I respect you , sure you know that , so this question is said in that tone , why do you like how they coach their players? I want to , and hope to , but haven't seen nearly enough to state that. I like they are holding them accountable, that they are demanding , but I haven't seen a step up ( very very early ) from anyone where I can say , they really benefited and and produced from this staff.
I don't know that we were even shopping Paul at the time to gauge his value. But this makes it all the worse IMO as it pertains to Vontae, because we are giving up on a player who was arguably better at his position now than Paul was at his back then. Paul really exploded in his 4th season. 3rd of the Parcells/Ireland era. Vontae is just now entering his 4th season. I seem to remember a lot of discussion between 2009 and 10 on the team's patience with Paul wearing very thin. Heck, the talk was when we traded back in the 1st, Parcells was targeting Dan Williams and was livid with the Cards got him a couple picks ahead of us. That indicates to me that by April 2010, they still had no faith in Paul. Then he had his big season in 2010 which was only made possible by Odrick getting hurt and Starks having to move back out to DE after game 1. Had we known we could count on Paul to blossom fully in 2010, we could have stayed put at 12th overall and taken Earl Thomas.
If a sportswriter of the caliber of Dave Hyde is scratching his head and wondering whether Philbin knows what he's doing, we all should be asking the same question. I hope Hyde is proved wrong.
Same for me DJ. The positive side hopes he is just another Tony Dungy type of coach while the negative side hopes I'm not in denial and he's in over his head as much as CamCam was.
Tennessee's Justin Hunter could be close to the Green/Jones type if he's back to 100%..... and Keenan Allen could be a top 10 pick, no? Definitely no Megatrons or Fitz though darn it.
And this too , Hyde is pretty pointed in this column. Philbin will pay if this doesn't work out. But Ireland may pay more immediately. He spent richly for Marshall and Davis. They were personnel decisions that at least produced. And now they're kicked out of town by the new coach because of losing attitudes. If Davis reaches his potential in Indianapolis, second- and sixth-round picks won't match his value. No way. Just as if Marshall is a beast again in Chicago, two third-rounds don't come close. This isn't about value for Philbin, though. This is about a first-year coach doing what he believes. Give him courage-of-his-conviction points. But he'll be judged on wins and losses. Talent decides that. And talent keeps going out the door. Does Philbin know what he's doing?
Some pretty interesting rush prospects though and since when are we fooling ourselves we would have used a high high number one on a receiver anyway ? Cheers
you knucklehead. stop making up your own rules to my questions. Seriously though, out of the 2 choices at corner which would you rather have: a) SS, VD, Carroll b) SS, Marshall, Carroll... and an extra 2nd & 6th
It seems like we've been talking about Bowe to Miami offseason after offseason. Maybe someday it'll come true. It's been rumored that we were one of the teams interested in Mike Wallace. I remember we supposedly loved Percy Harvin the same draft we took Davis. There was the rumor we had a deal in place for Desean Jackson after trading Brandon Marshall. Maybe something comes to fruition.
Flip the transaction around and there would be criticism about sending a high 2nd round pick for a nickel corner who lost his starting job. Still, I don't feel too good about the trade (though I understand the arguments made for it).
Huh? Philbin has a Super Bowl ring, Hyde does not. Why would Hyde's opinion on football carry more weight than Philbin's?
SS, Marshall, VD, like it was up til yesterday. As for Carroll, I'd have kept Ginn, just to return punts and kicks, and run 2-3 fly routes a game, so we wouldn't have Carroll on the roster at all, unless we drafted him with the pick used on Jones, which would be ok, because he is an awful safety IMO.
I've been trying to say I don't know how to read him, I don't know if this is what you have to do to build a championship, rid players who don't immediately buy, or should we expect more out of our coaches to take the young men and find a level of communication that motivates them..if your telling me that this staff gave VD ultimatums after a 6 month evaluation, I'll say they seem smart enough, so maybe he is.. That's a he'll of a lot of trust from someone we don't really know, however like finD says, he's seen it done before. Is your hope lye in his intelligence?
Maybe, to be honest I have not really looked to see how this draft potentially unfolds closely , I do know there are some very interesting rush players that if they build from last year would potentially be a good pick for our number one , and there will be receivers at 2 that will work but I do want a safety , and not one we pick in the 5th round. We also now need a corner and that is before SS decides to stay or leave, so we can see how the draft falls, but sure 2 productive receivers in round two could work for me.
Not much bro, Just what I've seen in person and on tv, gut tells me Sherman, Cambell and turner will get this offense on track. At this point I don't know what to think about our head coach..VD has a lot of potential you just gave up on, you better know what your doing.
My hope lies in these things: - Philbin was in charge of crafting the gameplans for the best offense in the league that also happened to win a SB and produce one the best QBs in the league. - He wasn't brought in by the current Packer staff. He was impressive enough to keep on, then move up with new people. - He considers himself a teacher - He brought in Sherm who was a helluva pro coach in Green Bay. - I saw our 10 loss team, install a new QB, new offense, new defense, new coaches and were just a rare dropped TD (from Fasano) from our first team beating Atlanta's first team.
He had a couple when the league was different, Philbin's is pretty recent. Parcells blueprint used to work. Regardless, Hyde knows less than Philbin. Or is that really up for debate?
Sometimes even though you can see the angles, you have to go with your gut. I'm just going to go ahead and say, I don't really like this trade that much. I understand it, but I don't really like it. Just because I understand the reasoning and I feel it's constructed in a very sound manner, doesn't mean I feel it stacks up right. I understand the trade because Richard Marshall is THEIR guy and they just signed him to a longer term contract. Marshall in their eyes has soundly beaten Vontae for the job and at this point they have no reason not to think that Marshall won't keep it for the remainder of his long term deal which runs beyond Vontae's deal. So at this point for them, Vontae is an arrow down player, a guy that is just the nickel corner, and if you can trade off your nickel corner for a 2nd round pick well that's pretty darn good. But we need to take a step back and ask ourselves how much we really trust that they're making the right calls here. I liked the Richard Marshall signing...when I thought he was going to play SAFETY. If he's going to play corner I think we should be prepared to see a lot more of what we saw against Carolina, which is a guy that just isn't that good. Vontae was arguably better than this guy as he stood, and if he'd just been given more time to buy into the program and get some good coaching by Kevin Coyle and the gang, he might have reached his potential. And even if he didn't, he's a worthwhile starter. I think I would approve of this trade if I felt like we had the position opposite Sean Smith nailed down. Many people assume we do because they just assume Richard Marshall is a great corner. I don't assume that because I watched him get torched in Arizona when we first signed him and I wanted to gain some insight on the newcomer. In the end I think we just opened up another hole on the roster. But at the same time the Dolphins will have 5 picks in the top 3 rounds of the 2013 Draft, and well over $50 million in salary cap space. These are enticing things for a potential new General Manager. With Joe Philbin already in place and likely to get at least another year no matter what he does record-wise this year, that's going to be a disadvantage when it comes to luring a highly sought after General Manager. On top of that you have Ryan Tannehill already in place...and for some prospective General Managers, that could be a deal breaker. But at the same time now that the Dolphins have put together so many high Draft picks and so much salary cap space, those prospective General Managers may think twice. They may come to look at Miami's situation and say you know what, I liked Ryan Tannehill, I think he could work out, and I think Joe Philbin is a good coach...and with $50 million cap space and a ton of Draft picks I can build around them.
You know, I have heard that argument before, many, many times in Dolphin circles. "Oh, I guess YOU know better than the coach/GM/owner..." Well, the sad fact is, very often the fans as a whole do know better because they don't have their ego and self-worth involved in each decision. They only want their team to win, while a coach or GM want the team to win because of THEM and THEIR decisions, not because of the decisions of a previous GM or coach, for example. Cleaning house is fine, but there is such a thing as throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
We have zero idea the extent that Green Bay's blueprint was actually Philbin's. Shoot, for all we know, Philbin voted against drafting Rodgers but lost the vote. And Hyde is not saying he knows more than Philbin, he is wondering if Philbin is making correct choices. Subtle difference, but it is one.
No, we have exactly the idea how much Philbin did there. You're not even splitting hairs here. Hyde can only question what Philbin is doing in such a way if he has equal or more knowledge.
I don't think it's all about being sold on any other player. A lot of this is about Vontae himself.... a player that has all the raw talent needed to be a superstar but one that continues to not really value what he has. Talent can't overcome a lazy and bad attitude at the top level. I believe the Dolphins do not believe he will ever snap out of it. They got good value for a player that probably will never come close to his potential.
If some fans had their way ... and he wouldn't if others had their way . That's not at all accurate , unless you meant to say some fans.
No, in fact, the fans knew more than Dave Wannstedt, Chris Speilman, Cam Cameron and many others. The fans wind up being right more often than they're wrong. And just because Flynn got beat out doesn't mean he would have been bad here, but most of the fans weren't crying for Flynn, they wanted Peyton Manning.
We would've drafted Brees and given up on him after his third year when he threw more picks than tds. Then we would've had to take j.p. losman instead of Vernon Carey. We wouldn't want to give up on our new pick too soon, so we'd skip over Aaron Rodgers the following year. Then....etc.
True. It's also drawing a line in the sand as a staff and saying, be are willing to move backwards in order to become a team with one consistent culture and set of values... which will then move farther forwards than we could have with players who didn't 'fit in'. A lot of culture-making going on. I think Ireland did this from a value proposition, but with Philbin and Coyle's blessing.
The coaches probably are and should be ok with the long term approach as they won't be in firing lines this year , Ireland must know he has at least one more safe year ( said that before ) look for a lot of changes to the bottom of the 53 man roster. No need to sugar coat it now , players know , fans know , owner knows , this is a rebuild. Virtually certain we'll see some other name players depart.
