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Sherman says Tannehill 's tipped passes on him

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by jpep13, Sep 11, 2012.

  1. jsizzle

    jsizzle Banned

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    Me too! This new one is great! Much better than the bodybuilder!
     
  2. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I can stop you. I'm 35, 5'6" and 145 lbs. I'll just grab you by the waist and hold on for the ride (not that ride sickos!).

    It's 100% Tannehill. Could his olineman have helped? Sure. But it's still Tanehill. You know I blame Javorskie Lane for not coming over and timing his punch on the DLineman who jumped.

    The Lineman's job is to keep the defender away from Tannehill. The Lineman has no idea when Tanny is going to pass it, how is he going to stop the D from jumping? That's ridiculous and that's just scapegoating. The defender can fake left, right then jump. Pass batted down.

    How many were able to block Michael Jordan's jump shots. Fade aways? Not many. You can't. Because the person jumping knows when he's going to jump.
     
  3. jupiterfin

    jupiterfin Mild Irritant

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    I hope Tannehill corrects his problem with tipped passes, cause it's going to be a long year with everybody pontificating on release points, throwing lanes and blocking techniques designed to keep DL's hands down.
     
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  4. vizi0n

    vizi0n Boom.. Club Member

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    This is when Sherman needs to get him out of the pocket and let him use that athleticism for a few plays...
     
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  5. PSG

    PSG Clear Eyes. Full Hearts.

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    I said Tannehill wasn't very good. I meant in the game, not overall.

    The other was Alex44, who disagrees with my stance that the batted balls at the line of scrimmage are real problem. He is of the opinion that is a OL issue not a QB issue. I disagree. I have less of an issue with Alex as he has reached out via PM to (sort of) apologize.

    Mod Edit: Post edited. It was handled. Use the ignore feature.
     
  6. jsizzle

    jsizzle Banned

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    Then you need to clarify, there were a bunch of trolls in there that day, I thought you were one of them. I apologize if I went over the top.
     
  7. jw3102

    jw3102 season ticket holder

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    If that is the case. It is still something that Tannehill has to improve on. If the Texans figured out that all they had to do was raise their hands every time Tannehill took a three step drop. I am sure all the other DC's for the teams the Dolphins play the remainder are smart enough make sure their defensive lineman put up their hands, every time Tannehill takes a three step drop.

    The three step drop is integral to the WCO, so it is up to Tannehill to fix the problem.
     
  8. vitalize

    vitalize New Member

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    Wrong. the only reason i'm responding is not because of your ignorance but because of your smugness.

    for short, quick passes, offensive linemen do not recoil or step back. instead they fire off aggressively hitting the defender to the mid section. this "fence blocking technique" serves two purposes. first, it tends to keep the defender's hands down so as not to allow the defender to reach out and bat down or tip a passed ball. second, it keeps the offensive linemen from stepping back and getting in either the quarterback's way or the passing lane.

    at 6'4" and 220 you're rather skinny. i think those are Tanny's stats. Unless you're < 10% body fat and at 62 yrs old I doubt that. if I, at 6'1" 235lbs, were blocking you and you tried to jump i'd knock you flat on your ***. guaranteed.​
     
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  9. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    Hmmm, yeah ok, there were no 6'5 DL in the 1990s and you know more about playing OL than Keith Sims does. :lol:
     
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  10. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    And how did you type your post without banging on your keyboard?
     
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  11. vitalize

    vitalize New Member

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    More:

    the article is touching on p.manning's passes being blocked this preseason.

    From high school football on up to the NFL, offensive linemen are taught that if their assignment gets his hands up, they have to hammer him in the stomach or diaphragm, just below the pads, dropping his hands.
    The weapon of choice is the palm heel strike - called a ‘shotei’ in the Japanese fighting arts - and it’s identical to the technique used in football, including the NFL. I’m a smaller guy, and I used it to easily break four inches of pine at a time - the 300+ lb behemoths can do a lot of damage with it, very fast.
    The point is simple - the OL has to control the defenders on pass plays. If they let their assignment step away, they didn’t lock in to them on the first clash. There’s a need here for a higher level of aggression, making sure that the defender can’t step back by having the offensive lineman’s hands locked into the area just outside the numbers.
    If they control the defender without locking in (which is fine), they still need to be aware of the potential for a tipped pass and aggressively move to prevent it. You do that by getting close, keeping your hands on them and driving your palm heels through their midsection if/when you feel their arms starting to raise.

    http://www.itsalloverfatman.com/broncos/entry/a-second-helping-of-tipped-passes-in-the-no-huddle
     
  12. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    I think you need to include the play calls too. Sherman is calling a lot of short set quick passes, most I'd say designed to go 10 yds or less in the air and inside the hashes. DLinemen realize that, and are ready to jump when they see RT short set. They know the pass is coming out quickly.
     
  13. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    Philbin doesn't understand the nuances of OL play quite as well as mommabilly I guess. :shifty:
     
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  14. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    You're not Canadian?




















    :shifty:
     
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  15. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    I'd say the vast majority of tipped passes against any QB come on 3 step drops. Sherman calls an awfully high pct of those plays it seems to me.
     
  16. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    But only a bit. I want Tannehill to FACE his issue and work to improve it, not work around it for his whole career.
     
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  17. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    Chew on this one a little. It basically supports what some of us have been saying all along, including that silly old Keith Sims. How dare he think he knows a thing or two about playing OL. :lol:

    http://www.itsalloverfatman.com/broncos/entry/a-second-helping-of-tipped-passes-in-the-no-huddle
     
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  18. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    True. Offensive design is part of the issue.

    Sherman is doing even MORe short passing than normal, imo, because of Martin's crap play at RT and the poor protection. Short passes also mean easier reads for Tannehill, the rookie. Thing is, by protecting Tannehill with this offensive design, it created other issues.

    Also, Sherman could help by running plays to punish the DL for assuming a three step and throw cadence. A draw play, for instance... where it's three steps, a pump fake and a hand-off to Bush. Gotta think it's hard to run-defend when you are in the air.

    I'd also start to mix in the occasional three step drop-hitch-hitch step cadence with a deeper route and NOT just short throws. Three step drop to fool them, but hold the ball a bit and punish the LBs and CBs who squatted the short route. CK pointed out that double move routes like SLUGGOs would have been great in this regard.
     
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  19. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    And whoever was slandering Canadians is a racist. I cannot believe we have open racism in our midst.
     
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  20. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    Wrong. If it's a 3 stop drop, our Oline should know the ball's coming out quickly, and as such their internal clock should automatically know when the defender will be putting his hands up considering that's about all the dline can do to disrupt the pass [on short drops like that]. Plus, if you know the defender is in the habit of jumping and a good shot blocker, such as Watt, then simply either cut him down to give your QB a better passing lane or read the defender so that when he's cuing his jump you give him a shot to the stomach [or even the throat] to pull his arms down and hopefully make him hesitate to raise his arms in the future IMO.
     
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  21. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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  22. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    Sherman called an overabundance of the same sort of plays for Tanne at TAMU.
     
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  23. vitalize

    vitalize New Member

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    exactly. The oline needs to control the dline. that is their job. allowing your man to jump is not controlling him. can tanny do things that help out his oline? sure, just like some qb's hamper their line by scrambling needlessly, a qb can help them, but when all is said and done, the oline is 99% responsible for line play.
     
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  24. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    But not against the Texans. Wonder why.
     
  25. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    It's a good point that the OL has to expect a lineman known for jumping to tip balls to jump a lot.

    If the Texans had an advantage knowing we'd be throwing a lot of three step drops, which let them predict when to jump.. then you'd think us knowing their DLine was going to be jumping for all our three step drops would let us predit they would jump and take advantage of THAT too.

    Actually, did we adjust in the second half to combat their tactic? if so, what did we do differently? Did our OL do something different? dod Sherman call different plays, or move Tannehill to create lanes, or did Tannehill start looking awy from his intended target at the snap?
     
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  26. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    Sorry but this isn't basketball, and the dlinemen aren't Michael Jordan. They're 260-300+ pounders wearing a helmet and pads, are in a confined space, and have a guy directly in front of them. Not to mention basketball isn't a contact sport and you can't put your hands on Jordan as he's jumping to make a shot.

    And if you think a lineman doesn't cue when he's about to jump, you're wrong. A player of that size typically has to first load his arms, legs, or both in order to jump or bat a pass. That means the knees and/or arms will first drop slightly in order to provide enough momentum to explode upward, cuing the offensive lineman when to punch or cut him down.
     
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  27. vitalize

    vitalize New Member

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    read mr. clean's link. it addresses p. manning's problems with his quick passes being tipped this preseason and how his oline need to get better. i suspect that miami's oline is just not used to these types of plays, well, i'm actually sure of it because they are now in a wco when last season they were not. they'll get better and as i said before, tanny will do the little things to help them out too. his 1% if you will.
     
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  28. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    IDK. I haven't gone back to rewatch the game yet, but it's definitely something I'll pay attention to.
     
  29. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    That's possible considering we didn't employ 3 step drops last year IIRC. <someone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong though>
     
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  30. vitalize

    vitalize New Member

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    i think the oline engaged thier man faster and for longer. tanny may have done some small things differently to help out. i'd have to watch the game again to be certain.
     
  31. vitalize

    vitalize New Member

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    if we did i don't remember it being done often.

    and again, if p. manning was having problems early on now that denver is running more of a short, quick passes (that fit manning) then it has to be expected that the dolphins will have the same growing pains. unless people are ready to say that manning sucks or something.
     
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  32. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

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    Hmm well I don't think we disagree as much as originally thought. I do put two of the tips squarely on Ryan. Then I have two on the offensive line and one as just a great play by a blitzer. Those were the main ones I can remember.

    Oh well though whats done is done. Lets see if it happens again.
     
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  33. vitalize

    vitalize New Member

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    there are times when it is the qb's fault for passes being tipped. usually it's because of ball trajectory or something similar. tanny does not have this issue. you made some fine points in the post where you broke down your opinion on whose fault it was, but i have to disagree with you on most. the fact that watt is very good at what he does and part of the "blame" is just that he's good is a great point and i agree. however, imo, i didn't see tanny do anything wrong that led to tipped passes. his oline failed him and lost the battle.
     
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  34. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    The main point though is the OL know the play call. They know when it's a short set, that the pass is coming out quick. They know they need to keep engaged with the DL. If he stops and/or a takes a step back to jump, don't just stand there watching him, keep engaging him. I don't care what someone else here has tried to tell you. If you are in front of me with your arms in the air, and I strike you in the solar plexus area with the heel of my hand, your arms won't stay up. If you ain't raised your arms yet, and I strike you there, they ain't going up.
     
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  35. vitalize

    vitalize New Member

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    and if your feet leave the ground for only 1/2 second i'm knocking you flat on your ***.
     
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  36. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    Though all the tipped passes came on those types of plays, correct?
     
  37. Onehondo

    Onehondo Senior Member Club Member

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    Wouldn't it make sense to have the quarterback pump fake on a three step drop if the defensive line has a tendency to leave their feet to try and tip passes? Wouldn't this create problems for the defense covering draw plays, quick openers and QB option plays? I know if an Offensive lineman puts a solid hit on a defensive lineman who has left his feet should create openings and opportunities somewhere in that offense.
     
  38. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    Exactly. I think when the taller DL like Watt tip passes, they don't get far off the ground to do so, because their height and long arms are sufficient to do so already. Though when Cushing comes way off the ground to bat that pass up into the air, Incognito appeared to be the man across from him, and he never should have allowed that.
     
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  39. vitalize

    vitalize New Member

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    this would help. however, a pump fake throws off the timing on passes that quick and short. if you practice that way then it will work. it still would behoove the dolphin's oline to engage their man better, imo
     
  40. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    If the defensive lineman is not engaged launching at him, especially his knees would cause him to want to protect himself. My understanding is as long as he is not engaged that is legal.
     
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