What is your impression of Jeff Ireland as a GM ?

Would you rather have Luck, Fleener, TY Hilton and Dwayne Allen or Tannehill, Egnew, Matthews and Clay? Indy has infinitely more talent at the skill positions than the Dolphins, and it's young talent.

 

I am not a fan in the least.

I do not want him fired during the season but I personally would terminate him from the GM position after the current season. I would evaluate if I wanted to retain him in a capacity that entailed souting , scouting director , but not married to keeping him at all. IMO he is slow to react to movements for the game and we have little to show for numerous higher draft choices , and this pales in comparison to playoff teams.

Peter Principle poster boy , just because you are good or component in one or some areas , it doesn't mean you will be a success at a higher one.

Negatives:

Production from his team , the GM should be a bottom line position and wins/losses playoff appearances and playoff wins are to me , bottom bottom line. He does not pass that standard.

Drafting , as I mentioned and pointed out in the Peyton Manning thread , every team , GM has busts , it isn't correct imo to say a player such as Brian Hartline counts the same as say Antonio Brown or Mike Wallace. All are not busts but the value and difference they provide are not the same . TALENT does not equate talent , and in that thread I have listed off the top of my head at least 15 players drafted by playoff teams in the last couple of years that have SUBSTANTIALLY outperformed their draft slot. Miami has had none , and only Brian Hartline could remotely be considered as a player that has , but not nearly at the impact level of the mentioned players.

This is a fundamental flaw I believe Ireland supporters either ignore or don't feel matters , and it clearly does. It impacts wins, losses and how you have to use future assets. As mentioned by many , Ireland tends to be safe with high picks and for that we lose out on players like Earl Thomas or JPP and settle for less impactful players. This matters , it matters a lot imo.

I believe Ireland has ignored key positions such as S and WR , which in todays NFL have more value than average lineman. Slow to react to movement in the game and is a poster boy for the Peter Principle .Just because you do one thing well doesn't mean you will do well at the next level , or several levels up.

 

I'll tell you what I think of the guy in about a minute...

 

I don't agree with that. Brady played in a pro style offense at Michigan. Gabbert played in a much different offense at Missouri than he's played in at Jacksonville.

 

I am probably someone that people here would say normally defends Ireland. My point has never been that he is great or some kind of personnel genius, just that I think he has done an above average job and is nowhere near the moron that others claim him to be. He's done some good things and bad things. It's not hard to point them out, although we don't know how much he was personally responsible for each one, etc. In my view:

Good

1. Signing Cam Wake. Every team could have had him at a bargain price, but we got him at that price.
2. Jake Long. He's a great player. Whether it was the best of all possible choices is debatable, but no GM gets judged on that strict a standard.
3. Mike Pouncey. Very good player and looks much better than Ryan Mallett, the darlin' of this board.
4. Jared Odrick. Very good player and certainly better than Jerry Hughes, the fave of this board.
5. Davone Bess. Good football player and a nice find as a UDFA.
6. Tannehill. Cautiously optimistic here. I'd have preferred Russell Wilson in the 3rd, but . . .
7. Kendall Langford. Good player who gave 4 good years but wasn't worth to the Dolphins what he signed for in FA.
8. Getting 2nd and extra pick for Vontae. If he wasn't going to start and maybe not even nickel, that's a nice return on that trade.
9. Fasano/Ferguson trade.
10. Reggie Bush trade. Many here were very critical of it but Bush has been very good and well worth the value given up.
11. Re-signing Soliai.


Bad

1. Pat White
2. Patrick Turner
3. Gibril Wilson
4. John Jerry (verdict still out to some degree, but not looking good)
5. Phillip Merling
6. Shawn Murphy
7. Marc Colombo
8. Chad Henne

There are others that can probably be added to each category. Having looked at every other team's draft record since 2008, I can say that just about every GM has a "Bad" list that is substantively similar to Ireland's. I suppose one could add Brandon Marshall, Vontae Davis, Jake Grove and Justin Smiley in the sense that they did not work out long-term, but they were all good, productive players while here.

At the same time, the "Good" list doesn't reflect any real genius either. Long is a great player and a solid pick, but it was No. 1 overall. Pouncey and Odrick were safe but without crazy upside. Tennehill is a big unknown to a certain degree. Etc.

 

Well, now that I see you've conveniently defined recent history to not include Brady, Brees, Cassel, or Rodgers, then this is a topic of discussion that it not worth continuing.

 

It's only week 1, why's there no debate on that?. We lost some good players, we also lost some bad players who were liabilities. I think it all comes down to how well the QB plays and whether other guys continue to develop.

 

I'm not willing to pass judgement on players who have played one whole game. Awesome that you are though. Good luck with that.

 

i agree with this overall statement that we do have talent at some positions just not any "play makers". I wouldn't go so far as to say we have no play makers. what about Reggie? And we have some promising but unproven play makers. Like Javorski "get the **** out of my" Lane. I would also include Bess as a talented play maker which is undeniably one of the positives that we all would agree that Ireland is responsible for. We also have inconsistent play makers like Fasano. I would include Daniel Thomas as a play maker hope the concussion doesn't change that. I would say Hartline qualifies as an inconsistent play maker. I don't know if your idea of play makers only pertains to the offense, but Wake is a play maker. I would include Dansby and maybe Sean Smith as inconsistent play makers. i would include Thigpen as a special teams play maker.
Is there a need to say more?
I would welcome any upgraded play makers but would first want to swap out un-play makers and/or inconsistent play makers for play makers.

 

Right, but there is no more "pro-style" in the NFL. Most of these teams are using the spread concepts that most college teams are using. There is a hell of a lot more shotgun being used.

 

Huh?

Tannehill is more talented than MMoore.

The coaches clearly believe RMarshall is better than Vontae. Not sure I agree, but . . .

The coaches clearly believe that JLane is better at FB than Clay or Hilliard.

JMartin is a lot more talented than Colombo (although still learning and not a great player yet)

The coaches clearly believe that Clemons is more talented than YBell.

The only clear downgrade in talent was at 1 WR spot in trading Marshall (which Philbin & Co. directed).

 

I agree with alot of what you said buut by no means all of what you have said.
I would wager to guess that you hold Ireland responsible for more years than i do. am i right? I don't know, just guessing.
If i am right, humor me and act like Ireland is responsible for only 2010 after the draft, and everything from the off season of 2011 until now. Act like that is a fact, then list the positives and negatives if you don't mind. Just curious to see if anything changes since i consider you a rational person and are willing to play along with my belief of when i think Ireland is 100% responsible.

 

Thanks i pretty much agree on everything except I believe you have given Ireland credit he doesn't deserve as well as criticism that he doesn't deserve. Only because we have an obvious dissagreeance on what Ireland is responsible for and what Parcells is responsible for.
If I played along with your belief on that I would totally agree with your assessment. If you played along with my belief, what would change in your overall view on Ireland?
For instance there is facts and quotes from Parcells defending the Jake Long pick in which he states that If he had the chance to do it over again he would, even after knowing That Matt Ryan would turn out as he did he would have still picked Long. That is a paraphrased qoute from Parcells that is posted in the rant forum in an Ireland thread.
And yet people that have never read that or choose not to believe a Parcells qoute, still fault Ireland for not picking Matt Ryan.

 

Drafting a corner in the first round in 2009, then trading him away 3 years later, is not a good example of a positive IMO. Saying he'd maybe not even been the nickel sounds like something just to support a weak argument. Davis was the best corner we had over the past 3 seasons. It's a safe bet he'd have not been behind Carroll on the corner depth chart. Now we have worse depth at a critical position. He wasn't whom I'd have drafted in 2009, but once we did, it is a negative to get rid of him so soon. IMO, trading 1st round draft picks 3 years later for 2nd rounders or lower is not the modus operandi of a top quality GM. The timing of the trade, a couple of weeks before the regular season makes this trade all the worse IMO. Oh yeah, we got a higher pick for next year, but we got a season to play now, and our roster is weaker without Davis no matter how the apologists for Ireland wish to spin it.

 

Let's not forget we were playing a team w/ a damn good offense. I don't think the Rams, Jags, Colts, Bills, Jets, etc. will pose the same issues that Houston did. Namely they can run the ball well enough to induce safety help and create single high looks for their elite WR and solid pass catching TE. What I was really impressed of was how we were able to contain the run without relying on safety help. Coyle was able to pick his spots in terms of putting Jones/Clemons into the box, denying Kubiak the chance to use play action and attack down the field. Outside of San Fran, we're not going to face another run game like that and outside of NE we wont face another passing game that potent.

Sean Smith played well IMO, I'd like to see him more stingy in terms of allowing guys inside leverage but that could easily be a play call/technique issue being given to him from the staff. Marshall looked good, solid in run support, decent in coverage, he had a tremendous play vs Johnson on the deep comeback (remember that one), gave up a few catches but he didn't allow any big plays or significant YAC. Jones and Clemons were solid in run support, cleaning up any leaks in the front 7 and making a few plays near or behind the LOS. Jones' TFL vs Foster on the 3rd and 2 play (remember that one?) was especially impressive. I'd like to see more from them in pass coverage, but considering the competition I'll take it. What I am worried about is nickel CB, Jimmy Wilson was left on AJ for one play and it was a disaster. Gotta get that cleaned up.

In addition to Wake, who was doubled for most of the game, Starks did a tremendous job rushing the passer with 2 sacks and a handful of pressures. Odrick and Soliai weren't around the QB much from what I saw but they did condense the pocket and deny Schaub the ability to escape while also playing stout run D all game long. Randall and Vernon got plenty of snaps and they were not liabilities, we should be able to rest our DL without fear that we're going to get gashed.

The LBs were damn good vs the run, though Misi and Burnett were both caught slipping in man coverage vs Casey and Daniels, respectively. Dansby was caught out of position in zone on the first drive and Daniels had a big play down the seam. Daniels had another big gain on a play where Vernon was supposed to cover him but didn't get enough depth.

Whatever though. Overall the D played a damned good game and barring injury we'll only see 2 other offenses that even comes close to presenting the number of problems Houston did. If we can just get the offense to give us something, or at least not throw the game away like they did on Sunday.

 

Then why do QBs such as Gabbert and Weeden need to learn to work from under center if NFL offenses are all so much like college now?

 

That is a negative about Ireland that i totally agree with and would never defend. I would also add the Brandon Marshall trade and how Ireland has not even seriously tried to replace the talent of BM or VD. Even if the picks that were aquired for these trades become the best players we have ever had, I will never defend a GM move that makes us less talented now with the hope of getting better in the future!

 

I really have no idea who is right about what was Ireland and what was Parcells. It seems like an issue that Ireland haters and supporters alike simply use to justify their preconceived ideas. I'm not directing that at you personally, just saying that is often what it seems to be. So I just prefer to hold him accountable for everything since 2008. Obviously, if he had no real role in the Long pick than that comes off (for me it comes off the "good" list but for others it would come off the "bad"). Similarly, if he had nothing to do with the Pat White pick, then that would come off the "bad" list.

 

How so? How much spread offense was the NFL using when Brady or Brees were rookies?

 

They need to learn because it is still part of the game. But it is a lot smaller part of the game than it was 3-4 years ago. The % of plays run out of shotgun has skyrocketed the past few years.

ETA: in 2000, only 20% of plays were out of shotgun. In 2011, it was something around 60%.

 

I hated the trade at first but the guy was clearly being a douche. Aside from being inconsistent on the field, he showed up for camp out of shape two years in a row, was suspended for showing up late & hungover and who knows what else. IMO if the coaches didn't want to start him and Ireland decided he wasn't going to re-sign him long term then getting a 2nd rounder for him wasn't half bad.

 

Just do me a favor. not just you, but anyone reading this post.
Go to the soap box/rants forum and read the thread titled "jeff ireland related news, articles and factual stuff". Read that and let me know if your opinion changes at all, or if you or anyone could discredit anything in that thread. Its only 3 pages and I think only the first 2 have credible info, specially the first page.

 

There are two different things with Vontae. Drafting him in 2009 and then trading him in 2012. The trading part has two components too -- the decision to trade him and the compensation received. Those are obviously related but not entirely. The only thing I was putting in the good list was the compensation received. In light of Vontae's issues as shown on national TV and the fact that he had been demoted and did not have the confidence of the coaches, getting the 2nd rounder and the other pick was pretty good. It obviously took some doing to get Indy up to that level of compensation.

I agree that Vontae is a talented player and played pretty well for us overall. But if the coaches won't play him, he does no good on your bench. You won't get a 2nd for him again after he has been a backup for a season. The GM serves at the pleasure of the head coach in the sense that he is buying the groceries based on the chef's specifications. If the chef says "this piece of red snapper smells like rotten pu$$y" and I won't use it, the grocery buyer should get rid of it. If he can find someone willing to pay good money for it that the chef would rather spend on a different ingredient, he should.

Yeah, in isolation getting a 2nd 3 years after taking a guy in the first doesn't look great. But the truth is that Vontae was a late 1st and Indy's second could very well be an very early 2nd. And how many first round picks get cut, waived or traded for much less within a 3 year span? A lot. Even ones picked by the reputed top GMs.

 

I also felt very similar to what you are saying when that went down, I agree that there were reasons to get rid of him and am somewhat happy about the picks. But I can't see how anyone would deny VD's talent even if it was inconsistent talent. And I don't understand how anyone would be happy about getting rid of talent and not having an immediate good plan to replace that talent. I feel the exact same way about BM. I am not saying you are defending any of that, but I don't understand how anyone can view the VD or BM trade as a positive for Ireland.

 

Just to expand on this point:

 

Since you did not want to read the thread mentioned here is the pertinent posts, apoloigies it is longish and not clear as I can't multi quote.


With respect , it was never "no talent" and talent is not of equal value is it? I did ask where our drafted talent produced at a substantially higher value than where it was selected , you don't seem to think that is valid for some reason. Brian Hartline has talent , is it equal to Mike Wallace or Antonio Brown? Does their respective talents influence wins and losses to the same degrees?

Enough talent to win multiple playoff games. I see a disparity and you don't , there is talent to be sure , but I don't see the level of talent as being sufficient to count on a Super Bowl run , and from Ireland's track record I don't see he will draft as Indianapolis did in the previous post to get bonafide playmakers. Maybe he will , really maybe he will , he hasn't as of yet. That is why I have said AFTER this season if his players have not produced well enough I would not entrust him moving forward with the picks we have and the cap room. You would , fair enough , at some point for me if the production isn't there and you don't realistically envision it to change , then you make a change.

His players have 15 more games to show everyone , me included that he has made the correct draft selections.

Originally Posted by shouright
I keep hearing these things, over and over and over, and nobody ever supports it with anything objective.
You actually do but chose to dismiss them , I asked you to name drafted players that have produced at a notably higher level than their draft position. Ok , I guess you wanted me to do that instead of asking you a question that had MAYBE one answer , Brian Hartline. Other teams , teams that win more than they lose , playoff teams draft players that out perform their draft slot.

That off sets busts or players that don't live up to their draft position. Talent is not equal to TALENT . A starting wr isn't equal to any/all starting wr's , thus Brian Hartline dos not counter Mike Wallace or Antonio Brown. Nolan Carroll doesn't equal Ladarius Webb , Charles Clay and Michael Egnew don't outweigh Jimmy Graham or Aaron Hernadez , Jared Odrick doesn't match Justin Tuck , or JPP .Navorro Bowman trumpets Koa Misi ,Chris Culliver produces better than his draft slot. Jermichael Finley , Clay Matthews , Jordy Nelson ....Gino Atkins , Andy Dalton ....Brian Cushing , Connor Barwin ....

Off the top off my head , but of course facts and actual instances aren't objective for some but when asked to show where the draft nuggets are that this current GM has delivered are , the silence is telling , at least to me. Keep telling yourself and all of us he has produced like top drafting teams , and then tell us the record he has is not really what it is.

Once again, he has this year to have HIS players produce to show he is a success at what he does. You of course don't need to see that as you are happy that he has accomplished what he has and shouldn't be compared to winning teams . You must also disagree with Coach Philbin as he is fond of saying it is an eyeball thing , a gut feeling , trust in what you see. A lot of us trust in what we have seen , luckily for some Ireland has 15 more games to solidify his winning record.

Originally Posted by shouright
Your contention is that the team is short on talent.

Therefore you should provide objective evidence that other teams do a significantly better job of drafting players who produce at levels higher than their draft position, if that's the criterion you're using to establish your belief, and you'd like for it to have any credibility.

Now, I suspect if you really delved into the issue, you'd find that Jeff Ireland has done no worse than the average team in that regard.
That was off the top of my head , the players I listed ,to you , then don't have superior talent? Not sure honestly if you feel that.

My point is you can't equate a John Jerry with a Jimmy Graham , or a Brian Hartline with a Mike Wallace , they all play , they all have made squads , to degrees they have been starters , their values aren't equal , imo and I would suggest the vast majority of football executives would concur.

Ireland has not put players on this team that have substantially out performed where they were drafted . That is a huge aspect imo of how well or not well a GM does his job. It is fair on your part , and others to say lots of other teams could have drafted Jimmy Graham , but when you look at the overall selections and see this is consistent for Miami ,and other teams ( as listed ) hit on playmakers , impact players , pro bowlers it matters. It is not an isolated instance as shown. You can review if you wish and then objectively show those who question Ireland's track record where he has produced like the playoff teams . It also is not just the playoff teams , but to me that is where the focus is , I don't care if we are better than Cleveland or St. Louis over the last half dozen years. The goal is to be a top 8 team that wins deep into the playoffs and has a chance to win a Super Bowl. You do that in large part by drafting players I have shown you.

Again , I have said Ireland gets this year to have HIS players show he can draft and build a winner, if at the end of this year that isn't clear then , I for one , make the change. That to me is more than a fair shot to prove himself. I hope he does , I want to win .

Originally Posted by shouright
But what if those players represent very rare exceptions to the rule, and players like John Jerry and Brian Hartline are the vastly more frequent norm? What if players like Graham and Wallace are so few and far between that when you compare overall rosters across many teams, you find that Ireland hasn't done any poorer job than the average GM? Or what if you find he's done even better?

You can't just cherry-pick a player here and a player there and reach a conclusion based on it. You have to do something far more systematic and thorough than that to be convincing -- to me at least.

Now if you don't want to convince me, that's fine as well. We can just forget the whole thing.
The thing is , it isn't rare , as all the examples show , and again that was off the top of my head. Rare would be only a Jimmy Graham or only a Justin Tuck , it isn't only and the rare aspect applies to Ireland and finding those level of players. Actually it isn't rare because he hasn't found any here , at all.

So you don't feel that measure is warranted and don't feel won loss record is indicative , you have blind faith . Let's hope you are right and Ireland delives us to the playoffs this year , and to a super Bowl in the next three years.


Originally Posted by shouright
The fact that you can pull those examples off the top of your head doesn't mean they represent something that happens frequently. I can think of the last few plane crashes that I saw covered on the news, and that would seem to make them appear frequent when in reality they're extremely rare.

You're misstating my position there.
How many players did I list? Above what number does rare become regular? If virtually all playoff teams show this over the time Ireland has been with Miami , is that still then rare? Or a pattern? I see a pattern , playoff teams ( and others ) find and acquire these types of players , as I have shown.

Originally Posted by shouright
But only one side is actually contending something (i.e., the team is devoid of talent, and Jeff Ireland is therefore a bad GM).

The other side (my version of it at least) is simply saying we don't know whether that contention is valid without any supporting facts.
When I point out what you request you tend to change direction. I for one have never said the team is devoid of talent , I have said we lack talent ,playmakers , difference makers, that isn't the same. Specifically I have said Ireland has not drafted players that have substantially out performed their draft slot. You said he is in the same range for this as other GM's , many players/teams were then illustrated to refute that. My criticism here is that Ireland has not drafted players that have substantially played better than for where they were drafted . GM's that have and do, do this build stronger talent bases for their teams , which tend to produce more wins , less losses and contribute to being in and winning playoff games.

I believe this aspect to be a key component for a GM and one that Ireland has not , at all done well with. One where GM's for playoff teams on the other hand have , and thus a significant reason if at the end of this year we don't see this changed from the players he has drafted I would make the change at the GM level.

You have been shown multiple examples both for players and for teams , you may want to retain Ireland but saying you haven't been given supporting facts is inaccurate.

Originally Posted by dolfan22
My criticism here is that Ireland has not drafted players that have substantially played better than for where they were drafted . GM's that have and do, do this build stronger talent bases for their teams , which tend to produce more wins , less losses and contribute to being in and winning playoff games.

I believe this aspect to be a key component for a GM and one that Ireland has not , at all done well with.
And it's totally fine if you believe that as a philosophical position. But if you want to establish it as a fact, you have to do far more systematic research of this than you've done. You need to 1) show that there is a significant correlation between winning and drafting players who play better than where they were drafted (it's entirely possible those variables aren't significantly correlated, probably because drafting players who play better than where they were drafted is rare and is more than negated by drafting players who bust), and 2) that Ireland has done this significantly less frequently than the average GM and/or the most successful GMs in the league.

Point 2. Name me ONE player he has drafted that fits this criteria , and btw Hartline isn't the one , no disrespect to Hartline.

My point is more than valid and I named numerous difference makers from most of the teams that made the playoffs , so that again validates your point number 2 unless you think making the playoffs is not successful.

Point 1 , it isn't rare when you can drop 15 players who did just that from memory , just like you can't name 1 that Ireland has drafted. This is from RECENT drafts btw , so you are choosing not to acknowledge there is a legitimate point and that Ireland indeed has a shortcoming regarding this. I can and do admit that Ireland has drafted some solid players , that we are not "devoid" of talent and that I don't hate him as some do , that you won't admit there is a real tangible point on this matter is up to you . There is and it makes a difference on the field but you actually do know that .

I am not going to do some detailed metric or methodology when it is not needed , you can continue to be an ostrich on this matter , it doesn't change that I am correct.

 

It doesn't really change anything for me. Nothing there I hadn't already heard. But I don't believe everything I read in the newspaper and some of the quotes are more than a little ambiguous. My personal experience with reporters is that they misquote more often than they accurately quote. (Again, just my experience).

OK, so let's assume Parcells made the final call on the Long pick. Did Ireland disagree? Did he voice his disagreement? Who would he have picked instead? Etc. Same for Pat White. etc.

 

As far as i know Ireland hasn't voiced his opinion on the matter but I would like to believe that since Ireland picked Tannehill in the year that He had full undeniable GM power to do so, I would like to think that he would have picked Matt Ryan. Of course that is pure speculation but I think its a good eduacated guess.
I think its interested that you find no credit in those articles that you read but I respect your opinion and if you throw that out the window I believe you are rational on your stance if none of those articles are true.

 

b[/QUOTE]
did u intend to reply to my post? i don't see why u did with this rsponse and therfore i find it hard to follow! lol. i had to delete some of it to have room to reply. lmao
4

 

did u intend to reply to my post? i don't see why u did with this rsponse and therfore i find it hard to follow! lol. i had to delete some of it to have room to reply. lmao
4[/QUOTE]

this was a reply to dolfan22's last reply to me.

 

did u intend to reply to my post? i don't see why u did with this rsponse and therfore i find it hard to follow! lol. i had to delete some of it to have room to reply. lmao
4[/QUOTE]

Yes I replied , I feel no need to do your work on the matter , this reflects why I feel Ireland has not performed well enough to be retained after this season IF his players don't substantially improve their performance on the field and by the won loss record.

Not looking to change your mind if it is made up , the posts outline why Ireland has to be held accountable for his draft record and won loss record.

 

now i see what you were responding to. I just think you are bringing up drafts that I don't hold Ireland responsible for. The drafts I hold him responsible for, the jury is still out on because drafts need more than 1 or 2 years to addequitely judge. And I believe the opposite of your last sentence is just as true as your last sentence.
I totally agree that Ireland has ignored WR and S, but given what he inherited and the drafts I hold him responsible for, I don't think all of our needs could have been met in the drafts I hold Ireland completely responsible for. But that is no excuse for Ireland failing to try to meet the needs in FA that he didn't attempt to meet in the drafts I hold him responsible for. And for the record I believe he has some, not all responsibility for the 2010 draft and all responsibility for the 2011 draft.

 

Yes I replied , I feel no need to do your work on the matter , this reflects why I feel Ireland has not performed well enough to be retained after this season IF his players don't substantially improve their performance on the field and by the won loss record.

Not looking to change your mind if it is made up , the posts outline why Ireland has to be held accountable for his draft record and won loss record.[/QUOTE]

I think if we were on the same page as to the drafts Ireland is responsible for, we would not be arguing one way or the other. since we are not on the same page on that matter, that's why we disagree.

 

It's not that I put no credit in it. I don't see anyone saying Ireland was not on board with any of the supposed "Parcells picks" nor do I see anyone saying he was. I just don't know. I wouldn't assume that just because he took Tannehill he would have taken Ryan. Different players. Different picks. Teams in different situations. Different head coaches. No matter how much Ireland may have iked Tannehill, I find it hard to believe that Philbin and sherman did not have a huge amount of input into that pick. Similarly, with Sparano a former OL coach with the first overall pick, I'd be pretty surprised if he wasn't strongly in favor or taking Jake Long. Again, the GM buys the groceries, but they have to be ingredients that the head coach wants. It doesn't do any good to buy Japanese Grade 5 Kobe beef if the chef doesn't want to cook it.

 

What they're informed BY is what matters.

The most convincing information is that which compares Ireland to his peers using an objective and valid measure of the work he and they have done.

That beats the hell out of a picture of Legedu Naanee, for example.

 

The Naanee pic just sums things up so nicely tho

 

Sure, it sums up the perspective of one of the sides in this argument, and it does so with one miniscule piece of data that's no different from the data you could gather regarding the work of every other GM in the league.

In other words, in terms of systematically comparing Ireland to his peers, it's meaningless.

 

What is the source of your graphs?

 

It seems pretty clear that the BM and VD trades were really driven by Philbin. Neither guy was his kind of guy and he felt they were distractions that didn't fit in with Philbin's system. Not sure who you expected to get for VD at that point in training camp. And this is just speculation, but I would be shocked if there was any WR out there that Philbin wanted but Ireland just refused to pick or get. I'm pretty sure that if our new HC who made his rep as a passing game coordinator wanted a shiny new pass catching toy, he would have gotten it. Philbin made it clear that he doesn't feel there is a need for the proverbial No. 1 receiver. He had huge success in GB with guys who have talent but aren't Megatrons or Andre Johnson. They weren't first round picks. They don't have elite speed or elite size. A year ago, Jordy Nelson was a bulkier but less productive Brian Hartline. I think Philbin felt he could get similar results out of Hartline. Despite all the criticism here of Naanee, Philbin and Sherman obviously like him. He's been a starter since the beginning of camp. I think Philbin thinks he can get the job done.

 

I think if we were on the same page as to the drafts Ireland is responsible for, we would not be arguing one way or the other. since we are not on the same page on that matter, that's why we disagree.[/QUOTE]

Well the teflon thing is pretty convenient , take credit or deny responsibility , disregarding that , tell me one player you feel he is responsible for that has substantially out performed his draft slot.

Disagreeing with the Peter Principle is acceptable , people do often rise to the top and perform well or even great , however to date Ireland has not , you can not state this and expect that to be believed can you? You may think he will perform exceedingly well , but he has not to date. Blind Faith , I need something to base it on and he hasn't shown me that. As I said he has the rest of this year to have HIS players prove he is the right person for the job , if at the end of this year we have as many question marks as we currently do he needs to be replaced imo. He has gotten more than a fair shot at this , to date he has not delivered.