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Hyde article..Miami's' an underdog at home, expects 20,000 empties.

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by djphinfan, Sep 14, 2012.

  1. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/...miami-dolphins-0914-20120913,0,4596532.column


    " But there's no questioning Philbin for having the right to assemble his own team in his first months on the job. And yet he's being judged before he can put together the team he wants.

    It's worse for quarterback Ryan Tannehill. When you start a rookie quarterback, you have to accept a learning curve. Few rookies come out of the tunnel as heroes like Robert Griffin III. No. 1 pick Andrew Luck threw three interceptions last Sunday, just like Tannehill.

    Patience is a hard thing for a Dolphins fan anymore. It's harder still when the very people who should be preaching it are talking about making the playoffs.

    Fans aren't dumb. They can see the obvious. And the obvious two truths of this season need to be said to give the new coach and the new quarterback some time to get their feet under them."

    Does Hyde know Philbin probably initiated the trades for Davis, Johnson, and Marshall??
     
    dolfan7171 and DOLPHAN1 like this.
  2. CrunchTime

    CrunchTime Administrator Retired Administrator

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    I disagree with the article.Very few are judging Philbin or Tanny.The only one who is being judged is Jeff Ireland....a leftover from the previous losing regime.

    If you want to blame someone for the empty seats its the previous regimes .
     
    Dtronic, Marco, dolfan7171 and 9 others like this.
  3. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

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    To be fair the fans that are die hard enough to join a message board and post their opinions aren't the same type of fans to do what the article states. So just because we don't see it much on here doesn't mean there isnt a big faction of the fan base doing it.
     
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  4. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    the point IMO is that the coach and qb are not getting a fair deal in terms of expectations, and are getting too much pressure, an uneven platform to start your careers lets say??

    Owner finds himself in a sticky situation, we can only speculate how much power Philbin will have in the Ireland decision, I would say pretty high no?
     
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  5. smahtaz

    smahtaz Pimpin Ain't Easy

    Stephen Ross' 1st football hire was a very well respected coach and a winner at all levels during his career. We're being led to believe Philbin just happened to select Sherman as his OC and Ireland just happened to love Tannehill. Connect your own dots.
     
  6. the 23rd

    the 23rd a.k.a. Rio

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    Miami by 3 & one step closer to refining the process :yes: of rebuilding the team
     
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  7. Onehondo

    Onehondo Senior Member Club Member

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    I don't know, I keep having questions about Miami's loss and gains. They drafted Vontae Davis for a 1st round pick and trade him for a second round draft pick and a conditional pick. they trade for Brandon Marshall for two second round draft picks and get two third round picks in return. I know both of these players have or had question marks concerning their abilities or character but a team can never rise out of the 2nd tier with that kind of logic or reasoning. I am not going to prejudge Philbin or Tannehill or question their future value to the Dolphins but I have to question if this team is really headed in the right direction under the current front office. If you weigh the net gains with the net losses the numbers just don't add up. Its not fair to Philbin or Tannehill to not be more optimistic or supportive but the hopelessness and frustration in Miami has been building for a long. long time.
     
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  8. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Maybe because its late, but I don't understand what you're trying to get at.
     
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  9. slickj101

    slickj101 Is Water

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    Well we do have to compete with bath salts.
     
  10. PSG

    PSG Clear Eyes. Full Hearts.

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    Maybe I'm wrong.
    But I read it to mean the decision to draft Tannehill was made more by Philbin and not Ireland.
     
    Fin D likes this.
  11. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

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    I won't lie I didn't really understand what was meant so I didn't reply. If what you say is what he meant I'm still unsure what it had to do with I said....which is weird because I usually understand what he's saying.

    Your interpretation of what he seems logical though. If Tannehill ends up being a bust I'd like to see how many would stick by that logic though....we know 100% of the blame would go to Ireland.
     
  12. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    With the combination of Philbin/Sherman/Tannehill I'm sure it was talked about early in the process, maybe really early as in when Philbin knew he wanted Sherman..I'm sure the qb was talked about, and agreed upon.?.pretty cool if they pulled something like that off.
     
  13. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    Sure they do add up IMO. Do you not factor in the player's use?
    We gave up 2 2nds to have Marshall for 5 years. Chicago now gets him for only 3 years, hence it's only fair for the 2 2nds we paid for him to depreciate in value, especially at his high cost. Same goes for Vontae whom the Colts get the services of for only 2 of his original 5 years.

    Side note for comparison: It should say something when no one forked up a 1st for Mike Wallace.
     
  14. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

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    Not to mention we were done with BM regardless. Ireland has said the organization was actually going to CUT BM even if a trade wasn't worked out. Now people here may not agree with that decision but it's a fact. We got two thirds for a player we were going to CUT.
     
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  15. jinx

    jinx Well-Known Member

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    It was Ross that said Marshall was going to be cut not Ireland.
     
    Alex44 likes this.
  16. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    Which is why it's a crappy owner who says this team is a Super Bowl team, or playoff or whatever.
     
  17. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

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    Regardless of who said it the point stays the same. In fact it's even more powerful coming from higher up than the GM. Thanks for the slight correction though, I'm all about accuracy.
     
  18. Alex13

    Alex13 Tua Time !!! Club Member

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    dave hyde is a tool, he was so often wrong about this team...i didnt even finished this article
     
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  19. Pandarilla

    Pandarilla Purist Emeritus

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    House of lies(pffft!)...2 and a half point dogs at home, 1 PM start time against the Ray-duz (double pffft!)

    I must be delusional to think that we should win this game. That line has to move by Sunday...
     
  20. gafinfan

    gafinfan gunner Club Member

    I second that ... House of lies .... Please!

    Another pity party article giving those few fair weather fans more ammo to complain. If RT throws 3 TD's this game will he then be given sainthood by the same press who now call for blood in the streets?

    Lets just enjoy the games ... shall we.?
     
    Marco and toto like this.
  21. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    We gave up two 2s to have Marshall for only 2 seasons. As for Davis, to draft a guy in the 1st and after 3 seasons under his belt, trade him for a 2nd and a 6 is not the way to build a strong nucleus. Sure one can say, we used a low 1st, and will probably get a high 2nd, but still it brings into question the evaluation capabilities of the person who felt he was the BPA at #25 in the first place. Ideally, one would like their 1st rounders to at the very least remain on the team for the length of their initial contract. At the very least. Sure we can say, that pick came on Parcells' watch, but they admit they agreed on all personnel moves during their 3 years working together in Miami, except 1 or 2. An Ireland apologist, whomever they are, may say Davis was Bill's choice and not Ireland's. For myself, that's a tough nut to swallow, considering Clay Matthews was available and he would appear to be the consummate Parcells type of pick.
     
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  22. Pandarilla

    Pandarilla Purist Emeritus

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    Well, it looks to be all pass rushers and playmakers in future drafts. I wouldn't care if they only drafted pass rushers and WR's...What the hell is John Nalbone doing right now!?!
     
  23. jw3102

    jw3102 season ticket holder

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    I think both Philbin and Tannehill both need time to show if they have what it takes to effective in their present jobs in the NFL. Philbin, unfortunately inherited one of the least talented rosters in the NFL. Tannehill is surrounded by offensive personnel which certainly rate near the bottom in the NFL.

    I think most Dolphin fans understand that Philbin and Tannehill aren't responsible for the dearth of talent on the roster and these fans will certainly give Philbin and Tannehill the benefit of the doubt for the time being. Most fans see this lack of talent on the team as being the fault of the GM and, that is the person being held responsible for the negative attitude toward the Dolphins at this time.
     
  24. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    Just to interfere with your "religion" on that for a second, I encourage you to remember that this roster went 6-3 last year when it had good quarterback play.

    Now, of course you're going to say that we beat no good teams, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera, but remember that six teams LOST to us during that time, which suggests that there were at least six teams with POORER talent.
     
  25. jw3102

    jw3102 season ticket holder

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    The Dolphins had the eight pick in the draft this year, therefore there were obviously seven teams which played worse than the Dolphins last season. Whether you like it or not, the fact is that the Dolphins did NOT beat a team last year which ended the season with a winning record. You can ignore this if you want, but the reality is that this is a FACT.

    The next two weeks will show the direction this team is headed. The Dolphins easily defeated the Raiders last year and they beat the Jets in the last game they played against them. If the Dolphins win these next two games, I will certainly be willing to admit that they have more talent on the roster than I give them credit for at this time. If they should lose either of these games, it would certainly show that they are headed in the wrong direction.

    You can believe the Dolphins have a talented roster all you want. The fact that they have been 20-29 records over the past three seasons plus one game this season, does not back you up. Of course your, "religion", is to put all the blame on Sparano and continue to praise Ireland. We shall see over the next few weeks if you are right or not.
     
  26. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    No, my "religion" isn't religion at all. It's the belief that good quarterback play wins games, which is proven.
     
  27. jw3102

    jw3102 season ticket holder

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    No one debates that. Moore was a decent QB against other mediocre teams, but he was not a good QB against the better teams on the Dolphins schedule. Hopefully Tannehill will prove to be a good QB against all the teams in the NFL. Moore on the other hand will be the back up QB on another NFL after this season. The fact that he couldn't beat out a rookie QB for the starting job, clearly shows that Philbin and the rest of the offensive coaches don't think he is a good starting QB in the NFL.
     
  28. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    But what they debate is that Ireland is responsible for the team's overall play, citing poor roster talent across the board, despite the fact that one of the strongest predictors of winning -- quarterback play -- has determined in itself this team's performance, good and bad, in recent history.

    When the team had inadequate quarterback play, it lost. When it had good quarterback play, it won.

    That suggests the overall talent on the roster is not significantly different from that on other teams. If the team had gotten good quarterback play and done very poorly despite that, there might be a valid argument about how the rest of the roster is so bad. But that hasn't happened.

    Consequently, the "Ireland has compiled an untalented roster" explanation just doesn't hold up.
     
  29. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    He's saying the original idea was to keep Marshall for at least 5 years. That idea obviously changed.

    As for Vontae. I seriously do not understand the gnashing of teeth over this when its about value. (If its about leaving us thin this year, I get it, but I don't think its that big of a deal.)

    If he didn't turn out that great then it was a miss. Every team misses in the first round. Every team. How often do teams turn that miss into a 2nd rd pick?
     
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  30. gandalfin

    gandalfin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I agree with a lot of what you're saying. However, I believe Ireland has left us with poor talent at some key positions, particularly at receiver, but also pass rush and pass defense. If we had at least okay talent at WR instead of what we have, I think we could manage to beat a lot of teams with good QB play. I just don't think we have enough help for Tannehill there to allow him to be that good. i really hope some players develop and prove me wrong.
     
  31. jw3102

    jw3102 season ticket holder

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    When they had good QB play, they won games against the other bad teams in the NFL last year. Good QB's don't only play good against weak competition. They play good against all levels of competition.

    Ireland was the GM of the team when the decision was made to take Jake Long, instead of Matt Ryan. Instead the Dolphins took Henne in the second round of the 2008 draft. Instead of taking a QB who is now in the top dozen QB's in the NFL, Ireland was part of the decision makers who decided to take a QB, (Henne) who was a complete bust as a starter. So the fact the Dolphins didn't have a QB capable of playing well against all the teams in the NFL over the past three years, is as much the fault of Ireland as anyone else who has been a part of this organization since 2008.

    I agree that the QB position is the most important position on an NFL roster. The fact that Ireland took five years to actually come to this realization certainly bothers me. I have no idea if Tannehill will end up being a quality QB or not. I certainly hope so.

    Your suggestion that the Dolphins have talent which is comparable to the other teams in the NFL, just isn't true. It has comparable talent to the other bottom tier teams in the NFL, but it certainly isn't comparable to the better teams in the NFL. Last season the Dolphins easily beat the Raiders. While I think the Dolphins will win this weekend. The fact is that the Raiders played a late game on Monday night, they traveled clear across the country, and they will be playing the game minus some of their best WR's. Yet, the people who make their living setting odds in Vegas, have established the Raiders as the favorite to win the game.

    The Raiders are a severely limited team in regards to talent on their roster. The fact that they come into this game as the favorite certainly shows that many people agree with me that the Dolphins are one of the least talented teams in the NFL. I have never stated they are the least talented team in the NFL. Merely that they are ONE of the least talented and as I pointed out earlier, their 20-29 record over the past three plus years, proves this.
     
  32. fin13

    fin13 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    There is no sure thing in the draft, if Luck was the Fins QB there would be fans on this site calling him a bust after one game.
    I'm glad they are rebuilding whether they talk about or not.
     
  33. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    There isn't a team in the league that isn't untalented at some positions.

    If you're citing something about the Dolphins that's no different from any other team, Jeff Ireland can hardly be responsible for it. It's a league-wide issue that's associated with every GM, not just Jeff Ireland.
     
  34. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    Well I'm not saying this is a Super Bowl team that, when it gets good QB play, is among the most dominant two or three teams in the league. I'm saying it has enough talent on the roster to have a playoff-caliber record when it gets good quarterback play, which makes it no different from any other team in the league that's considered "talented" (i.e., playoff teams). Teams that have enough talent to make the playoffs usually aren't considering firing their GMs.

    That's the part that's unclear. We don't know who was responsible for picking Chad Henne instead of Matt Ryan. If Jeff Ireland was only "associated" with the pick and didn't make it, he's not responsible for it. You can hold him responsible if you need a scapegoat, but that doesn't mean you're going to solve this team's current problems if you fire him. You could be missing the mark entirely.

    We don't have any evidence that Ireland is unaware that the QB position is so strongly associated with winning.

    Well we now have a rookie QB, and the oddsmakers sure know that, so again you're conflating your appraisal of the team's overall talent with its play at QB.
     
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  35. jw3102

    jw3102 season ticket holder

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    I agree, every single team in the NFL has weaknesses in some area of their team. Unfortunately the weaker teams have far more players who are untalented than the better teams in the NFL. The better GM's in the league have teams which have these fewer untalented players, therefore their teams are the ones which end up with winning records at seasons end.

    The GM's who which have filled their teams with the most untalented players, are also the GM's with the teams which end up with a losing record at the end of the season. Ireland is responsible for selecting the talent for the Dolphins. The Dolphins have been a below 500 team for the last three seasons. Therefore Ireland most certainly can be held responsible for the lack of overall talent on the roster.
     
  36. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    Actually it's the teams that have inadequate quarterbacks that are the weaker teams. Go check on it.
     
  37. PSG

    PSG Clear Eyes. Full Hearts.

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    We had Marshall for 5 years?
    Did I take a 3 year nap?
    Did we win a Super Bowl?
     
  38. jw3102

    jw3102 season ticket holder

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    We obviously are not going to agree on the overall talent on the Dolphins roster at this time. You think that this is a playoff quality team, if the QB play was better on a regular basis.

    I think the Dolphins are untalented in the defensive secondary, the right side of the offensive line, and at the WR and TE positions. The 49ers clearly showed last year that a mediocre QB could lead his team to the playoffs, as long as the rest of the team was talented.

    I certainly hope you are right and that this team is as talented as you seem to think it is. It is the coaching staff who decided to go with Tannehill as the starter, not Moore. Therefore I have to assume they feel Tannehill is the better player at this time. The fact that he is a rookie is irrelevant. If he is the best QB on the team and according to you, Moore was a good QB last season. That has to mean that the Dolphins should be a better team right now, then they were last year, when Moore was the starter.
     
  39. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    He's saying the original plan was for 5 years. The plan changed.
     
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  40. jw3102

    jw3102 season ticket holder

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    The 49er's have a very average QB, yet they have one of the best overall teams in the entire NFL. Why? Because they have great talent on defense and a strong OL and a strong running game. The Jets went to the AFC championship games in 2009 and 2010. Yet Mark Sanchez was considered one of the worst QB's in the entire NFL. Perhaps the fact the Jets had a talented overall roster each of these years was the reason for their success.

    Certainly QB's like Brady, Rogers, Brees, and the two Mannings, make any team they play on better. These are the best QB's in the NFL. Every other team in the NFL which does not have one of these QB's on their team need a lot of very talented players on their rosters to be able to compete against the teams quarterbacked by one of these five QB's. I just don't see the talent level on the Dolphins roster at this time to compete against the better teams in the NFL.
     

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