Miami Dolphins QB John Beck vows to improve

Hi. Have I seen you on a different site?

The bolded is what I agree with you on thus far.

 

Your exact words in another post were:

"IMO, he showed that he has trouble taking the snap cleanly and didn't show any flashes that point to surefire stardom (ala Trent Edwards). "

Neither Beck nor Edwards have shown any flashes of sure fire stardom. Beck was on one of the least talented and poorly performing teams in the history of the NFL. Edwards was on a decent team with a solid defense and running game. Tha'ts all we've seen so far. And my point with Edwards' playing time was simply that we have not seen enough of him to fairly characterize what type of NFL player he will be; not that he didn't play more than Beck.

 

Has Beck shown flashes of brilliance? No. Has Edwards? Yes. Why is this hard for you?

 

Edward's has shown no brilliance. He was a caretaker last year. I watched 4 of his games, and never once saw anything that made me go "WOW". He did nothing special; he just dumped it off to the TE or RB in the flat play after play. Not taking anything away from him, as you shouldn't expect a rookie to do much more than that, but "brilliant"? No way.

And "this is hard for me" because what you're implying doesn't hold water with me, nor does it hold water with many an educated fan on this board, as you can see. One might ask the same question of you, seeing as you're decidedly in the minority.

 

I have to respectfully disagree here. I watched several Bills games this year as well as the guy I split the Sunday Ticket with is a huge bills fan. And the throw Edwards made against the Redskins late in the 4th quarter that put the Bills in range for the game winning kick was absolutely brilliant. And I hate to mention it, but he looked phenomenal against us. Yeah our defense stinks, but for a rookie QB it was still a good performance. Given all the people who give John Beck credit for throwing his only TD pass against an awful Bengals defense in 4th quarter garbage time, Trent Edwards should be given some credit for throwing 4 TD passes against us. Hopefully John Beck goes on to have the better career, but for anybody to suggest Trent Edwards did not have a better season than Beck last year is just not looking at things objectively.

As for the Beck debate, I tend to agree that he seems to have a lot of undeserved respect given last year's performance. But this is a fan board, and part of being a fan of a player or team is supporting your players during good and bad times. I think deep down every Miami Dolphins fan wants the best QB on the roster to win the job. But it's still ok to have a favorite that we want to win the job. As for me, I hope Henne wins the job for the simple fact that he's the youngest guy on the roster, and if he can get the job done, then he can be our QB for a few seasons longer than Beck or McCown. Henne could potentially be a seasoned vet at 26 or 27 while Beck is still adjusting to the speed of the game at the same age and McCown remains mediocre.

 

SLFF...

I am pretty much on the record as not seeing a whole lot in Beck. I do not see the "tools" and I personally think both Edwards and Kolb have far superior tools (Edwards more than Kolb). With that said I also think Beck has improved his mechanics from what very little I have seen....and I am on the record as hoping the guys proves me very wrong...............BUT.............. And not to hijack a thread....BUT......if we are going to compare Edwards to Beck (and again I think the tools are far superior on Edwards)...lets look at the ratios and percentages of their productivity....

Edwards has a higher YPA (6.1 to 5.2), their completion percentages are practically identical, their ratio of 20 yards plus passes is close (Edwards 7.8% to Becks 7.4), Edwards has a 1.4% ratio of 40 yards plus passes...Beck did not have any, Edwards takes far less sacks...far less....(4.4% to Becks 9.3%), Edwards has a better TD/INT ratio (1:1 versus Becks 1:3). Edwards also protects the ball...FAR...FAR better (Edwards 4 fumbles in 10 games, Beck 7 fumbles in 5 games).

Again when you look at the elite QB's Edwards completion % is far less, but his YPA is not that far off, his 40 yard completion % (1.4%) is right there with Manning, Brady and Rothelisberger (1.7, 2.5 and 1.4 respectfully) and his sack ratio is in line with Brady and Manning...Rothlisberger took 11% sacks per attempt (very high ratio and near Becks 9.3%, two of the highest in the league).

And yes I acknowledge the argument that Miami's OL was terrible as Cleo Lemon actually had one of the highest Sacks per attempt ratios at 14% in the NFL...so I acknowledge that.

It is time for the tools argument to go away that is draft and year 1 stuff....it is time to produce...because I see neither the tools nor production from Beck....and in evaluating the two side by side, I think it is a safe bet that looking at the numbers from an unbiased standpoint Beck is by far the more likely and deserving of the label "caretaker". Edwards showed some quantitative and measurable positives....Beck did not...IMH and the stats
opinion...

 

I never said he didn't have a better year than Beck. It's obvious he did. And I think Edwards did a very good job as a rookie. But brilliant? I can't see it.

At any rate, this whole argument came out of SunCoast's statements along the lines of "Beck will be, at the very best, a Jay Fiedler type" and such. This wasn't intended to be a bash Trent Edwards discussion. Did I have my doubts about Beck last year? You bet. But he pulled through admirably in his last game. Sure it was the Bengals and the game was decided, but John Beck was playing for much more than a win, he was playing to pull his game back together again after it had been shattered by Cameron's mismanagement and some illtimed turnovers. He was playing to restore his confidence, and more or less, he was playing to show the new boss that he could play. That's a very stressful set of circumstances, and he held it together. He commanded the huddle, he went through his progressions quickly, he hit the open man, he managed the clock well, he sacrificed his body for a TD, and he showed he could throw a nice TD pass on the run. That's when I found hope for John Beck.

 

SLFF...hey we agree on some things, and I respect your right to your opinion...Suncoast too for that matter...personally I do not think that winding up and throwing 76 mph at the combine and throwing a wobbly horrible looking TD pass against a hapless team in garbage time is enough to offset everything I saw...just me.... if you look at the ratio's Becks ratios were much the same in the PS (other than a 1:1 INT/TD ratio), he fumbled 4% and did not throw down field...I will have to look at the BYU figures. IMHO you have a guy that does not take care of the ball, does not thrown vertical, takes a lot of sacks, is limited physically (not near as much as Fiedler BTW).

I respect your viewpoint of what you saw against the Bungles...I do not share that viewpoint. That is OK. If you look a little deeper at the issues with Beck IMHO you will be less impressed. I was sent a lonk to the Ginn pass for a 30 yard gain or so against the Eagles...it was represented as a positive and if you analyize it it was the poster for bad mechanics and a wobbly duck pass. He throws some real wobblers (al be it completed wobblers) and I have yet to see this strong arm. I read and hear bout his terrific intangibles yet no one rallied around the guy. Supporters revel in his preperation and work ethic...I see a guy wound a little too tight. He reminds me ...for MUCH MUCH different reasons of David Woodley...a guy with some talent that is wound too tight and worried about doing everything perfect...almost TOO coachable....

Again...I respect your opinion and your right to see things differently....but I would not bother trying to convince me any more...I watch a lot of football and have a lot of tapes, and am at least fairly knowledgable and my opinion is pretty much formed on what I saw until now...hopefully I am wrong about his upside and he becomes a HOF'er.... and hopefully I see much better things in the future...but up to now we have seen much different things.......

 

First of all, Edwards' 6.0 YPA is pretty good for a rookie. As a matter of fact, he was closer to Drew Brees than John Beck was to him. So I guess that kind of shoots down your theory. If that doesn't than this should...Joe Montana made a living out of dumping off to running backs and TEs. Who cares who he gets it done? Last year, in three games, Edwards was outstanding. Brilliant? You damn bet it was. If Beck had done in one game what Edwards did in three, some of you wouldn't be able to contain your excitement.

I am not surprised to be in a minority of Fins fans per its players or coaches. It happens to me all the time. Many times, after having been in the minority status for months, I turn out to be correct.

So lets allow this one to play out before we "democratically" decide who is correct. As for now, I 'll stand alone with Parcells over you guys with Cameron any day.

 

What a great post. And you are correct, not only that one throw that you mentioned vs the Redskins, but that whole game the kid was exceptional. If you cannot look at Trent Edwards and see a potential star, I don't think you know what your are looking for. Anyway, outstanding post.

 

You rock.

 

We respectfully agree to disagree. The only thing left to do is watch the season unfold. I'll continue to root for Beck. If he succeeds tremendously, I won't say a thing, rather bathe in the glory in solitude. If he fails, I'll be the first to come on this board and raise the white flag, eat my serving of crow, and turn in my football analysis card.

Let the games begin gentlemen.

 

I just want to say, JP Losman looked good with that

 

I hope you are correct...I would eat a mountain of crow for a playoff appearance right now...heck I would eat a poop sandwich for a Superbowl...but alas.....I do not like bread.

don't get me wrong...I will be rooting like heck for him also......just see different things than you........

 

pfft brilliance... what a joke.. he was a dink and dunker behind an all world line... Ray Lucas would have looked "brilliant" behind that line.

 

One thing that Beck's critics always overlook (sometimes purposely) is the talent or lacktherof that he had surrounding him.

It would be hard for any QB to look good behind an OL that took two giant steps back after starting the season playing pretty well, without the offenses best player who was lost for the season long before Beck ever saw the field, with offensive playcalling that was embarrassing and bland, with a group of WR's that were either unmotivated and barely going through the motions (Marty Booker), or couldn't catch a cold (Derek Hagan) or weren't utilized properly (Ted Ginn). Even if that group were used properly and were motivated up the wazoo, they still would have been ranked in the bottom half of the league because the talent just isn't there.

Now consider that the original plan was to have Beck learn from the bench for the whole year much like Philip Rivers in SD. Because of that, he wasn't getting the necessary practice time with the first team, hell he was working with the practice squad. How is a young QB (or any QB for that matter) supposed to get into a rhythm with his receivers when he's practicing with the PC?

If anyone thinks that we've seen enough of Beck to properly evaluate him as a player, they really need to take a closer look at what happens on the field from the time that the C places his hand on the ball to the time when the whistle blows. To place the blame on one player without taking his supporting cast into consideration is silly and wrong.

 

Derrick Dockery, Jason Peters, Melvin Fowler, Langston Walker and Brad Butler....that all world line...........................we must live on different planets if that is an all world line...I will give you Peters....but.........that is a real stretch.............

Also his YPA was in the middle of the road and far better than any other rookie QB's. His over 20 and over 40 yard completion % were in the same area as Manning and Brady...or are they "dink and dunkers" also?......stats say he is not a "dink and dunker" and do not back up what you said............

 

Agree totally L2G.

His critics overlook the lack of talent around him and his supporters overlook his total ineptitude when he played...the way of the world.....my problem with jumping on the bandwagon is I do not see what I read...I do not see a strong arm, I do not see a team rallying around this great leader, I do see poor mechanics, poor protection of the ball and a guy stumbling all over the field....the rookie stuff does not explain the stumbling and bumbling all over the field.....to me that is a guy that is in over his head.........

Bottom line we will see. His critics will crucify him at the first bad play and his supporters will have another excuse why we should not evaluate what we see..........

 

Caused by?

Once the ball goes from Satele to the QB, it's the job of the OL to protect him and open holes for the running game, it's the job of the WR's to get open and hold onto the ball when it comes their way. If a QB is constantly under pressure, the running game is going nowhere and the WR's can't hold onto a pass.....how is a QB supposed to look?

I disagree. I saw a QB taht went that went through his progressions and more often than not had little time to do so. I saw a QB with a strong arm, but little time for plays to develop downfield. I saw a QB that showed nice touch on his passes, but his WR's couldn't pull in the catch. I saw a young Qb that was trying to adjust to the speed of the NFL game without being properly prepared to do so. I saw a Qb that made mistakes, but I also saw how poorly his supporting cast played.

It's the same as the "Ronnie is a bust" argument. First he was sharing time with Ricky during his rookie year, then his OL couldn't open up a running lane a year ago, he was routinely hit 2 and 3 yards behind the line of scrimmage. Fact is, once the OL started playing better, Ronnie looked better. The same should hold true when Beck's surrounding cast gets better.

That isn't the case at all, I will be the first one to speak my mind if he fails with a better supporting cast. I am a Miami Dolphins fan first and a John Beck fan second.

 

They were graded out as one of the best in the NFL last year.. that is the source of my "all workld" comment.. and of course he would have good numbers, like I said, Ray Lucas would have good numbers behind that line.

 

I think the Beck supporters are of the "jury is still out" variety. He was not good, but he was not in a good situation. It's fine to evaluate what we saw already. It's not fine, in my own opinion, to declare that evaluation over and conclusive.

 

I really haven't seen any John Beck supporters sing praises about how great he is. I have seen them say you can not pass judgment on a rookie working under the circumstances John Beck had to endure as you mentioned earlier. It's just unfair to John Beck and possibly the Miami Dolphins.

I think most of us John Beck supporters support what he stands for more than anything. Hard work, good character, total dedication to the game.

This year will be a different story and different set of criteria to judge him under. If he continues with the blunders let him put his degree to work. Starting positions are won on the practice field not the games. John Beck was denied that courtesy last year.

 

The Buffalo Bills line all world? They were good, but not all world. Not even close. Not even the dozens of Bills fans I know would claim that offensive line was all world or anything close to it. And Ray Lucas would have been good? Then how come J.P. Lossman played like garbage behind the same line?

 

crap, I HATE it when I do this... "I" was thinking the Browns offensive line the ENTIRE time I was making my lame argument. Thank you for catching it before I further embarrased myself.

 

I was frantically searching for a way to cover your back Marty, It just wasn't there! Ya wanna press on with it? I'm right beside ya bro.

 

The Browns Oline was good. If old man Jamal could put up good numbers behind it, they must have been doing something right!

 

JP http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/6781/gamelog;_ylt=AmDqT.YiH8ERIpjedDFos.b.uLYF

TE http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/8346/gamelog;_ylt=AmDqT.YiH8ERIpjedDFos.b.uLYF

Somebody, please convince me Trent Edwards played that much better. Please tell me it's not all about stats, because the stats tell me he wasn't all that great.

 

Take away that 111.4 turkey shoot he had against our defense and his QB rating was lower than John Becks.

 

I agree. I have talked to Bills fans that have stated the same thing, Edwards did not play that much better. I believe there was a ESPN analyst that stated the same.

 

I'm sorry, I pasted both links to Trent, not JP. Let me fix.

 

Really? Because I haven't heard one single Bills fan, and I know a lot of them, say they would rather have J.P. Lossman as QB over Trent Edwards. So rather than us Dolphin fans debating who was the better QB, I challenge anyone to find me one Bills fan who would rather have J.P. under center rather than Trent Edwards. I'll wait.

 

Yeah, cause Joe Montana didn't have Clark and Rice...

 

Nowhere did I state they would rather have J.P. under center, I stated that there are some that believe that Edwards did not play much better than Losman. That is the only statement I made regarding their QB position in that post.

 

I hear ya brother. Its lonely here in Reasonville. He must have an all world line. He must dink and dunk. He must have gotten lucky. No way can he be good. He's not John Beck. Its amazing the lengths people will go to prop up their points.

 

I have said this repeatedly. He was on a bad team. No doubt. He was the bad QB of the a very bad team.

 

You can't take it away. Take away John Beck's best game and his rating is much lower than Edwards. They all count.

 

It's great that people want to debate this topic, but if that debate starts turning into condescending remarks and one line insults, then we'll have to close the thread and deal with members accordingly. Please keep it civil and respect each others opinion.

 

I think you guys have this logic wrong. Its not that TE didn't play better than JPL...its that JPL didn't play better than TE. Edwards played well, bottom line.

 

Exactly. Even so much more to Edwards credit.

 

If I'm doin the writtin, I can do the takin.