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The Objective Case for Jeff Ireland

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Fineas, Sep 3, 2012.

  1. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    Rational people understand that Bill Parcells was in charge from 2008 through most of 2010, that "GM" was nothing more than a title initially used to get Ireland away from Dallas, that Ireland was being mentored during that time, that Parcells could step in whenever he wanted, that the initial staff of failed coaches were Parcells' hirings, that Ireland didn't assume the actual duties of GM until Parcells stepped down, and that his first year in charge was 2011. This has been explicitly explained to us by either the organization or people with direct knowledge of the organization; therefore, throwing out these facts are the dumbest thing I continue to read from certain Ireland haters.
     
  2. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Its not dumb if you paid attention to the argument. Its apparent you aren't willing to even pay attention. Its as if this forum is for you to scream, cry, rant.

    Ireland had to follow Parcells blueprint. Prove that wrong. Before you say it doesn't matter, understand the blueprint is flawed and out of date. The blueprint makes Henne one of the best QB draft prospects in recent times. You cannot argue this and sound like a rational person without an agenda.

    I'm not throwing out his first three years because I love guy or am ignorant. I throw it out because as a rational person I cannot say with certainty those moves would have happened without Parcells there. I have evidence. You have angry, angry tears.
     
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  3. Clipse

    Clipse mediocrity sucks

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    So Ireland was a puppet for Parcells? Good to know. Makes that decision to fire him even easier since being a puppet makes him even less qualified to be an NFL GM. Maybe we can get us a real GM next time and not a GM in name only who not surprisingly sucks at his job.
     
  4. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Puppet?

    I guess you're a puppet to your employer too, right?

    Please just leave. Ireland could cure cancer and you'd say, and what did he do about scabies?
     
    ToddPhin likes this.
  5. Desides

    Desides Well-Known Member

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    Not true. Ireland has had final say in his contract since 2008.
     
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  6. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    He did have final say....as long as he followed the blueprint.
     
  7. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

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    Yet we know for 100% sure he didn't have final say on the 2nd round pick for Pat White. Hmmmm
     
  8. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    But not in reality though. We know that he had to convince Parcells to "let" him trade for Marshall. We know Parcells took people off the board. We know that Parcells had "special projects" every year, guys that he wanted and selected in the draft. GMs with real total control don't have those kinds of restraints.
     
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  9. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    If Ireland was actually the one responsible for all our poor moves from 2008-2010, then he would've either been fired or never allowed to assume full control of the team. I can provide a paper bag if you like, seeing as that would be easier for you to talk your way of at the moment.
     
  10. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    Nice try. I see what you did there. :wink2:

    Quite lawyerly the way you conveniently dodged the facts by using the meaningless "in his contract" loophole for your argument. What was "in his contract" wasn't how things actually were. The entire football world knew he was hired to be Bill's protege and then eventually take over when Bill felt he was ready.
     
  11. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    .... and we also know that Parcells has stated he could step in any time he wanted. Everyone around the country, from the NY Times to local newspapers to AOL knew that Parcells was in charge and running the show. Even our own organization stated as such. Irrational people who hate Ireland are the only ones who stubbornly ignore it. 5 minutes worth of Googling is all it takes to see what Parcells' role was and how much influence he had, as well as how Ireland was his protege.
     
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  12. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    Arguing against this stuff is like trying to tell an astronomer that earth orbits the moon. It's just silly. I've heard valid arguments against Jeff Ireland as a GM, but pretending he was in charge and responsible for every poor decision when Parcells was here simply isn't one of them. :lol:
     
  13. Clipse

    Clipse mediocrity sucks

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    You said it, not me, that Ireland was a GM in name only while Parcells made all the decisions and Ireland basically did nothing. If this is true as you claim it is, it's an even bigger reason to fire him aside from him having no positive impact in the slightest bit on this team. I'll take an actual GM please, not a GM in name only that's proven incapable at his job.
     
  14. Clipse

    Clipse mediocrity sucks

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    If we didn't have an owner that makes an *** out of himself time and time again, and has no idea what he's doing when it comes to running a football team, he would've been fired by now.
     
  15. Clipse

    Clipse mediocrity sucks

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    Nobody's pretending he was in charge. All we have are the facts. The fact of the matter is, Jeff Ireland has been useless, whether as a GM or a "GM" is irrelevant. There's hundreds of options out there that at the least could "GM" his way to 3 straight losing seasons with the least talented roster going into yet another season sure to be a failure from a W/L standpoint.
     
  16. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    That is what you think he said?
     
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  17. mbmonk

    mbmonk I have no clue

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    i just wanted to give you a quick thank you for the reply and the link to your previous post. Awesome stuff as usual CK. Thanks.
     
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  18. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    Prove that right.
     
  19. Desides

    Desides Well-Known Member

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    "In his contract" is a fact. It is something that can be verified. That your view of the Dolphins doesn't incorporate this fact is your issue, not mine. Nor is it "lawyerly" to cite a relevant fact. Ireland had final say. This is the only way the NFL would allow his move from the Cowboys to the Dolphins. It's a real, tangible thing. Acknowledge it and make allowance for it; don't be smarmy about it.
     
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  20. MonstBlitz

    MonstBlitz Nobody's Fart Catcher

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    Didn't you pen a nice little thread where you credit Ireland for Dallas draft picks when he was only a scout? But now you're willing to absolve him of all blame when he was actually GM here? Yeah that makes sense...
     
  21. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Why do I bother?

    That's not what I said.

    Ireland had complete autonomy to find, sign, trade and draft any player....that fit Parcells blueprint. You and everyone else have not refuted that.

    In fact, all any of you have said is, the same extreme exaggeration like the bile I'm responding too.
     
  22. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Prove it a 100%? Can't. There's been plenty of evidence though. Zero evidence to say the opposite.

    - Parcells admitted he made the White pick.
    - Parcells said he wasn't coaching, but he was "going to buy the groceries".
    - Chad Henne fits Parcells QB Checklist 100%. No QB we've brought in since Parcells left has.
    - Ross retained Ireland. You'd think a self made billionaire with inside access would have a pretty could pulse on the situation.
    - When we picked Long, no one at the time thought anyone else was responsible for that pick then Parcells. its only now, that people forget what's what.
    - JT said it was Parcells that made him the infamous contract offer on a post-it note.

    Oh, then there's little this fact:
    - Ireland admits it.

    The counter has nothing other than a contract that says Ireland was the GM.

    Right or wrong, its enough evidence to at least call the data from the time tainted, if we are going to be rational.

    I mean seriously, let's think about this without emotion for a minute: Parcells was Irelands boss, why the hell wouldn't Ireland use Parcells infamous blueprint on players and why would Parcells not make him use it?

    Is that thought process really so crazy?
     
  23. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Is it me, or have you sort of changed your mind on Jeff Ireland? What was the straw that broke the camel's back, if you don't mind me asking?
     
  24. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    This is not factually correct and is a great example of how language can be manipulated and massaged to make a point where there is not one to be made. You say he "made" the pick. That word implies it was his authority, his decision, etc. He's told Armando Salguero in private conversations that he went along with the decision. He blames himself for doing that, because he's a grown up and he realizes that everyone has personal responsibility in those situations and you can't point fingers unless you had raised your own voice of dissent, which he did not. But you're interpreting his own assignment of self-blame as him making the pick in a vaccuum with full authority and his finger on the trigger. That's just not factually correct.
     
  25. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    I think you are delving too deep into the language actually. He accepted responsibility for White.

    I think it takes a lot of inferring on someone's part to read that and think he was convinced by others. He claims the mistake as his own then goes on to diffuse it with a handful of "we"s. Either way, I still say its enough to throw it out. Your take is interpretive. My take does have Parcells accepting responsibility.

    Also, if what you're saying is true, and that he went along with it, then that implies he could have vetoed it, which illustrates he did in fact have the power.
     
  26. Clipse

    Clipse mediocrity sucks

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    You're right. It was phinsational that said it. Point still remains.

    There's nothing to refute, since you can't prove that either. Anybody can throw **** at the wall and tell you to refute it. I believe it was Armando that said Ireland was in charge of the 2009 draft based on what Parcells told him. Refute it.

    It's also funny that our drafts the last 2 years certainly fit the same outdated blueprint of before. 1st round center. Slow RB in Daniel Thomas. 2nd round Tackle. Still ignoring WR. Still ignoring a true pass rusher. Still ignoring the safety position, particularly a playmaker at the position. Aside from maybe Lamar Miller who needs a lot of work, still ignoring playmakers on both side of the ball. About the only thing changed with this supposed blueprint is the drafting of a QB that wasn't senior with 3 years starting experience and 23 wins like Parcells likes them.

    But sure, let's keep this Parcells crony around hoping he'll be good someday when the odds are very bad instead of looking for a real GM.
     
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  27. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    I'm hardly throwing random **** against the wall. You're projecting.

    I have given evidence. You've given nothing but ranting.

    The last two drafts are far from the Parcells blueprint. I guess when you have no idea what you're talking about its easy to maintain your baseless anger.
     
  28. Clipse

    Clipse mediocrity sucks

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    I never said it was a Parcells blueprint. I said it was still an outdated blueprint. No receivers, no pass rushers, no playmakers. But hey, we got some more linemen! I'm sure that made Parcells quite proud though.
     
  29. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    QB, RBs, WRs, TEs are not playmakers now? Do you even pay attention to what you say?
     
  30. Clipse

    Clipse mediocrity sucks

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    Oh they're playmakers. Too bad they don't exist on this team. There's Reggie Bush, and then there's.... *crickets* Legadu Naanee is our starting WR. Great job Ireland. Hope you're our GM forever!
     
  31. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Your argument is all over the place.

    You make the claim that Ireland ignored playmaker positions in the the past two drafts. I point out that he didn't ignore that and you claim only Bush is worth anything even though we haven't played a single game yet. You make so precious little sense.
     
  32. Clipse

    Clipse mediocrity sucks

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    Bush is the only playmaker we have on offense. Can that change? Sure. But as of right now, Bush is the only playmaker we have until proven otherwise, and that's very, very unlikely to change this season. Egnew will barely see the field. And will likely bust like Coffman and Rucker before him, who were both better than Egnew was. But then again, Egnew was never really a playmaker to begin with. A lot of catches with little TD's and yards. Lamar Miller will barely see the field this year and Daniel Thomas will never be a playmaker. He's not that type of player, nor was he drafted to be. And he certainly sucked last year. Our WR's are hot garbage so we can already disregard them. Bess is a solid possession WR, but by no means the playmaker/chunk yardage guy we need. Legadu Naanee is our starter. I've never seen something so pathetic.

    And then there's the defense. Cam Wake is the only true pass rusher on the roster. Don't fool yourself, I've seen enough of Vernon to know he will never be that guy. Hell Wake's the only playmaker on the defense. Dansby was supposed to be one, but he's been nothing short of a disappointment in that department. Vontae Davis was the only guy who could get an INT, and he's gone. I do think Odrick becomes a playmaker for us. 4-3 DT is his best position imo. Sean Smith could be one if he ever learns to catch.

    So as of right now, we have 2 proven playmakers on the entire roster, with that likely not to change much this season. Good job Ireland. Keep it coming.
     
  33. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Yes, and so has Jeff Ireland. But you ignore that and try to say that Bill Parcells is the ONE responsible for White. Factually not true.
     
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  34. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    You ignored the rest of my post. If Parcells went along with the decision that means he had veto power, that means Ireland didn't have all the power.
     
  35. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    I honestly don't think you understand the language.

    Ireland, in the two years without Parcells has not ignored playmakers. That was your argument and it is wrong. Admit that before we continue.
     
  36. Vendigo

    Vendigo German Gigolo Club Member

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    But it doesn't mean he "made" the pick as you originally stipulated. There's a difference between going along with a decision and making it.
     
  37. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Not when you have all the power.

    Parcells admitted the mistake was his. Parcells was Ireland's boss. If Ireland had the power I'm being told he had, Parcells couldn't have went along with it or not.
     
  38. Clipse

    Clipse mediocrity sucks

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    We never "ignored" playmakers with Parcells then according to your language. Pat White was drafted to be a playmaker. We traded for Brandon Marshall. Cameron Wake was signed in FA to be a true pass rusher and playmaker. Under Ireland, we've had one serious attempt at finding a playmaker in Reggie Bush. One attempt at finding a playmaker is ignoring it as far as I'm concerned. And no, I don't consider 4th round draft picks as a serious attempt at finding a playmaker. If it works out, great, but trying to find game changers in the 4th round is a fast track to failure. When Ireland spends a 1st or 2nd round pick on an explosive WR, true pass rusher, ballhawk DB instead of yet another linemen, let me know. Then that's only half the battle. Because he's still getting fired unless someone starts actually making plays.
     
  39. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Pat White is an example of NOT ignoring playmakers, but Ryan Tannehill is? I don't even know how to speak the language on your planet.
     
  40. Clipse

    Clipse mediocrity sucks

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    You're the first person I've seen comparing QB's as a playmaker to the likes of WR's, Pass Rushers, and ballhawking defenders. QB's to me are completely different or else I would've included Chad Henne in this discussion. They're on a whole different level. They're far more important. They're the most important part of a football team. And I've applauded Ireland numerous times in the past for at least taking a chance on Tannehill, even though I've never liked him much as a prospect. You've never seen me complain about the direction of that pick, nor will you.
     

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