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Do You Agree With the Trade of Vontae Davis for a 2nd?

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by shouright, Aug 26, 2012.

Do You Agree With the Trade of Vontae Davis for a 2nd?

  1. Yes

    48.1%
  2. No

    51.9%
  1. Clipse

    Clipse mediocrity sucks

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    Reading this thread I can't believe how many people are mad we got a 2nd rounder and a late rounder for Davis and think we should've got MORE. More? Has nobody watched this guy play? He's 3rd on the depth chart for a reason. If we somehow turn this into Mike Wallace, it will be one of the very few things Ireland has done right as a Miami Dolphin.
     
  2. dolfan22

    dolfan22 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    We have to see if that is true and if it is , after the proof he will get credit. To date we have no idea if that is true do we?
     
  3. dolfan22

    dolfan22 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    If we somehow turn this into Larry Fitzgerald it will also be one of the few things Ireland has done right... the point is what? Ireland has not done much right? Ok ... agreed.
     
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  4. Clipse

    Clipse mediocrity sucks

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    Exactly. Carroll has sucked on the football field. I don't care what Ireland says. Actions speak louder than words.
     
  5. Clipse

    Clipse mediocrity sucks

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    The point is, at least Ireland will have done something beneficial to the football team before he inevitably gets fired. A move that will benefit us long term.
     
  6. dolfan22

    dolfan22 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    Carroll is also older than Vonte.
     
  7. P h i N s A N i T y

    P h i N s A N i T y My Porpoise in Life

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    This is just more proof that the people who hate Ireland have little clue whats goin on...... the coaching staff was done with vontae.
     
  8. dolfan22

    dolfan22 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    The likelyhood of either WR being acquired for the second round pick we received is marginal at the very best imo.
     
  9. Nappy Roots

    Nappy Roots Well-Known Member

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    Unless we flip the 2nd for a really good wideout, then no. I don't like it.
     
  10. LennyV

    LennyV Member

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    Davis still had a year on his rookie deal, if we want to keep Smith he now has more leverage so we will need to pay more.
    Based on what I saw in the Falcons game I don't think Marshall is all that at CB and we will see that down the road.
     
  11. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    I have no idea if this turns out to be a good move or not.

    I do think its weird for people to say its a bad deal because now we have no depth or nickel corner, but would be pissed to all hell if we spent a 2nd for a depth or nickel CB.
     
  12. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    AGREE WITH THE TRADE.

    For some perspective, I look at it this way:
    If we hadn't signed Marshall we'd have SS, VD, and Carroll.
    Now we instead have SS, Marshall, Carroll, AND an extra 2nd & 6th.... and based on Vontae's demotion it looks like the better trio is SS, Marshall, and Carroll.


    So basically we swapped our #2 corner for Richard Marshall, a 2nd rounder, and 6th rounder. I'd say that's a win.
     
  13. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    Did I use the word "great" to describe him before?
    IMO, Vontae was our best man cover corner as of yesterday. Today he is gone, so it's a moot point.
     
  14. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    Yes, let's give Ireland credit where it is due. We have how many Pro Bowl caliber players, yet are as up against the cap right now as just about any team in the league?
     
  15. dolfan32323

    dolfan32323 ty xphinfanx

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    I think emotions and frustrations are running high because this team looks poised to put out a nice pile of steamy dog poo on the field this year. It could very well be a good trade- we're just tired of seeing our team be complete crap.
     
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  16. Da 'Fins

    Da 'Fins Season Ticket Holder Staff Member Club Member

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    I don't like Ireland at all. And I like this trade. Vontae has no motivation in Miami. He played a few good games the year before last where he looked like he had potential to be a poor man's Revis - but he's lost it. He is not starting. a 2nd and a later rounder? I will take it because this team is going NOwhere this year. It is a 5-11, 4-12 team that will have high picks next year and the DB's are terrible. The D in general is looking terrible.
     
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  17. brandon27

    brandon27 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    No. Davis has all the talent you want. He just needs someone to get his head into the game. It worked for his brother, Im sure it would work with him. Im not sure why, with a new coaching staff here they were not willing to work with him. Just because his attitude sucks, and he was lazy all offseason again, doesnt mean you cant coach that out of him. At least try... and not just preseason.

    Who's our #3 corner now... nolan carrol? Wow... now thats's great depth. In a league where passing is at a premium, and thus means CB's are as well... you can never have too man. Talent like that, is worth working for.

    Thats my reasons that surround VD himself...

    Now the other reason I disagree with it... Jeff Ireland has another 2nd round pick to blow.
     
  18. jorser

    jorser Well-Known Member

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    You can see the big picture. Re-build it now around T Hill, Bess, Long, Pouncey, Miller, and Clay on offense, and Starks, Solia, Odrick, Wake, and Smith on defense and Carpenter and Fields. Use the mulitiple high picks on skill positions and OL, with the balance on defense, and you should be able to plug many of the numerous holes with the 10 picks so far. FA money will go on our own, all IMHO. Starks, Long, Smith stay. Bush, Fasano, McDaniel, Moore ( if not traded before October) go. Davis didnt fit in. Leaves us thin, but add 2 next year. Jimmy Wilson and N Carroll grow in to key depth roles.

    This is turning in to a gut job. Is there Moore? Or will Bush be next? So, I like the trade, today. My final feelings will depend on what they do with 2 picks. Get it while you can though and build it with the draft. So the question is...........who will run this now franchise defining, very critical, 2013 draft??????
     
  19. Clipse

    Clipse mediocrity sucks

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    It doesn't matter what physical talent Davis might have. We got a 2nd round pick out of it. You don't turn down likely high 2nd round picks for lazy inconsistent players like Davis regardless if it creates a lack of depth. That lack of depth isn't going to matter much anyways since this team isn't winning anything this year.
     
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  20. jw3102

    jw3102 season ticket holder

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    Okay, I agree with you. It doesn't really matter, because 1st or 2nd round, he was still a bust.
     
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  21. Nappy Roots

    Nappy Roots Well-Known Member

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    ....you make a good point.
     
  22. jw3102

    jw3102 season ticket holder

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    The only chance the Dolphins have of being successful in the 2013 draft, is if Ireland is NOT the person making the selections for the Dolphins.
     
  23. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    This is a good point that's gone under the radar.

    Joe Philbin very clearly did not like Vontae Davis. Ireland has, for whatever reason, seemingly seceded some degree of decision making to Joe Philbin. It shouldn't be at all controversial to suggest Philbin agreed with or even prompted this move. Yet he's not even mentioned here.

    There's also the Kevin Coyle element which I've previously mentioned- The guy has had no end of ****-up and underachieving defensive backs with the Bengals. If Coyle had doubts with his ability to motivate and improve Davis, then that's a pretty big deal.
     
  24. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    In this case, the trade itself doesn't determine the value of the trade. The results of the future players acquired will determine its value.

    Any current bickering about the merit of the trade is nothing more than spinning our wheels.
     
  25. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    143 people have voted in this poll.

    If 8 of those people would've voted differently, the yes votes would outnumber the no votes.
     
  26. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    Why is there this massive assumption that he wasn't worked with by the coaching staff?

    Do you realize that demoting him lowers his trade value, and they did it anyway, probably partly to motivate him?

    I'm sure he was coached up much in the same way you see coaches paying good attention to players like Egnew (TE coach chastises him for not blocking and then praises him for doing so) and Roberto Wallace (Brian Gaine tells him he's got all the physical tools and asks him what's keeping him from putting it all together).

    There's only so much you can do here. There's an organization that needs to be run, and in the end these people are employees. These are adult men who get paid millions to play this game professionally. A demotion on the depth chart and the customary coaching attention, examples of which I mentioned above, should do the trick.

    You can't expect to have a winning team culture where hard work and professionalism are emphasized if you're willing to act in the capacity of babysitter or psychologist to underperforming players who need to take more personal responsibility for themselves and their profession.

    Those people get a shot across the bow (a demotion), the customary coaching attention, and then they're gone IMO.
     
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  27. Da 'Fins

    Da 'Fins Season Ticket Holder Staff Member Club Member

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    The guy came into this camp out of shape. This was with a brand new regime of coaches. He had every chance for a fresh start and he did not improve at all - but digressed b/c he was out of shape. Imo, he clearly had other stuff in his head beside football. Regardless he is entering the prime of his career and should have had the maturity and motivation to enter camp in great shape combined with an incredible work ethic as a mature player (mentally in the film room; technique-wise; and physical conditioning). He had none of that.

    If you forget where he was drafted and just looked at the player last year (esp. after that utter humiliation early in the season) and who came into camp - to get two draft picks including a 2nd (and a decent possibility of it being a pick in the top 10-15 of that round) - we got good value for him. He certainly has the raw physical talent to be very good; even an all-pro. But, that was not going to happen here.

    I know Ireland has hinted at another trade (using that pick) which might be interesting if they got serious value at the WR spot - a young veteran who can come in and play for the next 5-6 years with Tannehill can be a huge factor (but I wonder if we can really get decent value there...). But, right now, Miami has two 2nd round picks (both possibly in the top 10-12 picks of that round) and two 3rd round picks (one probably close to the end with the Bears likely to do well).

    There is a great value to hoarding multiple picks in a draft. It allows the team great flexibility to maneuver in the draft; it gives greater opportunities for trades both up (with more ammunition) and down (with more slots for which teams may be interested in trading up into for a particular player). If Miami, say, winds up 5-11 that puts them in a slot around 6-8 in round 1 - they have some ammunition to move up a slot or two in order to get a top player at a need position. Beyond that, without trading, these multiple picks also give them the ability to draft a number of players at different positions and that gives a team a better chance of striking gold.

    It doesn't matter how good a team is at drafting - every team misses multiple players every year (pick your teams that have been perennially successful - Steelers; Giants; Patriots; Ravens; etc.) - there are years they may get only one or two really good players in a draft.

    Given that Davis was not going to give this team any shot at the playoffs - and given the need for draft picks to help improve for the future - this is a really good move for Miami.

    And, it makes one of the greatest events of the NFL season (the draft) potentially a LOT more interesting for Dolphin fans.
     
  28. VanDolPhan

    VanDolPhan Club member Club Member

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    Voted yes. I pretty much summed up my thoughts in the other thread. Simply put Vontae was down to the #3 CB....his value would never have been higher for a cat who just wasn't showing any signs of growing up.

    There was a reason he dropped on draft day. The old regime took a shot/risk...it didn't pan out. It happens.
     
  29. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    Well said Da'Fins ^^^^
     
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  30. MonstBlitz

    MonstBlitz Nobody's Fart Catcher

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    This is just more proof that some fans will defend Ireland until he's fired no matter how many terrible or questionable roster moves he makes. Or how long he ignores positions crucial to success in today's NFL. First it was QB, now it's TE, WR, Safety, etc.

    I can't wait till the day he's canned. I'll be really interested to see the reaction of Ireland fan club on that day. I'm guessing you'll all pretend you never really liked him that much anyway. See: Chad Henne fan club for a great example.
     
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  31. nvdolfan

    nvdolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I don't think when the season started VD would have been the 3rd cornerback.
    Yes he came in out of shape. He came in out of shape last year but after the first few games was by far the best corner on the team. With the full preseason, VD was getting in shape and is a better tackler and cover guy than Marshall or SS.

    This reminds me a little bit of when we traded Welker for a 2nd round pick and people said we got good value, drove me nuts. Welker was worth more to us than a 2nd rounder, and so was VD. This one hurts.
     
  32. MonstBlitz

    MonstBlitz Nobody's Fart Catcher

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    To me this is worse than the Welker trade. Welker is a good WR who has benefited from playing with a HoF QB and a great offensive system. If we had kept him, he wouldn't be considered the stud he is today, he would just be considered a very solid WR, IMHO.

    VD is a guy who doesn't need a good QB to produce since he plays defense. And he can help slow down the stud WRs and QBs in this league. And we just got rid of him for a 2nd that is not worth anything in the hands of the inept Jeffrey Ireland.

    The Ireland Kool-Aid drinkers will continue to call VD a 3rd CB but you've got the truth of it. He was a dominant player for our Miami Dolphins more times than not. For anyone to suggest otherwise is revisionist history. Fans tend to think dominant CBs aren't dominant because you don't here their names often during a game. But the truth is, you're not supposed to hear a dominant CBs name much in a game. It means they're doing their job. So because we didn't hear much about Vontae in many of those games as he locked down WRs like Randy Moss, fans tend to think he wasn't dominant. Not true. Revisionist history.
     
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  33. RevRick

    RevRick Long Haired Leaping Gnome Club Member

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    You know, this board has usually been a site that had a little class. This post has helped lower that quite a bit. Davis has, at best, been underperforming for the last two years, and has wasted two years of learning his craft to go along with admittedly formidable skills. That is not being a professional. Patrick Surtain was a professional. Sam Madison was a professional. Davis, right now, is a wannabe professional football player. His head is not in the game, and that is a bad influence on the rest of the team. If he had lived up to his draft position, we would not be having this poll.
     
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  34. Two Tacos

    Two Tacos Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I'm tired of the revisionist history on welker. He was a restricted free agent that signed a poison pill contract that miami couldn't match. The league stepped in and turned it into a trade. He didn't want to be here.

    Sent from my SGH-T959V using Tapatalk 2
     
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  35. finyank13

    finyank13 Reality Check

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    You have to axe yourself this....

    Would Vontae make this team, win more games than they are going to win? Listen guys he is one year away from a walk year, where it was going to be very hard to retain him via free agency. I don't think they would have spent the money on him.....I think the comp was ok.....that 2nd could be a top 10 in the 2nd round...
     
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  36. SuperMarksBros.

    SuperMarksBros. Active Member

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    Getting a high #2 for Vontae is fine, I just dont have very much confidence that the guy in charge of talent procurement is going to do very much with it.
     
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  37. Clark Kent

    Clark Kent Fighter of the Nightman

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    the guy lead the team in INT in 2/3 years here in Miami... He was by FAR the most productive member of our secondary. He's still a young guy with tons of upside with a rookie contract. I wish he came into training camp in better shape, but he didn't. It's not the end of the world as most fans want to make it out to be. Getting ready for 16 games is the goal of camp anyway. He seemed to really be coming on strong once again.

    It seems pretty clear that some fans are deluding themselves into believing this can be made into a good thing... Whether you agree with the "class" of that post, it kind of does reflect what happens a lot around here. A decision by the front office is made and fans turn on a player in an effort to show team support.

    Let's call it like it is. Miami wasted the 2009 1st round pick and passed over Hakeem Nicks (who I and many others wanted) and Clay Matthews for a 2013 2nd rounder. Worst of all, given Ireland's ability to draft, it's likely a miss, when we had a hit to begin with. There is nothing good about this. Even if we get Mike Wallace, who is a one trick pony, it still doesn't make up for it.
     
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  38. Lloyd Heilbrunn

    Lloyd Heilbrunn Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    And, it makes the greatest event of the NFL season (the season) potentially a LOT less interesting for Dolphin fans.
     
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  39. MonstBlitz

    MonstBlitz Nobody's Fart Catcher

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    It's a good point you make here. Take a look at the thread when this trade was still a rumor and Vontae Davis was still a Dolphin. Most fans thought it was crazy and in that thread VD was not discussed as being a "3rd cornerback".

    Once it's official how quickly fans change their minds and start churning the pro-Ireland spin. They'll bail on Ireland too once he's finally fired. And they will pretend they never liked him much anyway. And the new GM will be Mr. CanDoNoWrong.
     
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  40. GridIronKing34

    GridIronKing34 Silently Judging You

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    You know it's sad... I don't think highly of Ireland but I don't think poorly of him. But I am sure because I am not *****ing about this trade I would be lumped in with the black and white generalization concerning pro/anti Ireland. Not many former 1st round picks would go for a 2nd round pick four years later, especially when that player hasn't separated himself as a top player at his respective position in the NFL. Davis has made some athletic plays resulting in turnovers but lets not ignore the big plays and mental errors he has made that the stats don't show. Could Davis be a top 5 CB in this league? Absolutely... but its year 4 and we're still saying what he could be. You can only make your decision based on potential for so long. He's not worth a first round pick at this point and at some point you gotta look at what you can recoup. A 2nd round pick seems fair value to me considering we will likely extend Sean Smith who appears to have taken the next step. I am trying to think of this logically but I am sure it will be dismissed as pro-Ireland trash by half the forum.
     

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