Wait a minute here, We're not gonna have this argument again are we.

Perfectly put!

How many elite DEs have we seen on bad teams? Jared Allen, Peppers (when Cutler went down), Jason Taylor (DPOY, 2006 Dolphins), Cam Wake, and there are probably many many more examples.

How many elite QBs have we seen on below 8-8 teams? It almost never happens.

It's time to take a chance

 

Marino seem to think there is three QBs, I take his word for it.

 

for all the bad players that the Dolphins have picked in the last 10 years Ginn jason Allen etc.etc.etc. This team has never picked a QB in the first round, I think if the coaches support it you take Tanny and good luck.

There should be a value chart as in a QB is worth 2 times a DE therefore Tanny should be the 6th pick, because because he could have a significant impact.

 

I would like to read that one.
Theres a Marino bit on NFL today but the headline is completely misleading.

Edit: i grabbed this off the site
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000...etch-for-tannehill?module=HP11_headline_stack
Dan Marino: Worth it to 'stretch' for Tannehill

But then when you read it

That's a awfull big IF.
He says it exactly the way i think it should be Dan is still the man.

 

The point being is Tannehill or any of the rest of 'em worthy of putting up with the growing pains? Probably not at #8

Weedon, late first sounds more like it.

Otherwise, take some late flyers on Foles, Keenum, etc.

 

so if we drafted chad henne in the first round instead of the second would he still be hear? i dont get the logic. if the talent is there you take it or move up for it. honestly we should offer our next 3 first rounders, dansby and whatever garbage hughe contract bums we have to indy.

 

Basically. I'd be more worried if the fans AREN'T *****ing about who we pick...

 

Deej, Ireland could end up with Andrew Luck out of this draft and there would be some fans complaining that he wasted the traded picks and didn't get anything to help Luck out with. For about half the fans, it simply won't matter who he takes, they will complain about Irish, period. It doesn't matter who...if he takes Tanny then half the folks will be bashing him for taking a project guy in the first. If he takes a DE then the half that wanted Tanny will be complaining. If he takes Keuchly, then the some will say it was too early to take him and if the takes an OL, well all he!! will break loose...

For most fans, I just don't think that anything he does will be good enough...so get used to it and be prepared for the onslaught...

 

I don't really care wither way. On one hand I'm not a Tannehill fan. On the other, it would be nice to see Ireland grow some balls and take a QB.

 

Ireland as the GM and boss may be browbeating these rookie coaches into thinking the way he thinks.

 

Gut feeling is doubling up on offensive linemen and linebackers this draft, with a flyer thrown in on a QB late (if not a UDFA type). I'm committed to seeing if Philbin can install something to get the offense kickstarted, but I'm not optimistic that we'll see anything for a couple of years at least.

 

I can't believe some fans still don't see the big picture on the importance of the QB position since the new pass interference rule were put in. The last five years since then you have only seen elite QB's in the SB. There is no more "you can win with an elite defense and a good game manager". Those days are done. The numbers speak for themselves. You're seeing records shattered every year and you're seeing an era where only great QB's can win. If you don't prioritize the position you have no chance. That's why you saw 7 QB's come off the board in the first 50 picks last year. That's why your last 5 SB's are:
Brady vs Eli (x2)
Rodgers vs Roethlisberger
Peyton vs Brees
Roethlisberger vs Warner

Gone are the days when a Rex Grossman or some other totally unimpressive QB does the job. Since Marino we have taken no QB's in the first round and you still dont think it's time? I don't even like Brandon Weeden before pick 100 and I still wouldn't complain cause the QB position is that damn important. If Tannehill is off the board I can understand passing but if he's not I hope there's another protest outside Ireland's office cause he truly deserves it.

 

Or we do see it and just aren't satisfied with the prospects. You don't take a player your not sold on.

 

Larry you have this correct. Never ending.

No fist pump option on my phone.

 

A good QB would be the only way to go if you don't have one. But is Tannehill or Weeden really a upgrade over Moore? If you don't have enough to make you confident one of these guys can out do what you have why waste it.
If Ireland feels Tannhill is worth chancing his job then he better grab him. Because he is on a short string.

 

You used to not take a player you weren't sold on. You can gamble more now. I think if every talent evaluator was honest about their track record they'd see their opinion on a qb is probably close to 50/50. Even if it was 65/35 record though, there's enough margin of error to take a guy you may not be 100% sold on. Unless the guy flames out like Russel or Leaf, a high round qb is still valuable to a team whether they are good or not, because someone, somewhere will be willing to give them a try. Why? Because QB's are that important.

I just don't understand not changing your strategy when the rules of the game changed.

 

Just because you aren't sold on a player doesn't mean this F.O. isn't. But I do agree with your overall premise. If the F.O. doesn't feel Tannehill is a franchise QB then they pass. BUT if they have the slightest thought that he can be a franchise QB, even if it takes 2-3 years, then you take him. No questions asked.

 

That was not what I was hoping to imply.

 

Other then inexperience I dont see a whole lot about Tannehill not to be sold on. So to be honest not only would I question Ireland's draft strategy but his QB evaluation skills as well if that were the case.

Weeden, probably not imo but Tannehill is almost certainly. The only thing Matt Moore is going to win is a bid to the Barkley Bowl imo. I have zero confidence he can actually beat a good team and he did little to quell that notion last year as all 6 teams in his win column had losing records and he performed poorly vs the better teams. Matt Moore plays little to no factor in my decision. Sorry if thats harsh but this losing habit has got to go and the only way its happening is with better QB play.

 

I'm waiting for you to change your title to Never Wrong.

 

Hes been wrong and hes admitted it when he has been

 

I was making a KB joke, as he and Alen are about as far apart as you can get when it comes to expressing opinions about player evaluations

 

But just as much as your opinion of Weeden varies from that of consensus opinion, its just as likely that a GMs opinion of other QBs can vary.

 

I don't think anyone is saying the strategy hasn't changed. Just that the change in strategy shouldn't mean you take a QB you believe to have a low probability of succeeding.

Just to throw out a hypothetical...If Tannehill wasn't in this draft, I think its safe to say that Boik wouldn't take Weeden at #8. Does that mean that Boik doesn't value the QB position? No. It just means his evaluation of Weeden differs from others'.

 

No doubt QB is the prime position on the field and to be a successful team finding a top player here helps your odds greatly in becoming a great team.
I don't think you'll find one person on here that disagrees with that.
Our "leadership" has passed over some good talents in the past. No argument there.

However your view that if they "like" a QB in this draft that they should throw out any valuations and where that valuation is likely to make that prospect fall is absurd.
You say there is not risk anymore with the rookie cap? Hogwash.

If you overpay for a prospect you could get in the 2nd or even worse the 3rd round in the first just because, you have given up the chance to pick a player that scouts and a teams staff has decided have a better chance of being a star in the NFL. A special player. You need special players and you need to hit on those first round players to get those more than not. There is in fact a huge risk in overpaying for a prospect just because.

Secondly you keep stating that the majority of top QB's have come from the 1st round.
So because of that you state they should just pick whatever QB they like at 8. Like the Phins taking any QB prospect at 8 will suddenly make them a success because they are now a "1st round talent". LOL. Does not work that way. If you take a QB scouts have graded as a 3rd round talent in the 1st it does not make them a 1st round talent. It makes your team look stupid for overpaying on a prospect and overlooking higher talents.

 

If that's Boik's stance I don't agree with it. You have to gamble now. Your team is not going anywhere without a QB. In fact, the better you are the less chance you have of getting the QB you need, just like this year.

 

What are you guys waiting for? Andrew Luck but at a pick we can make? Its insanity to keep waiting for the perfect scenario. Seriously where's the line? How long do you wait? What perfect storm are you guys waiting on?

I also seriously doubt our FO's take on Weeden or Tannehill is that they'll bust. I think they have a percentage in mind and I don't think its less than 50%. All I'm saying is that if they have a at least a 50% on these guys and pass on them, then they need to be fired. Do i know what grade they have on them? No/ Does anyone on this board? No. Will we after the draft regardless of what happens? No.

Overpaying for a prospect QB is not a problem anymore. Its our single biggest need. Last time we had a QB play at a franchise level we had less talent overall and won the division. Considering that, I'm not sure why people think any other position is worth picking high until we get our guy.

The point of selecting a QB ion the first round is because you have more QBs to choose from, not that there's magic inherent the round. If every draft there's two QB that are franchise your best bet is to pick early.

 

Tannehill is in this draft though, so it really doesn't matter.

Let's say you evaluate Tannehill as the 20th best player in the draft. If you need a QB, I don't think taking that guy at 8 is a reach, given the value of the position. My biggest concern with a guy like Ireland is that he gets so caught up in value he misses on good players.

 

I agree. If you think he's the 20th best player, you take him at 8. I don't think anyone really disagrees with that. But what if you think he's the 40th best player? 80th best? I just don't think its fair to say Ireland has to have one particular player rated in the top 20 or top 30. I do think its fair to judge his evaluations, but only after you see the players play.

 

That is my fear too, but that's my fear with any GM. I don't know Ireland will do that. We'll see after this draft, and if he does, kick him to the curb.

 

You can grade a draft before the players play. BPA is less important than it used to be. Need is actually a reason to draft now, because you can afford to miss. If Ireland fails to choose a first round talent QB, he'll have failed to recognize that the draft has changed. That means he's not the guy we need to formulate a draft strategy in the future.

 

And will you be contributing to the Fire Ireland banner fund if Tanny doesn't become Dan Marino this year ?? I think that's a big issue. Most of us want Ireland to break the Quitcells mode and take a risk, but then want to damn him if that pick doesn't turn out, this year... It's a tough decision to make and he won't please everyone with whatever moves he makes... I think it should be more about getting the right guys than whether he takes a QB or not...

 

Or he just thinks the QBs available aren't good, which differs from your opinion. If you're draft strategy is "this QB is the 80th best player available, but I'll take him at 8", then you're draft strategy sucks.

The best way to judge Ireland's evaluation of the QB position, is take a list of every QB that was available last offseason, then see how the QB he brought in performed compared to the other QBs that were available. I'm not sure why you would forego the value of hindsight when judging a GMs performance.

 

There is nothing to indicate that is the eval though. What if Ireland's stance is a first pick should immediately contribute to the team? Then can I be upset? You're giving me grief over an assumption that has nothing to back it up. The dolphins FO doesn't hold meetings with the 80th ranked player on their board. We know there's interest, Stringer. If he doesn't take him if he's there at 8, it will because he's trying to get a better deal and not because he doesn't think he's a starter eventually. That means if he does that, he should be fired.

 

I'm not exactly giddy about Tannehill's fundamentals, questionable accuracy at times and decision making. Feel free to question me.

Not harsh but I don't see it that way.

 

Yes, if that is the stance, you can be upset. My point is that we have no idea what the eval is though. As such, I'm not going to come with a concrete position that if he doesn't do X, he should be fired.

I'm not trying to give anyone grief. I'm not assuming anything. I'm not saying he might not have Tannehill rated as a top 20 player. He might not have him as a top 50 player. Its very possible. Is that a certainty? No. If he doesn't take Tannehill at 8, will I assume its because he didn't have him rated highly? No. Only thing I will assume is that I don't know what Jeff Ireland or the team thinks about him. Its an unknown.

My position is that Jeff Ireland's job is to bring in the best talent that he can at the QB position. The QBs Ireland puts on the roster this year should be compared with all the QBs that were available to Ireland. If the QBs he brings in don't perform as good or better, then he should be fired. But saying someone should be fired based on the assumption that he has player X rated somewhere is foolish IMO.

 

Yeah, me too... Ireland's MO seems to be more along the lines that he's determined his draft board and will stick to it. If Tanny is #5 on his board, but Coples is #1 and still available, that's where he has to stick to his guns or take a risk. His evaluations, his board is probably very similar to Jax's or Carolina's (one above, one below us)... The question is will he make that decision to go with QB over DE...both are needs but which does he see as more of a need? Maybe he doesn't have QB as big a need for us as the fanbase does... In that case, he'll choose Coples over Tanny and half the boards will be calling for his head....

 

Youre right, my bad. that flew right over my head

Yes opinions can vary but I dont think even the staunchest Moore/Garrard supporter would debate our need for a QB upgrade. The evaluation of our current QB situation is non-debateable. It needs help. So whether I like Weeden or not (and Im not a big fan), then Ireland better get off his butt and draft him. Ill take a backseat on that one cause even if Weeden fails at least JI tried. If you take an OL youre likely not going from 6-10 to 10-6. If you get better QB play you can achieve that and more.

Even if my evaluation of Weeden was that much different Id simply trade down and collect more picks until I felt taking a QB was appropriate and if that wasnt in round one so be it. Id still draft at least two in the middle to later rounds on the off chance at least one ends up as good TJ Yates.

Every QB makes a few questionable decisions. I dont see accuracy as an issue for Tannehill. He had slightly more then 10% of his passes dropped meaning his completion % realistically should have been up around 70% in a pro style system had he not been the victim of poor receiver play. His ball sails a bit over the middle but he also has a good touch on his passes so this is maybe a slight consistency issue that doesnt happen with a great frequency. Fundamentals...I dont know if youre referring to his slightly side arm release (in which case Kosar and Rivers are proof this is a non issue if you have adequate height which Ryan Tannehill does), the fact he has a bit of a windup on occasion or the fact he can release the ball too quickly on occasion but those are things you can teach.