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Sun Sentinel Article: Trading Down an option

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Trackstar, Dec 19, 2007.

  1. Trackstar

    Trackstar Season Ticket Holder Luxury Box

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    http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/football/pro/dolphins/sfl-flspdoldraft19sbdec19,0,1658308.story

    I will go ahead and say it now. I don't think John Beck is the answer as well. However, it's unfair to judge him completely when you have defenders in your face as soon as the ball is snapped. But I think we need a towering franchise QB like Matt Ryan. I think Beck will make a great backup one day, I just don't see him being a great NFL QB as of now. He had a chance to show something and he showed very little.
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2007
  2. Carabinieri44

    Carabinieri44 New Member

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    i mean the guy played well in his first 2 games, 0 TDs, but he still made good throws and decisions. after that he went downhill. for a 27 year old guy, he needs to be ready ASAP.
     
  3. Motion

    Motion New Member

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    I'm not ready to give up on Beck yet, but if we take any QB high I hope its Andre Woodson. Ryan is a TO machine IMO, not a "Towering Franchise QB". Although, I'm not so sure we spend a high pick on a QB again anyway. Depends on who the GM is next season most likely. I would love to see us trade down though. We have plenty of holes to fill.
     
  4. LouPhinFan

    LouPhinFan New Member

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    Come on Motion, so you want a QB that's less mobile than we have now, has a slow release, and has trouble holding on to the football? Woodson doesn't make good decisions in a collapsing pocket and probably never will. I've seen that guy for 2 years now and he's not a NFL starting QB. I seriously doubt we will be taking a QB with our first round pick anyways.
     
  5. Trackstar

    Trackstar Season Ticket Holder Luxury Box

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    To be fair and honest I'm going off of what I saw in two games and also Mike Mayock's analysis of Ryan. In October Mayock was asked if the Dolphins should start Beck, his answer was "They should start Beck and find out if he is the franchise QB they are looking for. If he isn't there is a "franchise QB" in this years draft and his name is Matt Ryan".

    And yes you are right, the guy has way to many Turnovers for a franchise QB.

    I'm not ready to give up on Beck either, I think he can be better than Drew Brees. But I'm just not willing to put all our eggs in that basket. The QB position is just to important to risk it.
     
  6. Frumundah Finnatic

    Frumundah Finnatic U Mad Miami?

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    Ryan doesnt impress me.
    Neither does Brennan.

    Take Glen Dorsey or Jake Long.
     
  7. Zach13

    Zach13 Season Ticket Holder

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    Take Matt Ryan.

    Let him and Beck battle it out.

    Unless and until we get a franchise QB we will never be an excellent team again.
     
  8. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    Article just backs up what a few of us have been saying for awhile now. Matt Ryan will be considered and McFadden wont
     
  9. zackattack54

    zackattack54 New Member

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    Gholston is the best Defensive player on the board hands down. For those of you in doubt, just watch the National Championship Game and see him dominate.
     
  10. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Dolfans have two great reasons to watch the BCS title game:

    Glenn Dorsey
    Gholston

    Should be fun to watch...:ffic:
     
  11. BIG_FISH_RI

    BIG_FISH_RI New Member

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    I think Beck is fine. I will not give up on him YET. However we need to make a determination quick fast and in a hurry. I like Matt Ryan. simply put the kid is a winner. He has that it factor much like Romo. You can't teach it.
    I don't think Ryan is a 1st over all pick BUT he may be becasue he fits the need for the team picking 1st over all. and if we don't take him Atlanta will with the 4th or 5th pick.
     
  12. Trackstar

    Trackstar Season Ticket Holder Luxury Box

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    Brady didn't impress in college either. He just won games. Same thing with Ryan. But I do agree if he is selected early it should be no earlier than around pick 5. He does turn the ball over way too much and he needs work.

    He's a gamer Imo. Give him a great O-line and good receivers and I think he will do very well in the NFL.
     
  13. mmikel30

    mmikel30 New Member

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    dosen't B.C. have a good line cherilus etc.
     
  14. Motion

    Motion New Member

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    Too each their own.

    And I agree, no QB in the first.
     
  15. REV KEV

    REV KEV New Member

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    Brady won games...? I like what little I saw of Ryan..., most of all we need talent at the position and we competition to push players
     
  16. Trackstar

    Trackstar Season Ticket Holder Luxury Box

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    I honestly wouldn't know. I only watched Boston College play twice this year and they seemed to be pretty good Offensively, then again that was only two games.
     
  17. Motion

    Motion New Member

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    No bias there :lol:

    He's definitely a talented player but not the best by any means.
     
  18. FinSane

    FinSane Cynical Dolphins Fan

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    I think we should grab a QB only if we do the trade down scenario. Otherwise, now is the time to shore up our defense and grab a playmaker on offense and a lineman or two.
     
  19. Mr772

    Mr772 New Member

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    I would opt for Chris Long living close by to C'ville and seeing him play he reminds me a lot of Richard Seymour.
     
  20. Trackstar

    Trackstar Season Ticket Holder Luxury Box

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    I think trading down is the best idea. The problem is finding teams with the desire/ammunition to move up and give us value for that pick.
     
  21. FINintheMOON

    FINintheMOON Moderator Luxury Box

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    I honestly think we should be looking for defense in the 1st 3 pick this draft... That is where the difference is made in most ball games. If you have a rookie QB, with a sound defense, then a mistake or 2 can be overcome by the defense...

    As far as QBs, I have a feeling that CLEO will be our starter next year... This kid is 1 step away from a BREES or Anderson in my opinion... Maybe even a McNabb... He has 7 starts under his belt and the game against the Ravens was a nice game... 93% passer rating, 315 yards, 1 TD, ZERO INTS! Now can this be disputed as a fluke game against one of the better known defenses in the league? Sure it can... But since he has come back in, he has led drives to scores...

    I am telling you all one thing right now... This kid has what it takes and the only thing he needs is a little time...
     
  22. Stitches

    Stitches ThePhin's Biggest Killjoy Luxury Box

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    Ken, I expect the 1st 3 picks to be defense. Only because that is where I expect the best talent to be at when we make our selections.

    As I have said before, the best thing about this team(or worst), is that we have a legitimate hole everywhere (except K and C, probably RB too). That will afford us the opportunity to simply pick BPA with each and every selection. And that probably means defense.

    Watch us pick defense at #1 though, and wind up with OL, WR, or TE (2 of the 3) with both picks in the 2nd round, lol.
     
  23. Deus ex dolphin

    Deus ex dolphin Well-Known Member

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    The defense needs more help than the offense, so I agree the first couple picks will be on that side of the ball. As for Lemon?

    It was a fluke game versus the Ravens. First, he was throwing against the #3 and #4 CBs of the Ravens, second he missed a number of open recievers, third, he still makes stupid mental errors like running out of bounds and losing 7 yds and putting the Phins out of FG range.

    Lemon is #2 QB material, on a good day. He has been in the NFL for what, four years now? He has a better grasp of the offensive system Cam runs than Beck, but I don't see the upside with Cleo.

    I'd love to tell you I'm sold that Beck is the answer, but that is uncertain. You do need to give John 08, with more talent around him, and expect major progress. If he falters, you draft another QB in 09, and the Phins will have another high one if Beck stumbles in 08.
     
  24. FINintheMOON

    FINintheMOON Moderator Luxury Box

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    Dues... BREES was about to be sent to the bench after his premiere year, as well as a couple of other QBs that started out badly... I can run through many names that either started badly or came into their own after playing backup for a couple of years at QB...

    I don't think this game was a fluke... I think this kid has talent that has yet to be tapped... He needs time... Those plays where he ran out of bounds and hesitated running the ball is merely an indecision that can be corrected easily... I am willing to be that you will not see thee same thing with him this week...

    I think CAM is addressing the issue with those plays in practice this week... If I was CAM, I would tell him point blank that if you are flushed from the pocket and see no open receivers, you tuck it and run...
     
  25. NaboCane

    NaboCane Banned

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    :lol: i love it.

    i don't know if he's right about beck, it's hard to tell with as little protection he got from the same line that managed to pass-block quite a bit better for lemon than for him.

    but then again, that's the excuse made for every dud bomb that we've had parade through here clear back to fiedler, and i'm done with leeway and waiting, and every other self-deception, myself.

    if we do keep the 1st overall pick, at this point i'd take ryan. i like brennan too, but have questions about his consistency against top competition and that's not something you want in a #1 pick; much less at quarterback.

    i would take brennan starting around the mid-1st, though, when the elite talent starts to thin.

    that's right; although personally, i like otah better. but that's not to say that i wouldn't take long either. both are going to be fine tackles at the next level.

    but think of this: with two 1st-round picks, we could possibly pick up otah/long and either gosder cherilus or chris williams from vandy.

    instant excellent offensive line - just add picks.

    plus, i don't believe at all that dorsey projects as the nose tackle we need to start building a defense for the future, at 295 pounds and knowing that if he adds any more weight he will only aggravate those knee and back issues.

    chiris long projects better at de, with 284 pounds on a 6'4" frame.

    however, he is not the absolutely dominant de you would want in a pick with as high a value as the #1 overall; he had 14 sacks in his senior season, but only 7 total sacks in the three seasons before that.

    given a dataset of three mediocre years and one great year, you have to at least question whether the kid is worth an investment of that magnitude. and with that kind of question hanging out there, i don't think you could make a solid case for that pick.

    especially when you could get rivers from hawaii in the 2nd, maybe 3rd round. i believe he'll be a fast riser after the combine though, and might sneak into the 1st round. regardless i believe he'll be another larry fitzgerald-type receiver at the next level.

    then again, i thought hagan would be really good. :001_rolleyes:



    and that, my friends, is the essential name of THAT tune.

    we must trade down, value be damned to a certain extent - say, within 20% of "book" value.

    if we only got a 1st and a 2nd, that would enable us to totally finish fixing the ol in one draft, and through the increased number of picks, still allow us to start rebuilding the defense from the middle out, the way it should be.

    and that is why it is essential that a decision be made on cameron and/or mueller sooner than later, so that the new administration - if there is one - can be the ones to make the first-hand observations which will shape the franchise for years to come.
     
  26. Motion

    Motion New Member

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    Interesting thought Nabo, although I was thinking the same reasoning for not wanting Ryan. IMO there is no QB worth a Top 10 pick this draft, let alone #1. How much of Ryan have you seen? And what do you think of his constant turnovers?
     
  27. NaboCane

    NaboCane Banned

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    and ken, brees has been inconsistent at best in his career, now five years in.

    i don't believe one can judge EVERYTHING about a young qb in one season; but man, if you don't take at least some of what you see at face value, then no evidence whatsoever could be collected in any player's first couple years - and that's simply illogical.

    when a qb starts out as badly as beck has, you owe it to your team to AT LEAST hedge your bets; otherwise, as a personnel exec you're simply not performing your due diligence.

    and if you end up with two excellent players at the most important position in football, well then - what a nice problem to have, right?! :thumbup:
     
  28. Trackstar

    Trackstar Season Ticket Holder Luxury Box

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    Even though I was singing Matt Ryan's praises, I still think drafting defense with the first pick is the best idea. Our defense is just terrible and begging for young talent. Dorsey can change the complexity of a D-line overnight.

    However, I am not sold on Ceo Lemon. He has flaws that are only correctable to a certain degree. He looks like a thrower and not a passer. He waits too long to throw the ball which means he has trouble anticipating throwing windows. He also has accuracy problems, during the Baltimore game he missed on some throws to wide open receivers.

    The accuracy thing is what scares me the most being it's the hardest flaw for a QB to overcome.

    We better hope Beck is as good as Cam thinks he was when he and Randy drafted him. Otherwise we will not be a great offense.
     
  29. NaboCane

    NaboCane Banned

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    normally i'd be all over this, but i see little defensive talent this year that rates as high as last year's; whereas, i do see offensive line talent that is well worth investing in.

    and that route has both value and need benefits for us.
     
  30. Trackstar

    Trackstar Season Ticket Holder Luxury Box

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    I like the way you think. I can go either way in this draft. I would be happy drafting Long or Dorsey, I'd also be happy getting a stud QB. The QB position is THE most important position and it's time we get it right.
     
  31. Stitches

    Stitches ThePhin's Biggest Killjoy Luxury Box

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    Clady is the only OL that I like in the top 10, and if he even declares, #1 might be a stretch (not that I would be opposed).
     
  32. NaboCane

    NaboCane Banned

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    i watched bc this season against miami, nd, nc state, gt, florida state and vt. that is a high level of competition, and mostly why i like ryan more than brennan...although man, brennan is so tempting because of his gunslinger background!

    i really believe that ryan's issues are largely a matter of learning to make better reads and improving his decision-making, which are teachable by a good qb coach. we'll just have to get us one of them there coaches!

    seriously though, his mediocre rating in college could have been dramatically improved if he had simply been held to a higher standard by his coaches at bc. i do believe it is something that wouldn't be an issue by about his second year in the pros.
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2007
  33. NaboCane

    NaboCane Banned

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    lemon, despite that fluke pass to camarillo to win in ot, was simply horrible throughout that entire game - horrible. no way lemon is a starter in this league, he would have shown it by now.

    you're right in that observation about being a thrower vs. a passer. he is little more than an arm, and that doesn't cut it.
     
  34. Motion

    Motion New Member

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    Fair enough. Is that someone you use the #1 overall pick on though??

    I don't know. I would hope that the #1 overall pick will be someone that could contribute immediately and step right into starting role. Although, my first choice would be to trade down, we just have so many holes to fill. I think Brennan in the 2nd would actually be better value, especially if Cam is back next season. Brennan's quick decisions and quick release would be a perfect fit in Cam's offense. I'm still holding out hope that Beck will come through though. We have so many holes to fill without having to take another QB high this year.
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2007
  35. NaboCane

    NaboCane Banned

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    i like clady a lot; but you have to take into consideration the level of competition with him. will he be as dominant in the pro's, where everyone is as strong as he is? because he doesn't project as a guard much, and at tackle he absolutely must be dominant to be taken high in the 1st.
     
  36. NaboCane

    NaboCane Banned

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    that's an excellent point, and a good question to ask well before you have to turn in that all-important card.
     
  37. NaboCane

    NaboCane Banned

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    yeah, it's that about brennan which is so tantalizing!
     
  38. FINintheMOON

    FINintheMOON Moderator Luxury Box

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    I hear what you are saying... And I agree with it... However, BREES, as inconsistant as you think he may be, has made quite the impact over the past couple of years... Hell, there were many, including you, that thought BREES was a better choice over Culpepper... BTW, I was one of them as well... However, my point is that YOU CAN'T judge a player on a single season... There are other elements to the game that impacts their play...

    Look at Randy Moss for example... He struggled the last 2 years with Oakland and the final year or 2 with Minnesota... Now he is on the top of the list of receivers again!!! Why is that?

    Agreed... And I am not saying that BECK will not be a great QB, but that he was thrown into this mess of a team was wrong and that he deserved a better start to his career... CLEO knows this team and knows CAM's offense... He is the best candidate to start next year... His last game was impressive and I think he has the potential to build on that, even with the hell that this team has been through in the past 3.5 months...

    And I think that is what we will have... 2 excellent QBs next year and going forward...
     
  39. Trackstar

    Trackstar Season Ticket Holder Luxury Box

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    His name is Cam Cameron....Drew Brees, Phillip Rivers. :thumbup:
     
  40. FINintheMOON

    FINintheMOON Moderator Luxury Box

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    How in the hell can you say Lemon was horrible? I would like to see what your definition of good is...
     

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