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Can a QB be broken?

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by His'nBeatYour'n, Aug 21, 2012.

  1. arsenal

    arsenal Sunglasses and advil

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    To me, it doesn't matter how often a QB gets pressured/sacked, if he thinks and worries about the pressure before every play, that is a personal flaw. I think that would be the case even if that QB saw a pressure on a minority of snaps rather than the majority.

    If a guy can't handle pressure, he can't handle it whether it comes once in every 3 snaps or once in every 6 snaps. I don't think getting sacked more or less changes that in a potential QB.

    But again just my opinion
     
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  2. FinNasty

    FinNasty Alabama don’t want this... Staff Member Club Member

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    ...in your opinion.

    I'm stepping off this merry-go-round argument where neither side is going to be convinced to change their opinions and just keep repeating themselves and re-stating their opinions over and over (me included).

    I agree to disagree. I've made my stance known. And I honestly really and truly hope I'm wrong... b/c I dont win if I'm right.

    Heres hoping we can protect the kid and he goes out and lights it up...
     
  3. Nappy Roots

    Nappy Roots Well-Known Member

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    Well I am glad the NFL and Philbin agrees with us and is starting Tannehill.
     
  4. pocoloco

    pocoloco I'm your huckleberry Club Member

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    Yes, I think you can 'break' a young QB.

    If they are allowed to develop bad habits, accumulate nagging injuries and permitted to play timid. A lot of that is the responsibility of the coaching staff.

    I maintain the best place for most rookies is the sideline. With rare exceptions, the Steelers and Packers have done it this way for a good, long time and have gotten excellent results through the draft.
     
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  5. Ohio Fanatic

    Ohio Fanatic Twuaddle or bust Club Member

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    If your first round QB has "elite" talent, I believe he will eventually rise up to that level regardless of whether he sits (A Rodgers) or plays right away (Eli Manning).
    It's not a black-or-white issue, IMO. It has more to do with how quickly an elite QB develops that depends on multiple factors:
    (a) the right coaching staff to help his development (Philbin and Sherman seem to fit the bill
    (b) the right talent around the QB (questionable on this team)
     
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  6. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    A guy I believe may have been hurt by starting too early was Dan Marino. His biggest weakness throughout his career was his post-snap reads. He was so good at just throwing it in to guys despite them being covered that he never developed great post-snap read ability. SF used that against him in the SB by changing the D at the snap (that wasn't as common then as it is now). NE also did that to Marino quite a bit and not surprisingly NE was one of his toughest opponent (statistically). Maybe Marino would have struggled with those reads regardless, but maybe if he had sat and learned a bit longer he might have got that SB win.

    IMO if Montana had been thrown in right away, I doubt any of us would remember his name now.

    Vick is another guy who I believe had to unlearn many bad habits developed while playing early on. Maybe he was just too arrogant and needed the dog fighting/prison thing to humble him. But I wonder if had sat a bit and learned if he may have been a better QB earlier.

    I also believe that if Rodgers and Alex Smith had switched draft slots that they may have also switched careers (up to this point).

    IMO RT should start just b/c he's so much better than any other healthy option we have. I don't think Philbin had any other choice. But I also believe there is an element of risk.
     
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  7. Eop05

    Eop05 Junior Member Club Member

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    I've heard reports where Michael Vick still doesn't read defenses. 10+ years into his career and he still can't read a defense. I doubt sitting him a few games or a year would've changed that.

    Same with Marino. His personality was never one to be a student of the game. Sitting him longer probably wouldn't have turned him into one.

    Sure, Rodgers and Smith change teams and it may be a different story. But that's not a development problem IMO. RT will be playing his first full seasons with Philbin as HC, Sherman as OC, and Zach Taylor as QB coach. Whether it's game 1, game 10 or next year. If those guys can coach then RT will be fine. If they can't coach then he may or may not be fine. It's not a miracle that Alex Smith sucked for 6 seasons, gets good coaching and doesn't suck.

    Alex Smith isn't ruined. Never was.
     
  8. His'nBeatYour'n

    His'nBeatYour'n Glass Ceiling Repairman

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    The response to that is Vick and Alex Smith. They were poorly coached early in their careers, but they never broke.

    How have the Steelers and Packers done it for a good long time? All their great QBs were developed differently.
     
  9. Eop05

    Eop05 Junior Member Club Member

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    Look at the situation Tennessee is in. They took the sit our top 10 QB approach (although I never thought Locker was a top 10 QB).

    Hasselbeck plays good enough to put the organization in a tough spot.

    Locker doesn't appear to have outplayed Hasselbeck, yet the organization thinks they need to see what this kids got, so after he basically ****s himself this past week they still decide to declare him the starter.

    A) Locker appears to have NOT developed any better with that year on the sidelines learning from a very intelligent Hasselbeck. I'd say most of his experience and learning will begin on the field this year.
    B) RT with all of 19 games college experience and one Training camp looks ahead of Locker
    C) There will always be that question, if he sucks, that maybe Tennessee made the wrong decision in going with him over Hasselbeck

    It's preseason and early. Maybe I'm wrong and Locker plays well. But I don't see it. I don't think that developmental year will have done anything for Locker. It was a waste of a period where they could've have been evaluating him, IMO.

    Miami nipped a possible problem in the butt by naming RT the starter this season
     
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  10. smahtaz

    smahtaz Pimpin Ain't Easy

    You make a lot of good points. I’m curious what you think about the effect of the technology the young players have access to? I can’t find it right now but I heard Chris Weinke talking about teaching Newton and Tannehill how to watch tape as part of the services he offered at IMG. Unlike the “old days” a player doesn’t have to go to the facility and load up a bunch of reels of film. I wouldn’t be surprised to find out that Tannehill already has every Texans defensive snap from last year already loaded on his IPad and if you add video conferencing to the mix, the possibilities seem endless.

    In theory, couldn’t a player sit behind a vet for the season during an off-season? I mean, if he had the intelligence, work ethic and right teacher, that is?
     
  11. MikeHoncho

    MikeHoncho -=| Censored |=-

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    Can a qb be broken? Anything is possible with this O Line I guess.
     
  12. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    The extent of the research that needs to be done to adjudicate this issue no one is going to do.
     
  13. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    Like I said, no one is going to do the research to support this either way, but I suspect that it boils down to whether a team has a good enough defense to allow its offense to stay balanced, which keeps the rookie QB from having to pass a ton and in that way carry the team.

    I don't think it's good for a rookie quarterback to be put in a position in which he's adjusting to the NFL level, while at the same time having lots of responsibility for winning on his shoulders. I would think you'd want to ease the guy into the league and not overwhelm him with lots of responsibility right off the bat.

    Now, if that happens with Tannehill, he'll at least have his knowledge of the offense working in his favor, but I certainly hope this defense plays better than it's looked the past two preseason games, for his sake.
     
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  14. Yellow Snowman

    Yellow Snowman New Member

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    You clearly dont know anything about the Alex Smith situation if you feel this way. I'm going to give you the short answer because what Alex went through would have definitely destroyed almost any QB.......one example of them destroying Alex is the guy had a separated throwing shoulder. He was in excruciating pain and could not throw. Mike Nolan said he wasn't injured and forced him on the field. Not only was he ineffective due to a bad shoulder but it completely undermined the guy as a possible leader of a team.

    I've never seen a coach outright call his QB a lier and say he isn't injured when to the naked eye it was obvious. If that isn't trying to destroy a QB then nothing is.......oh ya tha tis just 1 of the many examples.......and you're wrong. 49ers did nearly destroy him with **** coaches, and Harbaugh has built him back up like the genius he is.
     
  15. Eop05

    Eop05 Junior Member Club Member

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    So even in their best attempt to ruin him, they didn't ruin him. It took a competent coach 4 months to "repair"
     
  16. Yellow Snowman

    Yellow Snowman New Member

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    No they did ruin him. He was absolute garbage and a bust. He was a FA and nobody wanted him. Harbaugh just rebuilt him and his confidence. It is well documented what Harbaugh did to rebuild Alex into the game manager he was last year.
     
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  17. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

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    Any player can be broken by bad coaching.
    Not every player can be improved by good coaching.

    What helps from a coaching/organisation perspective is:
    1) Good coaching on the basic mechanics. This is why Don Shula is the greatest coach in the history of the NFL.
    2) Consistent reward/punishment. This is why Nick Saban was a bad NFL coach. Don't cuss out players because they executed a bad play call and got a bad result.
    3) Consistent regimes. The NFL is a difficult enough thing to learn without having to learn a new bunch of concepts every year.
    4) Giving young players the opportunity to learn on the job. This is why Dave Wannstadt is a bad coach - he never developed young players he always preferred veterans.
    5) Asking players to do what they are capable of. Don't give noodle arm QBs a bunch of downfield plays. Don't ask scatterguns to thread the needle.

    Other issues:
    1) Locker room. Good teams work together, and players learn a lot from each other. Bad teams people are too worried about their own job security to help out other players.
    2) The player's own motivation/desires.
     
  18. His'nBeatYour'n

    His'nBeatYour'n Glass Ceiling Repairman

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    The point remains a good QB is never beyond recovery. As much of a bust as Alex Smith was at times, ALEX SMITH never quit. He reclaimed the starting job once before Harbaugh even got there. Harbaugh doesn't look like a genius if Smith is broken and unwilling to do the work.
     
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  19. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    I think at this point, you've defined broken to mean unwilling to work to improve.

    People can get stuck in their own heads. It happens all the time in all walks of life.
     
  20. dolfan32323

    dolfan32323 ty xphinfanx

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    With Jon Martin starting at RT... yeah, it's possible that a QB can be broken. Let's hope it doesn't happen.
     
  21. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    I would think they could, but I doubt they'd put in the time with the vet and the coaches present that they would put in during the season when everybody is there and present and there's an urgency. It could be done though.
     
  22. dgb11112

    dgb11112 Hall Of Fame

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    Lets look at some others that were a first year first game QB

    1. Matt Ryan
    2 Kurt Warner
    3. Cam Newton
    4. Peyton Manning
    5. Sam Bradford
    6. Josh Freeman I believe
    7. Joe Flacco
    8. Mark Sanchez

    there are others as well but these are some recent ones. When you look at it Miami has a much better O line then most of these QB's had too start
     
  23. His'nBeatYour'n

    His'nBeatYour'n Glass Ceiling Repairman

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    FinD. That is not how I defined it. I define a broken QB as a player who becomes a bust, who never would have been a bust under alternate circumstances.

    But I don't believe a good QB can be broken. I believe a QB can only be exposed for who they really are. And that playing before a QB is "ready" won't mean he won't ever be ready.
     
  24. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Ok that's fair.

    FTR,
    I believe you can break a QB. I also believe you can fix a broken QB, but it takes time.
    I also think sitting a QB a year takes less time then fixing a broken QB.
     
  25. Ohio Fanatic

    Ohio Fanatic Twuaddle or bust Club Member

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    but Alex Smith is just a good game manager, not an elite QB by any stretch. So, you do have to be more careful with someone like him, whereas, the Eli Mannings will find a way to float to the top under most circumstances.
     
  26. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    I'm sorry but I can't fully agree with this b/c it seems like you're simplifying it too much.
    I agree with part of what you're implying [that bad QBs can get sacked a lot b/c they're simply bad and can't work the pocket or make timely, efficient decisions] but it seems like you're saying only bad QBs get sacked a lot and that there's no such thing as poor protection or a bad offensive line.

    I've watched NE enough to know that Brady often has a strong pocket to work from with quality passing lanes, and he picks defenses apart....... and I've also watched NE enough to know what Brady looks like when his Oline is struggling.

    Case in point: his 12 combined sacks & QB hits game vs the Jets in the 2010 playoffs.
     
  27. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    No, there is such thing as poor protection. Its independent of what the QB is doing. If the protection is poor, the QB needs to avoid getting sacked, or get rid of the ball sooner. Taking a sack is always a worse outcome than throwing the ball away.

    Right, and the success of the offense as a whole is a function of his play as well as everyone else's.

    Brady is no different of a player when his OL is bad. The offense as a whole is different.

    And if you asked Brady, he would say he should have done a better job in those games, and taken less sacks.
     
  28. jw3102

    jw3102 season ticket holder

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    The best thing about the Dolphins naming Tannehill the starting QB is that we now finally see that the Dolphins are in a rebuilding mode. Not the talented team that is a legitimate playoff contender, which Ross tried to sell to the Dolphin fans.

    Tannehill will certainly take his lumps this season and the Dolphins will be lucky to win five games, but at least Dolphin fans will be able to see if Tannehill grows into the position as the season goes along. I was one of those who though Tannehill should sit this season and learn behind Garrard, but with the injury to Garrard, Tannehill is a far better option than Moore or Devlin. By Tannehill starting so early, at least we will all know by season's end if he just might be the long term answer this team has be looking for since Marino retired.

    I just hope he doesn't get killed playing behind one of the worst offensive lines in the NFL. Having a number 1 and 2 receiver would also be a great benefit, but I just don't see any top line receivers on this team.
    The Dolphin staff haven't given him much to work with this season on offense. He better keep his head on a swivel and learn how to slide feet first on all those times he is going to be forced to run out of the pocket.
     
  29. His'nBeatYour'n

    His'nBeatYour'n Glass Ceiling Repairman

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    I think we just disagree on the semantics. I think of a broken QB as someone who is done, no redemption, just a nail in the coffin bust. There is no fixing him. And he would have to be broken by external forces, not by innate inability to succeed.
    I call what you describe as broken, as merely a stunted QB. And I think regardless of whether you play early or not, a good QB with stunted growth is likely due to bad coaching.

    It is a Nature vs. Nurture debate to me. But I think the false notion that people have about a rookie QB is that he is a brand new baby QB. Or that you treat him like a brand new baseball glove that needs to be broken in . He is not brand new, he played it in college and High School. He is more like a used baseball global glove, he needs to be refitted to your hand and style, but if it is a good glove, you can't break it by using it too early.
     
  30. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    You make it seem so easy, yet a HOF QB like Brady can still have a 5 sack game when his protection is bad. Are you suggesting that Brady had a complete lapse in instincts and understanding of the game during those instances?

    If a successful QB should be able to both overcome poor protection & maintain quality efficiency [as you're suggesting], then why do so many teams spend 1st and 2nd round picks on tackles when they could've instead drafted them in later rounds and let the QB do all the work as you seem to suggest? Why would NE, GB, and Indy spend a combined 5 1st & 2nd round picks (4 1st rounders) in the past 3 years on OT?

    According to your argument, teams with HOF QBs wouldn't need such high picks on Oline, and teams with bad QBs should be the ones drafting tackles high in order to make up for the QB's inadequacy.

    Isn't there a penalty for throwing the ball away when inside the tackles?

    Not disagreeing with this.

    So you are saying Brady is affected when his OL is bad? Just want to make sure I'm understand you b/c, if that's what you're saying, if Brady's good Oine can have a bad game that leads to a poor Brady performance, then why can't a bad Oline have 15-16 bad games that lead's to a season of poor QB performance, especially if the QB is a rookie rather than an elite veteran like Brady?

    Respectfully, what Brady said he should've done and what he [a HOF QB] actually did do were 2 different stories. The results are all that matter, no? Brady has had other games where he was been "gotten to" and performed less admirably than he would've preferred. I'm sure that every bad QB knows that he needs to do a better job avoiding pressure, but like Brady, that doesn't mean it will always translate on the field.

    So after watching that NE-Jets playoff game, are you insinuating the reason Brady was sacked & pressured 12 times was b/c he couldn't avoid the pressure rather than his Oline being a sieve that day? I remember that gave vividly. He had little time to throw; the pressure was disrupting his timing; and he seemed as concerned about avoiding pressure as he was trying to find the open receiver.
     
  31. Fail forward
     
  32. MAFishFan

    MAFishFan Team Tannehill

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    you either have it or don't. and can we stop foreshadowing a POSSIBLE scenario for the sky falling? can Tannehill get at least one season under his belt? can we all accept that there are going to be bonehead interceptions? games where he looks like a rookie? jesus people. he hasn't even started a regular season game. i get that we're all nervous because we've been here before, but dear lord, let the kid at least play a regular season before we all jump off the bridge and declare him a bust.
     
  33. Da 'Fins

    Da 'Fins Season Ticket Holder Staff Member Club Member

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    While yes it is difficult to determine whether any one player was hurt or helped by being on the field early on, it is very clear that QB's (even the best) can have confidence break downs. This happens in single games - when a team really gets after the QB and he becomes gun shy over the rush or struggles to find open WR's - his passes become less accurate; he throws just a split second too soon; etc.

    QB is arguably the most fragile position - psychologically - in sports (hockey goaltending is right there). It's been demonstrated in several sports - golf, baseball, etc. - that a great professional can lose confidence (Steve Sax anyone? He got to where he could not have hit Prince Fielder from 20 feet).

    So, yes, of course, a player can be damaged if he loses confidence. A player who develops confidence over time, has a great team in place around him, may be much better over the course of time if brought along appropriately. Or, a QB may remember other pressure situations in which his OL or WR's have failed, or in which he has failed the next time he is in that situation and he may have trouble blocking it out psychologically - whereas were he in another situation he might not have the same mental demons come into play - like Yogi used to say, "Sports are 90% mental and half physical."

    There does come a time for every player when they have to perform under intense pressure. But, when that pressure comes and how can make a difference. So, too can the players around that player. If San Antonio Holmes doesn't make a finger tip grab or if a FG kicker misses some key kicks, there are a lot of QBs in this league who aren't considered quite so "clutch" under pressure.

    We'll see about Tannehill. For me, because he is so limited in his college time, and because the team structured around him is, imo, very flawed (right side of the OL; the WR position; a very mediocre D with a limited pass rush and suspect DBs), I am not enthused about him starting this early. I don't think he would be, sadly, had Garrard not been injured.
     
  34. gafinfan

    gafinfan gunner Club Member

    We are talking about guys who are applying for 32 job openings. The cream of the cream, the best of the best. Of course most will fail yet name me even one job where only the best are chosen where they sit and learn by watching to become a menber. No, they all learn by doing be it NFL QB, Navy SEAL, TOP GUN pilot, Billionaire, Marine Sniper, or anyother mentally tough and/or physically demanding job. The attrition rate of all of those jobs is extremely high and most will fail.

    The failure of some is caused by a lack of proper coaching. For the most part though the person doing the job is the one who determinds their own success or failure.:yes:

    I think we have a good coaching staff and Tannehill has the mental toughness to be our guy, the only question left is one of his level of talent. We are about to find that out.
     
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  35. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    So, fresh out of college a guy should be CEO of an established company?
     
  36. pocoloco

    pocoloco I'm your huckleberry Club Member

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    I think part of the old Parcells axiom, a starter at a big-time college program (in my mind, basically SEC, Big Ten, Oregon and USC) with good size and top notch results, is useful.

    You can take a Peyton Manning out of Tennesse or a Cam Newton out of Auburn, throw them into the NFL immediately, and get medicore to great results provided the supporting cast has decent piences.

    You'll obviously have the occasional exceptions like Big Ben that come from a small school and light it up. And duds like Henne. But if you dragging your savior QB out of Texas A&M, Houston, Cal, Boston College, Boise State, Hawaii, etc. you might want to temper the expectations. The game, the speed and the atmosphere can be quite different.
     
  37. Sumlit

    Sumlit Well-Known Member

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    Yeah FinD, but sitting a QB for a year is also no guarantee that he won't be broken once he does get to play. In reality, there's really no foolproof way to guarantee the success of your QB.

    Play right away or not, the rookie QB is going to somehow go through growing pains once he plays, regardless of the readiness level. The good ones learn and overcome; the bad ones fold under the pressure.
     
  38. His'nBeatYour'n

    His'nBeatYour'n Glass Ceiling Repairman

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    College QBs aren't only sitting in a classroom learning how to be QBs. They ARE QBs.

    If the guy was CEO of a smaller company in college, would he be "broken" by running a larger company out of college?

    Would he never be able to be the CEO just because he was a CEO early?

    I don't follow the careers of CEOs, especially ones coming right out of college, but it has been done. Just as QBs have come into the NFL and started right away and succeeded.
     
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  39. RGF

    RGF THE FINSTER Club Member

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    I agree with all of this. Thanks for saving me the time of typing it .
    If we were only a QB away from seriously competing then starting Tannehill would be a big mistake, but thats not the case.
     
  40. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    Any team is a QB away from seriously competing in this league.
     

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