this Tebow negativity is going to go away when this kid gets some quality coaching and improves his technique. He already has many valuable assets that a good coach can take advantage of, and frankly he's the only player outside of Manning that could turn Miami into a sold out, loud and proud stadium again. Winning takes care of all woes and Tebow is a winner first and foremost.

    [​IMG]
     
  15. DOLFANMIKE

    DOLFANMIKE FOOTBALL COACH 32 YEARS Luxury Box

    5,403
    4,485
    113
    Mar 22, 2008
    California
    check again Dolfan. It's reported by Lombardi on NFL channel right now in fact. 5:28 pm pst

    It was also on an hour earlier.

    I wouldn't jerk your chain like that.

    [​IMG]
     
  16. 54Fins

    54Fins "In Gase we trust"

    4,464
    1,515
    113
    Nov 29, 2007
    over there
    These (not official yet) threads never used to be allowed.
    It sets a bad precedents,IMO.
    OK,I'm done with my little rant but it's (not official yet)
     
  17. MonstBlitz

    MonstBlitz Nobody's Fart Catcher

    21,176
    10,130
    113
    Jan 14, 2008
    Hornell, NY
    You clearly didn't read the first post in the thread.
     
    Alex44 likes this.
  18. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

    20,810
    8,965
    0
    Jan 7, 2008
    Hollywood, Florida
    Well you need to provide a link because google still says NO NEW CONTRACT. Though I doubt we sign him anyway thanks to Garrard.
     
  19. DOLFANMIKE

    DOLFANMIKE FOOTBALL COACH 32 YEARS Luxury Box

    5,403
    4,485
    113
    Mar 22, 2008
    California
  20. Laces Out

    Laces Out Well-Known Member

    3,428
    937
    113
    Aug 4, 2011
    Omaha, Ne
    Let's say you were the guy to coach Tebow up. How would you go about it? Would it be equal parts film study and mechanics sessions? Or would one be more beneficial than the other at this point in his career?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  21. DOLFANMIKE

    DOLFANMIKE FOOTBALL COACH 32 YEARS Luxury Box

    5,403
    4,485
    113
    Mar 22, 2008
    California
    Tough to say not being around him other than he needs to improve his reads and accuracy. He needs to work on faster reads as well, especially in the West Coast. I think his accuracy is his biggest weakness but on the positive side thats not difficult to improve significantly. He has great fakes and footwork, so thats a major plus and he also is elite in terms of escaping pressure.

    He's athletic and smart, there's no reason he can't improve significantly. None of this is anything a good coach can't help him improve. There are hundreds of actitivties / drills that can help with this stuff. Even guys as good as Tom Brady still work on this stuff once they get it down. It should be a constant state of growth. Tom Brady for example still to this day works with the QB coach he had before high school.

    Field drills and film could take care of a great deal of it. It's all about repetition
     
  22. Laces Out

    Laces Out Well-Known Member

    3,428
    937
    113
    Aug 4, 2011
    Omaha, Ne
    Basically, he needs to break himself away from being an athlete who can throw the ball decently and become a QB?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  23. DOLFANMIKE

    DOLFANMIKE FOOTBALL COACH 32 YEARS Luxury Box

    5,403
    4,485
    113
    Mar 22, 2008
    California
    I don't really see it that way as much as I do he needs to model his skill set after a player similar to himself in terms of natural strengths and work on improving all the things he needs to in order to grow as a QB. I think he has a skill set similar to Steve Young and that would be a good guy to model himself after.
     
  24. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

    20,810
    8,965
    0
    Jan 7, 2008
    Hollywood, Florida
    Okay I'm back and I don't want to argue or go back and forth with DolphanMike questioning eachothers intelligence. I'd much rather have a serious conversation.

    Mike, why do you believe he even CAN become more accurate or learn to read defenses better at this phase of his career. Reading a defense is something you can work on but at the end of the day it is usually paired with natural instincts. Instincts I don't see him having at the QB position. I'd take him as a TE PROJECT to work on the next couple of seasons and develop but I just can't see him ever succeeding as a QB. Heart is a great thing to have, but it is only one part of the equation.
     
    Laces Out likes this.
  25. Laces Out

    Laces Out Well-Known Member

    3,428
    937
    113
    Aug 4, 2011
    Omaha, Ne
    Interesting comparison......thanks for the breakdown!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
    DOLFANMIKE likes this.
  26. Laces Out

    Laces Out Well-Known Member

    3,428
    937
    113
    Aug 4, 2011
    Omaha, Ne
    I don't mean to speak for Mike, but I think that Tebow's a smart enough guy to pick it up with the proper instruction.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
    DOLFANMIKE likes this.
  27. DOLFANMIKE

    DOLFANMIKE FOOTBALL COACH 32 YEARS Luxury Box

    5,403
    4,485
    113
    Mar 22, 2008
    California
    Because at this stage in his career he is only beginning. He is way ahead of where Alex Smith was going into his third season in many ways. Look at how much Smith improved under the right coaching.

    Learning a read progression is something young kids learn so why couldn't Tebow? Of course he can. Especially if he has good coaching. The same is true with accuracy. He showed improvement there already as the season moved on. His playoff game against Pittsburgh was a great example of that. His TD winning throw, etc.

    Not many QB's at the same point in their careers have had a better start than Tebow. Most the ones who have are in the Hall of Fame.

    To me, if he just improved his accuracy alone between now and this seasons start he'd be the best option by far for us as a QB (post Manning signing with Denver). Sherman and Philbin should be more than able to get that much done.

    Also, Tennehill may well be gone by pick 8, although I can't believe thats actually true. However, if my choice is Tebow to start or Weeden, I'll take the younger Tebow by a mile with our coaches working with him all off season. Moreover the pick it would have taken to reach for Weeden (likely 8 overall) could be used on another player that can start day one and make us better.

    Tebow and a stud rookie at #8 overall make us way better than Weeden or even Tannehill at #8 overall.
     
    Laces Out likes this.
  28. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

    20,810
    8,965
    0
    Jan 7, 2008
    Hollywood, Florida
    I disagree with that. Alex Smith struggled because the 49'ers tried to install the Air Coryelle offense around him in his second season which is based upon vertical passing. He was never ready to start year one just like Tebow wasn't but Smith always displayed great short to intermediate accuracy. The 49'ers tried to build an offense around his flaws for some strange reason, choosing to go with a vertical attack when that was NEVER his strength. Denver built an offense AROUND Tebow. You can bet if they tried to run an offense that opposed his greatest strength (running the ball) he would have floundered terribly. In Smiths third season he played through a shoulder injury that required surgery and in his fouth again they went with a vertical based Mike Martz offense. There is no comparison to be made at all between them success or style wise.

    Also little kids don't learn to read NFL defenses so I don't see how that is the same at all.

    Also how did he improve as he went? His last three regular season games his completion percentages were 50%, 45% and 24% respectively. He actually got worse.
     
    Laces Out likes this.
  29. Laces Out

    Laces Out Well-Known Member

    3,428
    937
    113
    Aug 4, 2011
    Omaha, Ne
    Playing devil's advocate here.....

    Since you brought up that kids learn read progressions, isn't that all the more reason to stay away from projects at the professional level? Shouldn't QBs come to this level with more polish, and only work on honing their skills to a razor's edge to slit the other teams throats?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
    Alex44 likes this.
  30. DOLFANMIKE

    DOLFANMIKE FOOTBALL COACH 32 YEARS Luxury Box

    5,403
    4,485
    113
    Mar 22, 2008
    California
    We will never know if that is why Smith struggled or not. A lack of success in one doesnt man he would have been successful in another.

    As for what kids are taught, a real coach (not a dad coach) is going to teach the start of read progressions, same is true in high school. A coach will teach how to identify 1 deep and what that might mean as opposed to 2 deep and what that might mean. These are the building blocks for teaching read progression.

    Tebow won 8 games and played well in the Pittsburgh playoff game after the games you mentioned. I don't think stats are the only way to evaluate a player. Where does making winning plays fit in there. Are you saying that Tebow didn't have a significant role in winning those games? Of course the Denver Defense was great, but they aren't the only thing that won all those games. Tebow was a huge part of it and thats why fans went nuts with him at the helm. I have no problem with folks criticizing Tebows game, but often times I see people overlooking all the great things he did. I remember after the Steelers playoff win all the reporters were saying "I was wrong about Tebow" and "he has really proven that he is the real deal". Then he and the Broncos get beat in every aspect of the next game and well all forget what he did and what was said. It's kind of fickle but thats how life in the NFL is and exactly why he has to improve his game, just like any other young player.
     
    Laces Out likes this.
  31. DOLFANMIKE

    DOLFANMIKE FOOTBALL COACH 32 YEARS Luxury Box

    5,403
    4,485
    113
    Mar 22, 2008
    California
    I think your point is valid and exactly why there is so much discussion on guys like Cam Newton, Tim Tebow, Vince Young, Mike Vick, etc when they come out with those types of skill sets. However, some of those players listed were doubted in much the same way Tebow is and they turned out ok. Others didn't.
     
    Laces Out likes this.
  32. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

    20,810
    8,965
    0
    Jan 7, 2008
    Hollywood, Florida
    The fact that when his team finally built a plan around him he had success.....yes that shows me that there were reasons for his lack of success early. It's the same as if Denver asked Tebow to throw the ball 50 times a game. He would have fallen flat on his face.

    There is absolutely no way that Tebow doesn't know the basics of how to read a defense. My point is that he obviously can't. I mean are you telling me that in his two years in Denver and four in college no-one has tried to teach him how to read coverages? It is obvious he simply can't apply it to the field. There is nothing wrong with that and it doesn't make him a bad person. It makes him a bad quarterback.
     
    Laces Out likes this.
  33. DOLFANMIKE

    DOLFANMIKE FOOTBALL COACH 32 YEARS Luxury Box

    5,403
    4,485
    113
    Mar 22, 2008
    California
    I'm sure he is learning new reads and new coverages in the NFL. The game is also moving alot faster. It's a learning process and exactly why Rookies don't typically step in and play well enough to start right off the bat. If he's a bad QB then how did he take a losing franchise and win 8 games, win his division, and play a great game in the NFL playoffs and knock Pittsburgh out of the playoffs?

    You are entitled to your opinion. I heard the same things said about Vick, Newton, and many others that have proven otherwise.

    [​IMG]
     
    Laces Out likes this.
  34. Laces Out

    Laces Out Well-Known Member

    3,428
    937
    113
    Aug 4, 2011
    Omaha, Ne
    Hold on a second.....I didn't watch much UF football, but I believe Tebow had a VERY simple high low read system set up in college, and a lot of the pass game was set off the read option/QB power game.

    With that being said, the NFL is infinitely more intricate than a high low read. Even Peyton "I and a GOD amongst mortals" Manning struggled mightily in his first few years, and he had vast amounts of experience with read progression. Tebow went from addition to calculus for all intents and purposes and did a little below average. Is that an indicator of his ability to understand it? Possibly...but I think it reflects more poorly on the staff(s) that prepared him than it does on the player.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  35. DOLFANMIKE

    DOLFANMIKE FOOTBALL COACH 32 YEARS Luxury Box

    5,403
    4,485
    113
    Mar 22, 2008
    California
    Florida ran the run emphasis spread offense under Urban Meyer and it was alot like our old Wildcat scheme. Not exactly the same but it was what many High School teams model their run based spread schemes after. It was not a pass first offense IMO. I've been to many of Urban Meyer's clinics over the years in Vegas and So Cal.

    You are spot on with your comments about reads.

    [​IMG]
     
    Laces Out likes this.
  36. Boik14

    Boik14 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    75,121
    37,639
    113
    Nov 28, 2007
    New York
    FWIW, Schefter says we are out and ESPN NY says the Jets are pursuing Tebow. My guess is that Sparano wants the Wildbow...

    Two sources have confirmed to ESPN New York that the Jets' interest in Tim Tebow has "intensified."
    The Jets have reportedly gone from "lurking on the periphery of the trade talks" to in the thick of them. A team source confirmed to ESPN New York the potential move would at least in part be an effort to heal the Jets' fractured locker room. "Bringing in a guy like (Tebow) would help," the source said. "It makes perfect sense." In reality, adding a polarizing personality like Tebow could serve to further divide Gang Green, and would certainly put even more pressure on embattled starter Mark Sanchez. A league source has also confirmed to ESPN's Adam Schefter the Dolphins are "not likely" to make a move for Tebow. - Rotoworld/ESPN NY
     
  37. Laces Out

    Laces Out Well-Known Member

    3,428
    937
    113
    Aug 4, 2011
    Omaha, Ne
    Gents, it has certainly been a refreshing and stimulating conversation. Hope to see more civilized conversations like this in the future!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  38. DOLFANMIKE

    DOLFANMIKE FOOTBALL COACH 32 YEARS Luxury Box

    5,403
    4,485
    113
    Mar 22, 2008
    California
    You left off the first paragraph in that article -
    "Teams that have discussed a trade for quarterback Tim Tebow, either internally or with the Denver Broncos, include the Jacksonville Jaguars, Green Bay Packers, Miami Dolphins and New York Jets, a league source told ESPN NFL Insider Adam Schefter."

    I liked this in the article too:
    Tebow Good For Red Zone Plays

    Wherever Tim Tebow ends up, he can help teams finish drives. In 70 red zone plays with Tebow at QB last season, the Broncos scored 20 touchdowns, or just over 28 percent of their red zone plays.


    Highest TD percentage in red zone
    By QB, last 2 seasons*



    Broncos

    Tim Tebow

    28.6



    Jaguars

    David Garrard

    27.2



    Colts

    Peyton Manning

    25.7



    Packers

    Aaron Rodgers

    25.7



    Patriots

    Tom Brady

    24.6


    Tebow's base salaries for the next few seasons are very cap friendly: $1.942 million in 2012, $2.266 million in 2013 and $2.590 million in 2014.

    [​IMG]
     
  39. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

    72,252
    43,684
    113
    Nov 27, 2007
    You realize you can make that statement and include any team and probably not be wrong. Hell a team can actually say they would never, ever, ever trade for Tebow, and that statement you quoted would be true.

    This my warning people, read your news carefully.
     
  40. Boik14

    Boik14 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    75,121
    37,639
    113
    Nov 28, 2007
    New York
    Thats cause if you read the tidbit I posted it implicitly says the Dolphins are NOT interested in teblow but the Jets are. Which is almost ideal. Ill take Tebow, just not at QB.
     

Share This Page