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Daniel Thomas still show no sign of progression.

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Trowa, Sep 23, 2012.

  1. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    The All 22 probably isn't even available yet.

    I just reviewed it. I don't think he scores a TD if he runs to the outside (not fast enough). But I do think he gains a lot (15-20+) more yards.
     
  2. alen1

    alen1 New Member

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    Wednesday AM. Sometimes allowed late Tuesday night.
     
  3. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I'm ok with Thomas gettin 20 carries, and Lamar as his backup for a couple a weeks..let's see what we really got...with Thomas's recent ball security issues I do have to to start looking at him as whether he stays or goes at the end of the year, but not til the end of the year though..He's one of Ireland's picks so the scrutiny goes up on the player..
     
  4. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    That's what I've found but I haven't seen them lay the timeline out officially.
     
  5. alen1

    alen1 New Member

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    Noon is the word. But its always earlier.
     
  6. BigDogsHunt

    BigDogsHunt Enough talk...prove it!

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    The all-22 I also want to see, cause it seemed clear as day off TV feed was the drive where we did settle for FG to go up 10-0. We called a soft rollout to the right in the Redzone, and sent Bess across the formation and he was wide open once he broke through traffic and lost Revis who collided with safety, but Tannehill never looked for him. It was a no doubt easier TD (but a throw back across the field) but its been done, and would think it had to be a primary read...but Tannehill didnt see him or follow him. Wide open though. Settled for FG.
     
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  7. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Possible. I'll take a look on All 22. I can think of a roll out left where we had a guy break uncovered deep to the same side Tannehill was rolling out, but I don't think Ryan saw him.

    I hate to criticize him for things like this because he already sees way more things and way more quickly than I would have imagined especially for a rookie, but there are going to be instances he misses things like this. Just like there were a TON of instances last year where Moore just didn't see things that were happening on the field.
     
  8. Sethdaddy8

    Sethdaddy8 Well-Known Member

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    Thomas ran the best he could. He was aggressive. But Millers vision seems far superior. And it nets him results.



    Sent from my iPhone
     
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  9. byroan

    byroan Giggity Staff Member Administrator Luxury Box

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    If he was caught it would have been from behind. I don't know who it was, but he had a blocker out front.
     
  10. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I don't think you're seeing the safeties that had the deep angle on him to prevent him getting in the end zone. They're both faster than him.
     
  11. Pandarilla

    Pandarilla Purist Emeritus

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    Whenever Thomas bounces it to the outside, he literally bounces off a guard or tackle and then runs to the outside. FML get Miller in there if not just for the sake of the offensive line.
     
  12. thisperishedmin

    thisperishedmin Well-Known Member

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    Saw that play in the RZ as well, but I couldnt personally blame Tanny for that play. Across the field while he was on the run - hard to blame a guy for missing it.
     
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  13. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    yeah I saw that to, but don't know if he could of pulled the trigger from that position, wait for the Ck22
     
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  14. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Is that what it was like? This is why I can't really comment on a play unless I see it. I tend to be a lot more sensitive to instances where fans want a guy to throw back across the middle on the run than most. If it's how you say then I don't blame him either.

    But there was a play rolling left where a guy (on the same side) uncovered vertically. It was a shame.
     
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  15. BigDogsHunt

    BigDogsHunt Enough talk...prove it!

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    Let's see the all-22 to decide. To me, Tannehill only started to run without being flushed or necessary to roll harder.....I think a patient QB would have watched the flow and waited and had a wide-open Bess. Again, not sure of progressions, but would think Bess would have been a Top 3 at minimum...but just off my memory, etc.

    What I do remember is the time it took to try to find his eventual target to the roll side, and it wasnt a good pass attempt or was the intended target open, meanwhile Bess was and had been open...and it was early enough after the snap, that it would NOT have been a pass on the run if some patience was shown.

    2nd QTR
    3-2-NYJ 3 (8:40) 17-R.Tannehill pass incomplete short right to 82-B.Hartline. NYJ-30-L.Landry was injured during the play.

    Landry ran into Revis which caused his brief injury.
     
  16. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    My problem is that I hadn't really reviewed the play at all even normal view let alone All 22 which isn't available until Wednesday. You don't really need an All 22 to judge this one though. You have the right view of it that it was not a boot action play, but one where Tannehill rolled out in response to a delay blitz from the inside linebacker, picked up by the tailback. Tannehill reacted to the pressure the right way by rolling to his right. Left would have been no good, would have put too much pressure on the back to sustain a block in a disadvantaged situation. Plus the progression was to Tannehill's right. You have to keep in mind that when Bess sneaks out to the back side uncovered, part of it is BECAUSE Tannehill began rolling right. The defense reacts to that. Throwing back across the formation was out of the question for Ryan, IMO...and you could tell even Bess knew it. He wanted to streak back toward where Tannehill was looking but he didn't want to bring his man coverage with him and just clutter up an already cluttered half of the field.

    The reality is that the blitz shut that option down. I don't really blame Tannehill for that. I'll eventually find that roll to the left where someone uncovered and I think I'd kill him for that more.
     
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  17. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    Miller's bad job at pass protection was the reason why he wasn't in.
     
  18. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I'm not saying people are wrong about this but I do think there's a lot of ease with which a lot of people are assuming Miller's pass protection was "bad". I mean he clearly had a miscue against the Raiders that got Tannehill hit, no denying that. But I wonder how many people can actually remember specifics about his blocking and how his blocks were insufficient.

    When Philbin notes Thomas' size and cites it as a reason he was considered a better option in pass blocking, I don't know that that is the commentary on Miller's blocking prowess that people think it is.
     
  19. Fineas

    Fineas Club Member Luxury Box

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    I think the criticisms of Thomas' vision and how hard he runs are largely unjustified. It is the fumbling that bothers me and should keep him on the bench. I'm OK with him otherwise. He's had some very nice runs and he's had some where he may have missed a hole, but that is true of every back.
     
  20. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    I think that is reading more into Philbin's statement. If Miller was as good at pass blocking as Thomas, he would be in.
     
  21. BigDogsHunt

    BigDogsHunt Enough talk...prove it!

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    Boomer made a statement in another thread claiming of the 3 backs, Miller is the best at Pass Protection; found it an interesting perspective.
     
  22. Jagfish

    Jagfish Season Ticket Holder

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    IMO DT gets you what is blocked on the hole the play is designed to go to no more and he is solid pass receiver. Miller is a way better pure runner. Here's hoping they can both develop both are young enough to improve. Off Topic Charles Clay has been the biggest disappointment for me this year, I thought he'd be a bigger factor.
     
  23. Fineas

    Fineas Club Member Luxury Box

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    That's really not true. DT had a few plays yesterday where he made something out of nothing and/or didn't do it based on where the play was supposed to go.

    I also thought Clay would be a bigger factor. I think there is a place for him to make an impact, but we don't seem to be taking advantage of that.
     
  24. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Daniel Thomas displays about as good vision as one would expect from a back that consistently gains 3.5 or 3.6 yards per carry while his fellow tailbacks running behind the same line against the same defenses consistently gain 5.0 to 6.0 yards per carry.
     
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  25. Bumrush

    Bumrush Stable Genius Club Member

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    Daniel Thomas just got OWNED :)

    [​IMG]
     
  26. infiltrateib

    infiltrateib Oh Hi Luxury Box

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    I agree on a lot of what's being said, but one thing that makes me really sad about DT is that move he put on Revis. I mean if Reggie Bush makes that move, we're all freeze-framing it and making it our signature (setting aside the injury, which is obviously unfortunate -- but it doesn't change the way a 6'1" 230lb man stuck his foot in the ground and changed direction on a dime). But the reality is, the guy has displayed really poor vision so far.

    I also think the whole world owes Reggie Bush an apology. Good lord, that kid can run. I did not like him one bit coming out of college (I thought he was one of those guys who could never handle a full load and was 'pretty good' at a lot of things but not 'great' at anything), but he has proven me 100% wrong. He is a stellar player. I think he is also a guy who really benefits -- more than anyone else -- from good blocking. You can still see him get arm-tackled by DTs, but that's not uncommon. When he gets a yard of space, though, the guy is a nighmare to bring down. His vision is also incredible -- he seems to know his top speed and the speed of everyone around him, because he takes great angles and seems to have a sixth sense for when to cut back. RBs like Reggie really benefit from being able to get a clear lane. I think Pouncey and the improved play of John Jerry are big reasons for his success.
     
  27. thisperishedmin

    thisperishedmin Well-Known Member

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    Agree entirely, you explained it right like I remember seeing it. A throw to Bess would have ended up ugly and dangerous. I'd have to watch it again (no DVR) to comment otherwise - maybe if he stops after rolling out or something Bess is an option, but he was just out of the play at that point. My gut reaction watching the play was "AWW **** TANNY YOU MISSED THE EASY TD" - but then I let it sink in that it was basically never an option from where he ended up going.

    As to the Miller blocking comments: I didnt watch too much, but I remember one play that I'm almost positive was Miller where he picked up a delayed blitzer and held him up okay. It wasnt necessarily pretty but it stopped the head of steam and held him up long enough to let Tanny get the ball out without any real issue. In my opinion, thats what you ask of a runner on most plays. It wasnt a terribly deep route to be fair, but he saw the blitz, adjusted, and stopped him. If hes doing that consistently, his better vision running and catching give him the edge for me. I dont expect him to block like a FB or a TE, I expect him to buy the time needed and provide a threat the defense has to account for. After all lets be honest, if Miller is only in when hes on a route or about to get the ball, it becomes far too predictable. He hasn't shown me any other liability in pass pro that REALLY jumped out since the first cries about his blocking started. Maybe I'm missing it, I usually don't pay enough attention to the line and blocking during game, to be fair...
     
  28. Fineas

    Fineas Club Member Luxury Box

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    He averaged around 5 per carry in the first few games last year before he went out with the hamstring problems that plagued him all year, as hamstring problems often do. He had the highest ypa of any back on the team in the preseason. He had 3 carries in the Houston game, so not much to go on there. Against the Jets a fairly large percentage of his carries came when the Jets were keying on the run, either because we were deep in our own territory (i.e., inside our own 10), at the goal line (e.g., the 1 yd TD run) or positioning for a FG while trying to run the clock down.
     
  29. Fineas

    Fineas Club Member Luxury Box

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    Well, obviously not the whole world. Plenty of people saw and recognized his talent (including, apparently, Jeff Ireland). When we traded for him, there was all kinds of complete nonsense about how bad he was, how he was less talented than Danny Woodhead, etc., but there were plenty of people here and elsewhere who had no trouble seeing his obvious talent.
     
  30. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Those hamstring injuries were plaguing him BEFORE those games (hence he missed Week 1) so in effect what you're doing by isolating those games is just data mining.
     
  31. Nappy Roots

    Nappy Roots Well-Known Member

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    His lack of vision is puzzling. As I thought that was his strength coming out. And his first few good games he found little creases and his vision looked good...

    Now it looks like the opposite
     
  32. Fineas

    Fineas Club Member Luxury Box

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    Then we've seen even less of him when not bothered by the hamstring problem. And 100 yards per game on 5 ypc is pretty good for a guy suffering from hamstring problems.
     
  33. Jaj

    Jaj Registered

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    It's not puzzling, it was mentioned earlier. He excels when he can make once cut against a spread out defense using his strength and size to break through safety's and tackles. Remember what those runs looked like? They were Thomas knocking over a safety and getting eight to nine yards. Remember that play yesterday?

    It was a draw, Thomas read the play, cut hard, and stretched the play for a near first.
     
  34. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Except, as I said, you're data mining. You're isolating a small sample size and giving it false significance relative to the larger sample size. Just in case you weren't clear on what I mean by data mining. We use it within the context of my industry, which is very performance and data oriented. People often try and show performance from various small time periods while ignoring the wider performance from the full sample, often choosing spurious reasons for isolating what they consider to be the "significant" data. That's what you're doing with Daniel Thomas' rookie year. That's how he becomes a 5 yard per carry, 100 yard per game player, instead of a 3.5 yard per carry, 45 yard per game player.

    You say that those two games are the only "true" tests for him because they were the only ones healthy. Except clearly, he was healthy for none of them (which you've now admitted), as he had hamstring problems in camp, hamstring problems which kept him out of Week 1, and hamstring problems that kept him out of several other games throughout the season.

    So what is your REAL reason for isolating those two games? If you're being honest with yourself, it's just because they look good statistically.
     
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  35. TiP54

    TiP54 Bad Reputation

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    I was sitting in the EZ (where both kicks were shanked) and for what it's worth, I thought DT initial read inside was good, to avoid the first guy, but he should of immediately turned upfield and outside after that, he gains another 15 - 20 no problem. Does he take it to the house? Doubtfull. Yeremiah I believe on that side of the field. Same Yeremiah who caught
    Jamaal Charles.
     
  36. UCF FINatic

    UCF FINatic The Miami Dolphins select

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    I just saw that while looking at the stats from yesterdays game. Thomas averaged 3.6 yards per carry while Miller averaged 5.3 and Bush averaged 6.1. EVEN sadder than the piss poor 3.6 average is the fact that his long run was 9 yards on 19 carries...

    The stranger decision was the fact that we force feed Thomas the ball 19 times while Miller only touched it 9 times. WTH?
     
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  37. jsizzle

    jsizzle Banned

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    I guess I don't get the whole DT is a fumbler thing. He has 2. One resulted in a concussion and the 2nd was iffy at best. Reggie has 1.
     
  38. Fineas

    Fineas Club Member Luxury Box

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    You caught me. I have been engaged in a nefarious plot to try to make Daniel Thomas look good. :lol:

    I have no particular interest in making Daniel Thomas look good. I pointed out those two games because he looked very good in them. There were no vision problems. He showed that he could be an effective and productive back. He then missed some time due to the hamstring and admittedly struggled thereafter. It may well have been the case that the hamstring was worse after game three than it was before games 2-3. That's what Thomas says. Maybe he's a liar or maybe he is just making excuses, but maybe it's true.

    A hamstring injury for a running back is hardly a "spurious reason" for poor performance. It is typically a very real reason.

    And no, I never said those two games are the only true tests for him. I pointed out that he looked good in those games. That is my REAL reason for pointing them out, as they indicated that he doesn't suck and doesn't have chronic vision problems.
     
  39. Fineas

    Fineas Club Member Luxury Box

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    [Delete duplicate]
     
  40. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    When Miller went the wrong way on that one play, that was about the last we saw of him, and I don't think that was a coincidence. Also, there is the issue that Daniel Thomas provides the better pass protection than Miller.

    We could've very easily had Miller in there, had Tannehill audible to a pass, and had Miller miss an assignment that made Tannehill throw an INT. It was smart not to have him in there IMO.

    Now, if you're up by two touchdowns in the second half, and all you want to do is run, go ahead and bring Miller in.
     

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