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Discussion on what went wrong since the Shula/Marino days

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by RickyNeverInhaled, Sep 6, 2012.

  1. RickyNeverInhaled

    RickyNeverInhaled Well-Known Member

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    I have been thinking about this a lot lately. Those of you who were adults back in those days would know more than I would because i was just a kid that watched every game but never did any research.

    Here's my take on it. We never planned for the future. I guess the Dolphins orginazation thought Marino would play forever! The fact that we never used a first round pick for a QB after Marino, til we drafted Tannehill was a huge mistake! There is several people to blame for this.

    Not only have we never found the right QB since Marino, we never found the right GM and Head Coach since the Shula/Marino days. Hopefully our current GM and Head Coach are the right men for the job, but who knows? We all know that's up for debate, but time is necesarry to truly find out the answer to that question.

    i don't want this to turn into another Ireland bashing thread, at least until the proper time in this thread. I would love to do the proper reseach on all the GM's and Head Coaches and even Owners since those days, but I don't have internet at my house and I can only get online on my crappy pre-paid phone that won't even give me an address bar unless I go to my home page and I can't copy and paste anyway. So i am counting on everyone to do the research so we can all discuss it.

    My theory is that the first stage of blame goes to whoever was in charge during the Shula/Marino days because they failed to plan for the future and coasted on their talent until key players retired.

    The key to success is to always have talented players ready to replace current talented players at every position. The 53 man roster and the salary cap keeps any team from being able to successfully do that at every position. The QB position is by far the most important position to plan for the future. If Tannehill is our franchise QB, whoever is in charge 3-4 years before Tannehill's projected retirement better be ready to fire off another first round QB pick.
     
  2. RickyNeverInhaled

    RickyNeverInhaled Well-Known Member

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    Someone suggested to me that I use capital letters and seperate my paragraphs because they found my posts hard to read. To appease that person I used capital letters and double spaced between paragraphs, but i guess there's something about my phone and/or the mobile version of this website that will not let me space out paragraphs. Oh well, i tried! lol
     
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  3. gafinfan

    gafinfan gunner Club Member

    Out of the mouth of babes ... Don Shula was the man in charge. A wonderful HC who couldn't pick a good RB if he was given one on a Silver Platter! The only time he lucked out "Overstreet" the kid was killed in an Auto accident.

    He also put us in CAP hell with his loaded 1995 team of over paid vets!

    With all that being said he was one hell of a Head Coach!
     
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  4. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    What our major problems have been revolves around the lack of players developing in Miami, it really is that simple.

    Since the Shula days:

    Zach
    JT
    Wake

    Think about all of the draft busts and FA busts since Shula packed it in, for the Dolphins Ted Ginn is more the rule then the exception, until that changes we just won't be very good consistently.
     
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  5. Stitches

    Stitches ThePhin's Biggest Killjoy Luxury Box

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    It's sooooooooooo much better IMO. :lol:
     
  6. jsizzle

    jsizzle Banned

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    Shula picking JJ was the beginning of the end. Another defensive minded coach in an era when QBs were becoming more and more important. He couldn't draft offense to save his life.
     
  7. jupiterfin

    jupiterfin Mild Irritant

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    Jimmy Johnson being Shula's replacement, should have been here longer than 3 years. That was the first problem, then Wannstedts refusal to legitimately upgrade our QB position during Fieldlers run. The Ricky trade robbed us of 2, 1st rd. picks. Also, all our drafts were crap during Wannstedts run.

    Saban taking Daunte over Brees. Saban high tailing it when he realized he screwed up.

    Cam Cameron.

    Bill Parcells getting blindsided by Wayne selling the team and then bolting cause he didn't like Ross.

    Basically, it's been a mess because of bad personnel decisions and flighty coaches who think their **** doesn't stink.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  8. PhinGeneral

    PhinGeneral PC Texas A&M, Bro Club Member

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    Shula didn't pick JJ, Huizenga did. Shula was forced into retirement. JJ at least built a defense that made this team competitive. He just didn't do well enough, but he left a team with a solid core. He should have drafted a possible successor to Marino, but I don't think the team truly started to go downhill until after Wannstadt took over.
     
  9. Lee2000

    Lee2000 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    In my strong opinion, player development, personnel decisions, and 3000 qbs since Marino is definitely part of it. Just some terrible drafting in the first decade of this century. I read a post yesterday that Miami was rated the worst drafting team over the last three years. When you look what Wanny did to this team through the draft it set the franchise back for a long time. Player development has been spotty at best. Guys like Bess have done well, but for every Bess there are three that don't develop. If you had to group all the issues into one category it goes to personnel decisions made over the last 15 years.
     
  10. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    The beginning of the end was when Shula became GM.

    Whether Ireland and/or Philbin sucks or not, at the very least the team is structured correctly for the first time since then.

    Padre is right, we don't develop talent and that happens when starting with Shula's "Great FA Grab" we have either coaches calling the draft or theirs too much pressure to win now.
     
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  11. firedan

    firedan Well-Known Member

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    Shula wanted Schotenheimer(Marty) if I recall correctly.
     
  12. Larryfinfan

    Larryfinfan 17-0...Priceless Club Member

    I don' think it's any one person or regime's fault but perhaps the Wanny years were the biggest dip in lack of developing players as any era in any sport. We were just successful enough (although those of us who followed the team knew we weren't built to win late in the year) that Wanny's lack of personnel skills were overlooked by ownership. Since then, we've had several regimes that have failed. The thing is though, the NFL has changed greatly during this time as well. The ability to rebuild/retool quickly is now a reality, but we've either not had the right guys in place (Mueller, Saban) or they've done well, but quit on us (JJ, Parcells). Coaching on the field has not been adequate (Wanny, Cam-Cam, Sparano). Each successive regime has had to rebuild again from the previous group. Saban, for all the hate we have for him, probably did the best in retooling the franchise with talent (after the disastrous Wanny years and Cam-Cam's quick pass thru Davie). Ireland has been up and down because of the turmoil in the FO (now a completely new coaching staff, on-again--off-again Quitcells, Sparano not utilizing/developing players, new ownership/direction).

    There is no one problem that has caused our lack of success since Shula retired. If you had to name one thing, bad personnel acquisition is the culprit but it goes further than that. The combination of poor ownership, poor NFL business and poor coaching has been just as important to our lack of success as bad personnel...
     
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  13. gunn34

    gunn34 I miss Don & Dan

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    Wanny was the worst mistake this franchise ever made in my opinion.

    That is correct.
     
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  14. Bumrush

    Bumrush Stable Genius Club Member

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    Jimmy Johnson needed to clean house when he arrived. And yes, that meant trading Marino and putting his stamp on the team. They never meshed well together and it hurt the development of the team.

    Even Jimmy couldn't face the backlash, and the rest is history.
     
  15. Desides

    Desides Well-Known Member

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    This isn't true. Parcells was aware that Huizenga was going to sell the team when he signed his deal in 2007.
     
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  16. RevRick

    RevRick Long Haired Leaping Gnome Club Member

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    Most of the posts here have it right. Shula was a great, great head coach - and an utter failure as a GM.

    Jimmy Johnson should have never been hired as the Dolphins Head Coach. He is not as good as his reputation was.

    Dave Wannstedt should never have been a head coach. Anyone who watched what happened in Chicago knew that his tenure as coach was going to 'kill' the dolphins. Some of the posters on this board were on other boards with me at that time, and we were the decided minority in holding that opinion.

    I would have given Bates some time, and put a strong GM in place. But Huzienga had stars in his eyes.. Wayne is a good business man, but does not know football.

    Collectively, Cameron, Saban, and the Parcells experiment were unmitigated disasters, and not worth the powder to blow them up. The only one who seems to have any real current understanding of the game is Ireland - and I can just about imagine that Ireland working under Parcells was about like being Bob Cratchit working under the early Scrooge!

    I have hopes (well, I AM a fan!) for the current leadership organization. I will not hold my breath, though. But I don't have the feeling of gloom, dispair, and agony on me I had with everything after Shula left.
     
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  17. jupiterfin

    jupiterfin Mild Irritant

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    Armando had a different version of events that he tweeted about a few days ago. https://mobile.twitter.com/ArmandoSalguero/tweets

    Basically he claims Parcells was told Wayne wouldn't sell the team, but then several months later Wayne changed his mind again.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  18. Desides

    Desides Well-Known Member

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    This would be news to Parcells, who stated that Huizenga told him he was planning to sell the team. That's a big reason why Parcells was able to get that golden parachute built into his contract.
     
  19. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    Jimmy Johnson's mother dying which got him to lose his fire for coaching. Which caused the Dolphins to bring in Wansteadt to help him out. Then turning over the keys to Wansteadt who is a terrible GM.

    After that it is not finding the right guys.

    Cam Cameron was put in a terrible situation, Nick Saban just liked the college game more and Parcells was a little too old school in thinking.
     
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  20. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    Huizenga giving head coaches total control.
     
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  21. jupiterfin

    jupiterfin Mild Irritant

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    Well, it wouldn't be the first time Armando was wrong, but the time line he lays out makes sense. You can read about it in the link I posted... Go back 2 days or so.



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  22. jsizzle

    jsizzle Banned

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    Let's look at some of JJ's genius drafts picks on offense...

    John Avery ( over Randy Moss might I add!)
    JJ Johnson, worthless
    Yatil Green, even more worthless
    Cecil the Diesel, rapist
    Karim Abdul Jabbar, at least he got 1000 yards once. Then he became worthless.

    That's just the ones I remember, I am sure there are even worse examples.
     
  23. Bumrush

    Bumrush Stable Genius Club Member

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    Passing on Brees so we didn't hurt Jay Fiedlers feelings.

    62-7

    Late season collapses

    Dave W and his drafts (remember when we traded up to select Vernon Carey when the Vikings bluffed us?)
     
  24. Nappy Roots

    Nappy Roots Well-Known Member

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    Yea a 4th to move up 1 slot
     
  25. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    Avery was a huge mistake.

    Yatil Green did blow his knee out twice.

    Cecil was a 5th round pick.

    JJ and Karim were 3rd round picks.

    No GM is 100%. I thought he did the best drafting in Miami for the last 20 years. He did an excellent job in getting defensive players. Drafting two really good to great corners, and two arguably hall of fame players in Zach and Jason Taylor.
     
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  26. jsizzle

    jsizzle Banned

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    I specifically said OFFENSE, not defense. Defense was all he knew.
     
  27. xphinfanx

    xphinfanx Stay strong my friends.

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    I like this answer.
    I believe if Jimmy Johnsons heart could have stayed into coaching he would have found a good QB he did have Troy Aikman in Dallas and he knows you need a good QB. Marino was a folk hero here and Jimmy was stuck with Marinos last years packing a foot brace around. I loved Marino but it seemed awkward.
     
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  28. mi2cents

    mi2cents New Member


    I would also add the Death of Joe Robbie (He really DID have a clue) and the loosing of Bill Arnsparger to LSU. I can't remember his name(Bobby Beathard)..but he was the barefooted,surfing dude from Calf. Our GM until poached by Washington (iirc)
     
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  29. DOLFAN91

    DOLFAN91 New Member

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    It's simple; other than Jimmy Johnson, no other coach or GM Drafted well. Johnson certainly hit on Defense but the offense had nothing to speak of, that remotely looked like a Pro Bowl player. Drafting has really lacked in Miami even when Shula was heading things up.
     
  30. jsizzle

    jsizzle Banned

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    Yes, who can forget "Billy-Bob Milner from East-West Texas State??? Worst pick ever!
     
  31. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    I agree, if Miami won a super bowl without Marino it would have been bitter sweet. Well of course, that is my opinion. Even though Marino was not at his best, I do think he was good enough to win a Superbowl with if he had the right talent around him.

    JJ did have a comedy of errors plus misfortune on offense, such as letting Irving Fryer go, not going after Andre Rison, Larry Shannon AND Yatil Green blowing out their knees, pushing KAJ when Parmalee was a better runningback and better all around runningback, pissing off Keith Byars and drafting John Avery to name a few.
     
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  32. unifiedtheory

    unifiedtheory Sub Pending Luxury Box

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    The 3 time World Championship Dallas Cowboy teams he built disagree with that statement.
     
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  33. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I was beginning to wonder about you Rick.
     
  34. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Poor talent evaluations.

    When we had a Qb, we had no defense or run game, when when we had a defense and running game, we had no Qb.

    I don't like how we've drafted for 30 years.
     
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  35. Tin Indian

    Tin Indian Rockin' The Bottom End Club Member

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    Dave Wannstadt. Making him Head Coach with all the power over personnel decisions was a killer. After that Sabans wishy-washiness and Fail Forward Fast Cameron was just one disaster after another. The complete and utter lack any real attempt at a franchise Qb til this draft is another.
     
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  36. Tin Indian

    Tin Indian Rockin' The Bottom End Club Member

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    True enough, Even Shula should never had control over personnel. Head coaches should never play at being a GM.
     
  37. unifiedtheory

    unifiedtheory Sub Pending Luxury Box

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    Shula had a decade of HORRID drafting. Go back and look, it is a horror show.

    If he had not hit on Marino we would have hit rock bottom in 1984 instead of going 14-2. Marino made us relevant and competitive.

    The title of the thread is "what went wrong since the Shula/Marino days". There was a lot going wrong DURING those days and Shula was the cause of it all.

    Shula:

    - Failed to address the running game during Danny's entire career in an era when running the ball was a necessity.
    - Missed on COUNTLESS high draft picks on defense. He failed the defense for years and years.
    - Failed to address the offensive line. Yes, the sack numbers were low but that was all about Danny's ability to slide in the pocket and get rid of the damn thing. The offensive line was mediocre or worse during Danny's entire career.

    Jimmy:

    - Bad luck with his offensive picks (Yatil Green, JJ Johnson etc.)
    - Not addressing the need for a young quarterback to groom.
    - Being stuck in cap HELL left behind by Shula.

    Wannstedt:

    - Sticking with Fiedler. "There is nothing Trent Green can do that Jay Fiedler can't do". Having a trade for Matt Hasselbeck in the bag and passing on it.
    - Being ULTRA conservative.
    - Allowing the depth Jimmy had built on defense to all walk away and not replacing it.
    - HORRID drafts. This could go on forever. Picking Jamar Fletcher (when we had the best corner tandem in football locked in long term, passing on Drew Brees). Picking Eddie ****ing Moore. This list could take all damn day.
    - Overpaying out the *** for Ricky Williams.

    Wayne Huizenga:

    - Begging Jimmy to stay when he wanted to quit.
    - Allowing Jimmy to hand the keys to Dave Wannstedt, who had already failed miserably when he had the keys to the Bears.
    - Not firing Dave Wannstedt after the 2002 season. We were the best team in the AFC and had to win our last 2 games against the poor Vikings team (lobster trap) and blew a big lead in Foxborough. He should have fired Wannstedt on the plane. Instead he allowed Wanny to run the core into the ground for another year instead of allowing fresh ideas into the room. This was the biggest failing of the last 20 years of this franchise in my opinion.

    Rick Spielman:

    - AJ Feeley. I still think this was worth the chance but was the wrong player.
    - Getting desperate and trying to save the season when Ricky retired on us.

    Nick Saban:

    - He listened to doctors instead of his gut.
    - He was never able to make a final decision.
    - He was an *******.
    - He did not want to "rebuild", he wanted to win.

    Cam Cameron:

    - He was hired.

    The rest of the story has yet to be written.
     
  38. xphinfanx

    xphinfanx Stay strong my friends.

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    Cam Cameron might as well have just stepped in front of a buss following what Saben left.

    I'd wish that on no one.
     
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  39. RickyNeverInhaled

    RickyNeverInhaled Well-Known Member

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    wow. i didn't know that. i can't believe the man responsible for our best times is also responsible for what i consider the start of our downfall. i didn't know Shula "picked the groceries to". so that settles that. who was the next GM and how bad of a salary cap problem did they inherit with dwindling talent on the roster. was the next coach jimmy johnson or was there someone before him? i was a fan through all of this but i couldn't tell you who the coaches were till after jimmy johnson. and the only GMs i know were randy mueller and jeff ireland. i just didn't care to know all that info back then, i just watched all the games.
     
  40. RickyNeverInhaled

    RickyNeverInhaled Well-Known Member

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    All of that really hits the nail on the head. I totally agree. Now that this thread has got to the point to talk about Ireland, i would like to say something in his defense. Every thing thats occured from the begining of the end of Shula's reign til now has made it harder and harder to become a winning team again. The mess that Ireland inherited takes several years to fix. I would feel bad for him if we let him go after this year. Whether anyone hates him or not, i believe we will all look back at Ireland's reign and think he played a huge role in turning this franchise around. Of course that depends on whether or not Tannehill is our franchise QB. I think the last thing this team needs is a new set of "big wigs". We need to give someone plenty of time to fix this mess. If its not Ireland i sure hope its the next GM. I am so sick of rebuilding everytime we get a new GM and/or a new Coach.
     

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