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Jerry Jones, Charley Casserly and Gil Brandt come to defense of Ireland and Ross

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Onehondo, Apr 6, 2012.

  1. Clipse

    Clipse mediocrity sucks

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    You'd be surprised how many people didn't turn on Henning and Sparano until their final year.
     
  2. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

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    There are 22 starters and only one first round draft pick. In two drafts there is absolutely no way you can say what Ireland does or doesn't believe in.

    In 2010 we picked Odrick but there was absolutely no-one else worth picking at our slot. Who would you have taken at #28? Even at our original pick the only player I wanted was Earl Thomas. WEAK WEAK draft.

    In 2011 we drafted Pouncey who looks like he could be an All Pro center for many years to come.

    In the 2011 draft there were only six centers taken PERIOD. There are 32 NFL teams and one starting Center on each. A great center is EXTREMELY tough to come by and when you have the shot at one you definitely take it. Which of the other five available centers in the draft would you have passed on Pouncey for and asked to start day one for us after selecting them in the late rounds. Late round starters are EASY to find after all.
     
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  3. Clipse

    Clipse mediocrity sucks

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    I already did the numbers on Left Tackles on Superbowl teams. I'll do the numbers on Centers, but seeing you mention the starting Centers for the Bills and Browns doesn't get my hopes up.
     
  4. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    techno really boomed in popularity.
     
  5. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

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    Those superbowl numbers mean absolutely nothing. There is no right or wrong way to build a team so long as you have results. If it was as simple as just saying "This team used pick X on this position in Y round but not these other positions" every team would do it. Hell New England is on that list and they have absolutely pooped the bed the last few years in the draft. Should our philosophy be to poop ourselves to be like them? Of course not. They have made great decisions in other areas and have a great system in place.

    There are only two superbowl teams each year. They aren't the only great teams though and their recipe for success isn't the only one.
     
  6. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    yeah, a Bills team whose interior line was tremendously responsible for their rushing success and over 5.0 ypc between their 2 running backs, as well as their early year win success before injuries really took a tole. You really don't know much do you after making such a random, blind statement like that.
     
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  7. Clipse

    Clipse mediocrity sucks

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    And every Superbowl team has one thing in common. Quarterback. So yes, there is a right and wrong way to build a team. If it doesn't include a Quarterback, it's the wrong way. 9 straight Superbowls won by a Franchise QB. 18 of the last 21 Superbowls won by a franchise QB. 28, I repeat, 28 straight Superbowls won by a QB with a pro bowl on their resume. It's not coincidence.
     
  8. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    you mean like how the Patriots used a 1st on a LT in 2011 and a 1st on an interior lineman (Mankins)?

    or are you referring to the SB Steelers who used a 1st on center, Pouncey?.... or do you mean the SB Steelers in general who've spent 5 1st rounders on Oline since '92?

    ... or maybe you're referring to the Packers who just used back to back FIRST ROUNDERS on OT. They're a SB team, right?

    ....or maybe you're referring to the Colts using their 1st AND 2nd rounder on OT the year before drafting Peyton.... and then last year AGAIN using their 1st & 2nd rounders on OT.

    ...or perhaps you're referring to how, during a 4 year period, the Packers used THREE 1st rounders on OT & OG for Brett Favre.

    ...or maybe how the 13-3 49ers used both of their 2011 1st rounders on G & T.

    .... or the 49ers using a 1st rounder on a tackle, Harris Barton, to protect Montana. I seem to recall a SB involved there.

    The Ravens won a SB a few years after using a #4 pick on LT, Jonathan Ogden.

    The Rams won a SB after using a #1 overall pick on left tackle, Orlando Pace.

    Bills and 1st round tackle, Will Wolford, went to 3 SBs together..... 2 SBs with 1st round guard, John Fina...... then subsequently used a #14 pick on 9 time Pro Bowl guard, Ruben Brown.

    The Bears used a #6 and #11 pick on OT in a 3 year period ('81-'83) shortly before their '84 SB season.

    In the 4 years before drafting Marino, we used 1st rounders on G & T.... and 2nd rounders on C & G. Are you also referring to that?

    The Giants won 2 SBs from '87 to '91. During that period ('88-'89) their first TWO picks in each draft were on OT (2), OG, and C...... and also used an '84 1st rounder on OG. That's 4 first rounders on Oline in a 6 year period for a highly successful Giants team.



    Your argument is flawed beyond belief.
     
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  9. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

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    The word Franchise gets thrown around so much that I'm not even sure I know what it means. Like I said there are 32 teams in the NFL and in this case each has only one starting Quarterback.

    If you use the term to mean Top 25% of starting QB's that gives you 8 franchise guys in the NFL that seems too many. How do you define below that tier of guys? Big Ben is a great example. I would consider him above-average borderline great, not franchise. If Eli Manning falls short of his two miracle Superbowls his body of work doesn't scream Franchise. I would argue that winning a Superbowl is what MAKES people call you a franchise QB most of the time rather than being a franchise QB going in (unless you repeat)

    Name me eight guys you consider FRANCHISE. We can move from there.
     
  10. Clipse

    Clipse mediocrity sucks

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    So after having already proved that elite teams don't need to draft Left Tackles 1st overall like we do, as only 2 first round LT's have started on the last 14 Superbowl teams. I'll do the honors again, this time digging a little further.

    Giants - David Baas (2nd round, 33rd), Shaun O'Hara (UDFA), Dusty Zeigler (6th round, 202nd
    Patriots - Dan Connolly (UDFA), Dan Koppen, (5th round, 146th), Damien Woody (1st round, 17th)
    Packers - Scott Wells (7th round, 251st)
    Steelers - Maurkice Pouncey (1st round, 18th), Justin Hartwig (6th round, 187th pick), Jeff Hartings (1st round, 23rd)
    Saints - Jonathan Goodwin (5th round, 154th)
    Colts - Jeff Saturday (UDFA)
    Cardinals - Lyle Sendlein (UDFA)
    Bears - Olin Kreutz (3rd round, 64th pick)
    Seahawks - Chris Spencer (1st round, 26th)
    Eagles - Hank Fraley (UDFA), Jamaal Jackson (UDFA)
    Panthers - Jeff Mitchell (5th round, 134th)
    Bucs - John Wade (5th round, 148th pick)
    Raiders - Barret Robbins (2nd round, 49th)
    Rams - Andy McCollum (UDFA)
    Ravens - Mike Flynn (UDFA)

    Center is such an important position, that not only has just one been drafted in the top half of the draft since 1997, but only 4 1st rounders have started on the last 26 Superbowl teams compared to 8 UDFA's. Yes, Center is so important that the elite teams would rather place UDFA's on their line than first rounders.
     
  11. Clipse

    Clipse mediocrity sucks

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    Tom Brady
    Drew Brees
    Aaron Rodgers
    Ben Rothlisberger
    Matthew Stafford
    Peyton Manning
    Phillip Rivers
    Eli Manning

    That was easy. Now throw in Matt Ryan, Cam Newton, Tony Romo, and Joe Flacco as well for good measure. Jay Cutler will prove to be one of those this year as well, if anybody didn't think he was already.
     
  12. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    So you're just gonna all the way to big fat lair now. My god man, the facts are in this thread. We've quoted what you said. Be a man.
     
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  13. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    GTFO here. All the whining and complaining you do about Long instead of Ryan will NEVER turn Matt Ryan into an Aaron Rodgers, Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Drew Brees, Matthew Stafford, Eli Manning, Andrew Luck, John Elway, Dan Marino, Troy Aikman, Joe Montana, Steve Young, Brett Favre type of FRANCHISE QB you expect to get with a #1 overall pick.

    In fact, Matt Ryan would likely be considered a disappointment as a #1 pick b/c he is not elite nor does he display the ability to potentially become elite, and he's displayed no ability to carry his team in the post season like you'd expect from a #1 overall pick.

    Heck, the guy wasn't even considered a legit #1 pick. You act like Miami wimped out and passed on an obvious #1 overall QB like Manning or Luck.
    It was the #1 overall pick involved. If you're not sold 100% on the QB being your guy, you don't freakin take him just to take him, especially not when $70 million is involved, duh. Try and understand the difference between taking your chances on a late 1st, 2nd, or 3rd rounder compared to a #1 pick.

    Plus, don't forget 2008 was after a slew of #1 pick QBs either busted or didn't seem to be living up to the bill.
    2007- JaMarcus Russell
    2005- Alex Smith
    2002- David Carr
    1999- Time Couch

    That's 4 [seeming at the time] bust #1 pick QBs in 10 years. And none of this takes into account that he would've had terrible protection and not much at WR to throw to. Matt Ryan hasn't become elite in a great situation like Atlanta but you think he would've been successful here? :huh: _________ :lol:
     
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  14. Clipse

    Clipse mediocrity sucks

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    The facts are certainly in this thread. I'll point them out again for you in case you missed them.

    9 straight Superbowls won by a Franchise QB. 18 of the last 21 Superbowls won by a franchise QB. 28, I repeat, 28 straight Superbowls won by a QB with a pro bowl on their resume.

    Only 2 first round LT's have started on the last 14 Superbowl teams.

    Only 4 1st round centers have started on the last 26 Superbowl teams compared to 8 UDFA's.
     
  15. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

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    Rivers, Stafford, and Big Ben IMO are not Franchise QB's. I'll give you the other five, and only Manning BECAUSE of his Superbowl success not his body of work. I might give you Rivers but even if I do he is the PERFECT example of a QB not being the only needed piece to win. If an elite QB makes a team and Rivers is in fact elite his team should be much better right?

    Cam Newton still needs to prove himself. Matt Ryan has been "above average", Tony Romo is a choke artist and Joe Flacco has had one great year and even Raven fans aren't 100% happy with him. Jay Cutler? Not even going to justify that one with a response.
     
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  16. Clipse

    Clipse mediocrity sucks

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    :lol:

    Rivers, Stafford, and Big Ben not franchise QB's. Nothing else to discuss here. What's next, you'd rather have Matt Moore or Garrard over them? Good stuff.
     
  17. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

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    No, they are called "great"

    By your standards half the league has a franchise QB. Just because a QB is great doesn't make him a franchise QB. You use the term as loosely as to mean a capable passer who is of great value to his team. My standards are a lot more strict than that.
     
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  18. Clipse

    Clipse mediocrity sucks

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    A great QB is a franchise QB as far as I'm concerned. Any QB that you can build your franchise around, is a franchise QB. That's what the meaning "Franchise Player" is supposed to be. You must be confusing elite with great. Who knows. Or have some incredibly high standards if you don't think a QB that put up over 5,000 yards and 41 TD's last year is a franchise QB.
     
  19. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Ahh, I like how you switch it from 1st round linemen to #1 overall linemen in order to fit it to your ever changing and ridiculous argument. I like how you also reduced it to SB winning teams only. So apparently teams aren't successful if they don't win a SB?

    How many SB teams end up with the #1 overall pick? hmm? :lol: ....... or how many SB teams had a #1 overall pick in the recent years prior? You'd have to prove that for your argument to have any meaning.



    Your list is ridiculous. An offensive line isn't comprised of only 1 position, so your effort to reduce it down to "1st round centers" has zero meaning. There are 5 guys on the line in case you didn't know, and they operate as a unit. :wink2: It's not about how good one is but how good they are as a unit, and there's no specific path to take to build a solid unit. Teams don't have to have five 1st rounders or Pro Bowlers at every Oline position. The bottom line is great teams DO in fact spend 1st rounders on linemen to help secure a good unit, and I've given a long list of examples, so for you to complain about us using 2 first rounders over a 4 year period is complete nonsense. By your moronic belief the Packers must be the biggest bunch of idiots around to use back to back 1st rounders on Oline. :001_rolleyes:
     
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  20. Clipse

    Clipse mediocrity sucks

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    I mentioned 1st overall because that's what we did. The argument is about first round linemen in general, and how having the best Left Tackle in the league has resulted in back to back to back losing seasons. I took those numbers out of a different thread. I find it funny you bring up 1st overall instead of refuting the obvious argument being made. Clear indicator that as usual, I win. You can't refute those facts. First round Left Tackles don't win Superbowls.

    Of course it's ridiculous. Afterall, it proves you wrong, per the usual. Now had I done the reserach and it showed, 11 first round picks. You'd be rejoicing about how important centers are. Again, I win. Elite teams find their starting OL out of the 1st round, because linemen are easily interchangeable. I also like how you mentioned the Packers. When we get an Aaron Rodgers, Jermichael Finley, Greg Jennings, Jordy Nelson, Clay Matthews, and those CB's that they've had, then we can start talking about taking lineman high. That's why they're elite and we're not. That's why the Steelers are elite, and the Browns with Joe Thomas and Alex Mack aren't.
     
  21. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    How many QB's that you say Ireland passed have won the SB?

    And what in the hairy hell does this have to do with steady stream crap you've been spewing in this thread?

    I have no intention of just forgetting that you refuse to acknowledge you were wrong about Parcells/Ireland so far.
     
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  22. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    I'll add (in blue) to the facts of the facts you're "trying" to convey but are failing to......
     
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  23. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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  24. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    look above buddy, my previous post. :wink2: As usual, you didn't win anything but a handful of poop.
     
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  25. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Number of times a 1st rounder started in a SB the past 20 years

    offensive tackle: 26
    wide receiver: 25

    What were you saying about 1st round tackles, R&R?
     
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  26. Clipse

    Clipse mediocrity sucks

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    2 first round left tackles starting for the last 7 superbowls. It's great that 1st round tackles were starting in the 80s and 90s. Too bad we live in 2012.

    You'll start to change your tune when Jake Long leads us to our 4th straight losing season. I'll keep a spot on the Barkley bandwagon reserved for you also.
     
  27. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    name who you think are currently the top 10 teams in the NFL.... in order.


    ......and name who you feel are the top 8 organizations/teams of the past 5 years.
     
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  28. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Playoff teams and 1st round linemen

    -3 of 4 AFC/NCF Champ participants featured at least 2 first round linemen (for a combined total of 8 first rounders).
    -5 of 12 playoff teams featured at least 2 first round linemen each.
    -6 of 12 playoff teams featured 1st round left tackles.
    -an additional 3 teams used a 1st on a LT who has initially begun at RT.
    -so suck it


    Pats (2): RT, LG.(Solder was drafted to be future LT)
    Ravens (3): LT, RT, LG. (Oher was drafted to be a LT)
    Bengals: RT (Smith was drafted to be a LT)
    Texans: LT
    Broncos: LT
    Steelers: C

    49ers (3): LT, LG, RT (wow, that 13-3 San Fran team has 3 first round linemen. Those idiots!@!) :shifty:
    Falcons: LT
    Lions (2), LT, RT.
    Saints: -
    Packers (2): (Just used back to back 1st rounders on 2 left tackles, Bulaga & Sherrod).
    Giants: -

    All total, there were 17 1st round linemen on 12 playoff teams..... plus and extra 10 2nd rounders.



    only an ignoramus would say that an elite left tackle is the cause for 4 straight losing seasons. How many more playoff games has Ryan won than Long?
    Nah, your Barkley bandwagon is for embarrassing losers who need to be taken out back and shot..... then dumped in a pit and crapped on...... and then buried up to their necks while hanging onto their last breath, only to have a slew of Jet & Pats fans pinch their noses and mouth hump them till suffocation. :up:
     
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  29. Clipse

    Clipse mediocrity sucks

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    Pats - Franchise QB.
    Ravens - Franchise QB.
    Texans - Franchise QB.
    Steelers - Franchise QB.

    Falcons - Franchise QB.
    Lions - Franchise QB.
    Saints - Franchise QB.
    Packers - Franchise QB.
    Giants - Franchise QB.

    For comparison's sake I'd like to see you include every team in the league. I'm guessing all the non playoff teams will have just as many 1st rounders on the line as the playoff teams.

    I never said Jake Long was the cause for 4 straight losing seasons. But we sure aint winning with him that's for sure. Put 5 first rounders on the line. Doesn't matter. Will still fail to make the playoffs. You don't win without a franchise QB. That's all there is to it. Until Ireland finds one, he'll continue to get laughed at by every NFL fan for the terrible job he does as an NFL GM. Just too bad we can't get you a job in the Patriots front office. We could use someone with your philosophy to go in there and trade Tom Brady, Welker, and Gronkowki for Jake Long and Mike Pouncey.

    The Miami Dolphins. Where we draft million dollar linemen to block for 2 cent QB's! Causes losing seasons but who cares because our fans are content with mediocrity! Should use that as our slogan.
     
  30. Clipse

    Clipse mediocrity sucks

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    Did the numbers. It's 27 first round lineman starting on the 20 non playoff teams. That's 1.35 linemen per team. That's 27% of total starting linemen. 16 starting first rounders on 12 playoff teams. That's 1.33 linemen per team. That's also 27% of the starting linemen. So looks like my suspicions in the above post were true. Playoff teams and non-playoff teams have damn near the same exact ratio of first round starters on their lines. So what does that mean? Well it means exactly what I've been saying. Franchise QB's win games. The vast majority of teams in the playoffs have them. The vast majority of teams who didn't make the playoffs don't.

    Not sure why you would mention playoff teams without comparing to non-playoff teams. Didn't they teach you Scientific Method in middle school? Of course, the next step would be comparing QB's. "Franchise QB" is a subjective term however, so that wouldn't work. And you have a much different opinion on what a franchise QB is than I do.
     
  31. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Which franchise SB winning QB did Ireland pass on?

    Oh wait, lemme guess, you're going to say you never said Ireland passed on a SB winning franchise QB and your point is really about how apples are delicious.
     
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  32. Jcouch1021

    Jcouch1021 New Member

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    So are we disregarding the rest of the team or are we jut basing it on o line and qb to win us a Super Bowl? :confused1:
     
  33. Bulldog

    Bulldog New Member

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    Have you ever thought that the team surrounding a decent to good QB can make that QB "franchise"?

    Tom Brady- One of the best O-lines and defenses in the league over the past decade.

    Big Ben- A defense and running game like no other since he's has been there

    Flacco- DEFENSE

    Ryan- Running game, WR's galore

    I could go on, and even dispute some of your so called "franchise QB's, but I won't. The bottom line is, yes, you need a good QB to win. However, he can't and won't, do it all by himself. Long was the best pick for us that year. You can sit there and say that Ryan should have been the pick, but Ryan, with the stability and talent he has in Atlanta hasn't won squat. What makes you think he could have won anything here?
     
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  34. Clipse

    Clipse mediocrity sucks

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    Ah yes. Build the team around mediocre QB talents like Matt Moore. I mean, it worked so well with Jay Fiedler, Chad Henne, A.J. Feeley... You don't build teams around ****ty QB's. We've been trying to do it for 13 years and all it has led to is 11 straight years without a playoff win.
     
  35. Clipse

    Clipse mediocrity sucks

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    The rest of the team is what the record says they are. 6-10 caliber. It will continue to be that with Matt Moore as our savior.
     
  36. Clipse

    Clipse mediocrity sucks

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    Matt Ryan. Franchise QB. Ah excuse me. I keep forgetting. Ireland was only collecting a 6, perhaps even 7 figure salary to bring Parcells coffee when that selection was made. At least even Parcells can admit what a dumb decision that was. That's saying a lot with his massive ego.
     
  37. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Now you think Matt Ryan has won the SB?

    And you've been told over and over, Ireland wanted Ryan his boss wanted Long. Before you say "Link?". I want you to post one that proves Ireland had autonomy with player acquisitions and didn't have to follow Parcells blueprint or was never overwritten by Parcells.

    In fact, we are all waiting on you to produce that evidence. I suggest before you post anything else, that you prove this stuff. No, I dare you to prove it.
     
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  38. Clipse

    Clipse mediocrity sucks

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    I said he was a franchise QB. I didn't realize it required you to win a SB within 4 years to be a franchise QB. Looks like we're going to have to revoke Franchise status from Peyton, Rodgers, and Brees. I hope your taking notes Matthew Stafford. You have one more or else those 41 TD's 5,000 yards will all be for naught. You won't be a franchise QB. After all, we have a certain individual who doesn't think you're one already...

    You've told, but yet you can't provide a link. Like I said, I'd love to see it so you and Todd can criticize your most favorite GM in the history of ever since Matt Ryan is an average player and not a franchise QB according to you guys... I don't need to prove anything. Because if Ireland wasn't making decisions, he was collecting paychecks for absolutely nothing and should be out of a job. Either he was useless. Or he was useless. Why is he making 6, 7 figures again?
     
  39. Two Tacos

    Two Tacos Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Ryan only slightly out played Moore, that with the team he had, being in the same offense for years, and getting starter snaps through out the preseason. This is such a weird argument at times. You really think Ryan is all that, why?

    Here is what Parcells said about Long vs Ryan.


    http://espn.go.com/blog/afceast/post/_/id/27893/parcells-does-not-regret-drafting-jake-long

    vs
     
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  40. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    I clearly asked you what franchise SB winning QB has Ireland passed on. You said Ryan.

    You provide a link, Sport. C'mon, man up.

    Tell you what I'll show you what one looks like.

    Here's Parcells taking responsibility for not only Long over Ryan but Pat White too.

    Link

    There you go. The great Fupa himself takes blame for the crap you're blaming on Ireland. Now either apologize for wasting our time or stick to the rants forum were your brand of bull**** belongs. You are the type of poster that hurts this site.

    You've been owned so bad in this thread that 100 years from now your descendants will get reparations.
     
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