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The Official 2012 Boston Red Sox Thread

Discussion in 'Other Sports Forum' started by Ray Finkle, Feb 17, 2012.

  1. finyank13

    finyank13 Reality Check

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    The owners are just weak Fink, weak people.....you cant have a GM AND at the sametime have and overseer...it is just counterproductive.....

    the owners need to cut bait with LL......but they wont for some reason...
     
  2. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle Member

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    I wouldn't call them weak, as they've been very successful since they took the franchise over in 2002. They have had 1 and a half years of poor management, but I don't think that should ignore the previous 8 and a half years.

    I do think for whatever reason they were off their game since last year. I think they gave Lucchino more power than he previously had with Theo because they had a new GM. But I think it was a mistake they gave Luchhino so much power to choose the manager and then seemingly keep Valentine around for the year because if not it would be a negative mark on Lucchino. Just weird.

    I agree you can't have too many cooks in the kitchen, if Cherington or whoever is the GM let them do the job. That's what he's hired for. I will say, outside of the manager still being around I DO think Cherington has earned more trust and power within the organization, especially with the major PUNTO trade.
     
  3. finyank13

    finyank13 Reality Check

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    lol I dont think that has made him a more respected GM sh%t ANYBODY would have taken that trade me and you included....
     
  4. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle Member

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    I think that it was the find he was able to get rid of all of those bad contracts AND get prospects in return, especially in August. I think it was more difficult than you think, hopefully I guess you have to give the Dodgers' FO "credit" too. But seriously his stock rose from that deal.
     
  5. finyank13

    finyank13 Reality Check

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    ...
     
  6. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle Member

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    He played his hard all year while being hurt all year. Much respect for Pedroia, even if some people/fans turned on him because he reportedly hated his manager who everyone hates anyway.

    Let him rest up and be ready for 2013.
     
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  7. BigDogsHunt

    BigDogsHunt Enough talk...prove it!

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    91 and counting...
     
  8. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle Member

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    I don't think anyone would or should be shocked if they have 93 losses after Wednesday. At this rate what's the difference between 91 or 92 or 93 losses. The team they're putting out there is beyond awful but that's what happens when the whole team get hurt.
     
  9. BigDogsHunt

    BigDogsHunt Enough talk...prove it!

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    Sure, but a 5th place finish in the AL East....epic.....and the whole team getting hurt is masking the real issue with the organization, while I think you really know that, you can hold onto it vs admit it if you must. Just like thinking this Top 10 pick really matters - in the upcoming draft.....MLB draft picks are the most volatile of any of the big 4 pro sports.
     
  10. GreenMonster

    GreenMonster New Member

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    Last nights lineup sported 1.5 major league players. Pedro could cut that lineup right now circa 2000'.

    Iglesias can't even hit Rey Ordonez.

    Not even 90' Yankees...epic...
     
  11. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle Member

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    The reason why this team is so bad has to do with the amount of injuries this team had as well as the underperformance of their star players, especially the starting rotation. The Sox had the most players on the DL this year in the history of baseball, if you don't think that has anything to do with the performance of the team on the field, then that's just silly. The team had a total of 4 players from their opening day roster make it to the end of the year without landing on the DL. The Sox used a total of 56 players this year, 13 in the OF alone because of injuries. So yes, go ahead and say the injuries are an excuse. I'm not saying they would have made the playoffs IF everyone was healthy, however IF everyone was healthy I don't think the team is or was a 90 plus loss team.

    Of course there were still problems in the clubhouse with the manager and the players, which is and has been slowly been addressed and I'm confident will continue this offseason. But again the main reason is the players underperformed and got hurt. Did you really honestly think the team they had on paper was a 5th place team, or even a 4th place team? And Baltimore would make the playoffs?

    And having a top 10 pick is important not only to have a chance at getting a better player but also because the pick is now protected, meaning IF the Red Sox choose they can sign a Type A free agent and not lose there 1st round pick, which is a pretty big deal. I completely agree with you that MLB picks are the most violatile in all 4 major sports however probability wise the team with a better draft pick in each round has a better chance at getting the better player. It's no suprise that one of the main reasons why Tampa Bay and Washington got so good so quickly was because of the # of high picks that had in the drafts. So yes having the #10 pick in the draft is a bigger deal than having the #11 pick. And if that means the Sox have to finish in 5th place instead of 4th place, I'm fine with that. And believe it or not think it's actually better that the team hit rock bottom this year because it's a true wake up call for the powers that be. The worst thing that could have happened to this team is that they played .500 ball all year and just missed out on the playoffs by a handful of games and not made any changes what so ever, because they "were close".

    I'm extremely happy that Cherrington made such a bold move in August. The team needed a reset button and were lucky they got to do it all in one giant move, even if it meant sacrificing an already lost reason.

    But please if I can't use the injury and underperformance of the players excuse, please tell me the real reason why this team is so bad. Because I'd love to know.
     
  12. BigDogsHunt

    BigDogsHunt Enough talk...prove it!

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    Your are missing the point....its not the injuries, its the organization which includes the medical staff and treatment and diagnosis and recovery and prevention too.

    I obviously enjoy watching the collapse of the organization - come on its the beaners - and I think bad decision makers are leading the charge at the top....but as a fan I know you have to see hope and see promise, etc.

    We both know what that feels like from a Dolphins standpoint....but you know NE Pats laugh at the FO of the Phins...the same way Yankees fans have been laughing at the decision making of the Sox FO. Cant wait to see who this 10th pick (or whatever the spot is) you grab.

    I do think Phins are closer to solving the product on the field faster than Beantown Baseball is.

    And for that I am loving both aspects of my fandom.
     
  13. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle Member

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    Ah yes it's the organization. Kind of vague there, no?

    We can't put any blame on the players? The team paid Gonzalez over 20 million dollars to hit 16 home runs for them and not draw a walk in August? Or pay Josh Beckett 15 million to put up an ERA over 5? Or Jon Lester to have his worst year of his career? It's a mixture of everything, but the main reason has to lay with the players. They simply either got hurt and/or didn't perform up to expectations.

    The Red Sox never had 1 game all year where their projected starting 9 players: Ellsbury, Pedroia, Crawford, Gonzalez, Ortiz, Saltalamacchia, Ross/Sweeney, Youkilis/Middlebrooks and Aviles played together. Not 1 game the whole year. And you don't want to blame injuries & underperformance to why the team was so bad? Really? Come on.

    I'm not sure how you can blame the medical staff for a broken finger or broken wrist from getting hit by a baseball or having a SS fall on your CFers shoulder and breaking it. Or how your starting LFer needs TJ surgery. Or a concussion, or having your closer break a finger because a hitter runs into him. I could go on and on. But you can say that about EVERY organization in every sport. What about the Yankees with Pineda or Gardner and the possible misdiagnosis there? Or Teixeira with his quads. Sorry but that's a thin argument there, especially after the Sox brought in a brand new medical staff last offseason. Plus I don't care how good your medical staff is players are going to get hurt no matter what.

    Which FO moves are the Yankee fans laughing at besides the Valentine hire? Again isn't there moves even the best teams make that people can laugh at? Can we laugh at the Rangers for signing Roy Oswalt or the Yankees for trading for Pineda? Or the whole Cashman affair with his stalker girlfriend? Or the Yankees screwing up Joba's career? Every team makes poor moves. Heck when the Red Sox won the WS in 2007 people were still killing them for the Gagne move. It's just the nature of sports. I don't see how that's a valid point or arguement either.

    Most of your "points" aren't really valid, it's just for bar talk really for ball busting with friends. Instead of just looking at what's there you're just trying to really reach for stuff. Just like how most people think the Red Sox missed out on the playoffs last year because of beer and chicken but not because they had Tim Wakefield, Andrew Miller, Kyle Weiland and a hurt John Lackey having to start must win games in September.
     
  14. BigDogsHunt

    BigDogsHunt Enough talk...prove it!

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    We can agree to disagree cause right now, Sox are not a well run organization. You want to believe without injuries you would have had a great product on the field in 2012 so be it. Love that thinking from Yanks perspective. hope your FO feels just like you do.

    Yup, that too. Its what makes it all the richer of an experience. :up:
     
  15. BigDogsHunt

    BigDogsHunt Enough talk...prove it!

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    Really the 2000's were unprecedented glory for the Sox franchise, not since the 1910's really.

    4 ALCS and 2 WS titles during the 2003 - 2008 range

    only topped by 4 WS titles during the 1912-1918 range

    But prior to 2003 we all know the absence of any Post Season for Decades plus at a time from this franchise....its quite possible based on the past 3 consecutive non-playoff seasons since the new decade 2010's including this 90+ loss season, it could very well be a return to the depths. Quite realistic really.

    :shifty:
     
  16. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle Member

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    Ummm yes I'm fairly confident that if the Red Sox were able to field their starting line up for even 150 games that they wouldn't have lost 90 plus games and the product on the field would have been much greater than the one we saw last night, for example. Of course the pitching, especially the starters, where the main downfall. So yes while I think the team would have been better in 2012 without the injuries, even factoring in the overperformance, I still don't think the team would have made the playoffs but yes a much better team and perhaps Baltimore might not have even made the playoffs. I think you forget that they pretty much brought back the same team in 2012 as they did in 2011, which won 89 games with a 7-20 September. There was talent there, they simply either got hurt and/or underperformed.
     
  17. BigDogsHunt

    BigDogsHunt Enough talk...prove it!

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    Wait a minute thats what I am saying...not that it wouldnt have lost 90 but rather more to the point, your organization should not be MISSING out on the playoffs 3 straight years.

    But you agree after getting swept out in first round in 2009, you miss out in 2010 completely, then you eat chicken and drink beer in 2011 to miss out again, so you clean house in the FO??? (but did you improve or just change suits?) and you still agree the product and system would have missed on the playoffs this 2012 season....so now you sell off salary and quit 1/2 way through 2012 with this new FO, and realistically you would have to think they miss out on playoffs for 4th straight or 5th straight before they correct the problems within?

    I think it will be longer than 2 years, I will be watching the moves they make and we can discuss, but I see probably 3 more at minimum it could be 10 straight frankly...so thats 5 minimum by you. Come on Boston should not be missing out completely in more than 1/2 decade in the modern money,trade,FA game.

    This isnt 1920s or 1930s where you miss that long any more.
     
  18. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle Member

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    I think the 2012 Sox would have still missed the playoffs if everyone was healthy because their starting pitching was bad. But again we have no way of knowing if that would have been the case. It was just my gut feeling. Going into the year I said the Sox/Yanks/Rays were all neck and neck in terms of talent but the team that stayed the healthest was going to win the AL East. But I agree it's not acceptable for a team like the Red Sox to miss out of the playoffs for 3 straight years no matter what the reason was. Them missing the playoffs once in a while is fine, it's baseball, long season, it happens but 3 years in a row isn't good, especially with their resources.

    I honestly have no clue if they will miss out on the playoffs next year or the year after because I don't know what the roster is going to look like. Nor do I think anyone can say that with 100% certainly or confidence. With the way the new playoff system is why couldn't the 2013 Red Sox make the playoffs? We saw Baltimore and Oakland make it this year, coming out of nowhere to do it. Again though what you're seeing now is not the same team the Sox will field in 2013. There are going to be changes made and until we see what they do how can predicting if they will make the playoffs or not make sense. I couldn't even tell you if I would predict the Nationals, Rangers or Yankees to make the playoffs next year without seeing their projected teams.

    However I think you're going a bit overboard in thinking it might be a minimum of 3 years and possibly 10 years. Again there's really no way to know without seeing what the team will look like but the Sox still have a core group of good players already established at the major league level, they have some high profiled/high regarded prospects in the minors (I realize they are crapshoots too) ready to come up in the next year or so and they have money to spend if need be. All they need to do is plug in a few players, get better lucky and better health and I don't think it would be crazy to think they could be good next year. It's not like this team is suddenly the Pittsburgh Pirates or Seattle Mariners bad. And again if the Baltimore Orioles or Oakland A's can randomly make the playoffs with a lack of overall talent, can't see why it would take the Sox 10 years to reach the playoffs.

    Sure they might not make the playoffs next year or maybe the year after, again who knows, but you could have said that if they kept Gonzalez, Crawford and Beckett instead of trading them. I just think that they have a much better shot now without those 3 guys and the financial limits they created moving forward then if they kept them while they started to head into their decline years.

    I still feel like you're hating on the team no matter what moves they make simply because you don't like the Sox. On one hand you're saying change needed to be made but on the other you're saying it was a mistake they traded Gonzalez/Crawford/Beckett. You can't have it both ways. Or instead why don't you say what moves should have been made/not made.

    Again though all of this is meaningless, it's the games on the field that count, not on paper. The Sox went from WS favorite in 2011 to a 90 plus loss team in 2012. A lot can happen in a year, whether it's good or bad.
     
  19. BigDogsHunt

    BigDogsHunt Enough talk...prove it!

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    See, you are saying exactly what I am saying....and you know its the truth. Where you want to dismiss my perspective is in knowing I am a Yankees fan, and where you want to sugarcoat and dance around the truth is because it hurts you knowing you are a Sox fan.

    We both agree, but it stings you to just call them a bad FO and bad process FO right now.

    Only the future can prove it...but Vegas puts out those projected lines and it wouldnt shock me to see them dismiss Boston the next few seasons...and right now, I am more confident of the next 5 playoffs they will miss out on 3 at minimum. I set the over under at 2.5 and am confident they wont make playoffs the next 2 years...that 3rd year will be interesting to see if I am right. If they do miss out on the next 3 to make it 6 straight why not 10?

    Its a bad decision making organization right now. I look forward to seeing when and where they make their first smart decision to improve the product on the field.
     
  20. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle Member

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    No I dismiss what you're saying because besides from the obvious facts that not making the playoffs isn't good you think you know the reasons why but don't want to put blame on the player's performance and also injuries, that while the injury card sometimes seems like an excuse or cop out is 100% legit in this case and have been a big part of the problem for the Sox in the past 3 years.

    Of course it stings and sucks that the Sox sucked last September and this year but instead of dredding on it I've accepted it and moved on. Which I think the current FO is doing too.

    I don't think the current FO/GM is bad because we have no way of judging them yet. I think the past GM made some poor decisions in the last couple of years which have hurt the team. That's not the same thing in my opinion. Either way, I do believe that the current FO realizes this and have changed and "The Punto Trade" I believe is a sign of that. The problem with your argument that the Sox have a bad FO is the Sox have a new front office and that front office wasn't the one that sign John Lackey and Carl Crawford to big deals, signed Josh Beckett to an extension or traded their two best prospects for Adrian Gonzalez who was a disappointment overall. The one that did, Theo Epstein, also helped the Sox win two World Series championships along the way and has been overall a really good GM. I don't think Theo Epstein is a bad GM, I think at the end of his Red Sox run he made poor decisions that have hurt the team.

    But please provide me with specific examples of the current FO being bad (excluding the Valentine hire which was made by the Team President) or how again the current FO has a bad process in place. We don't even know what their current process is because they haven't made any moves for next year's team yet outside of freeing up salary by dumping guys in the Punto Trade while getting prospects back. Cherington and his staff were handcuffed by the moves Epstein made the past few years, what you saw in 2012 was not Cherington's team since he wasn't allowed to add on any payroll to the team.
     
  21. BigDogsHunt

    BigDogsHunt Enough talk...prove it!

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    Its all in the same bubble...I have never said its not the players....I have instead said what I expect you to see...the same garbage because you have the same garbage calling the shots. The same garbage that brought on Bobby V. Its been their one big decision of additions so far. We can wait for this offseason to see if a ray of hope exists. I wont expect one.

    Yes, I revel in it because its beautiful that the foundation sucks. I would have been more nervous with Theo staying on board and him realizing his mistakes (but this group is as if Theo was retained and never learned about bad decisions based on bad reasoning)....yes this FO got rid of just about everything Theo did poorly in the end, but I see nothing to give you hope they know what Theo did right/lucky to put them into position for their success in 2003 thru 2008. I say lucky, cause we both have discussed that if 2004 did end in that likely sweep by Yanks or just lose one more game of the ALCS they would have BLEW UP that team so 2007 would not have happened. Its a bad organization and set of decision makers it seems based on what they choose to make decisions on.

    You are stuck with your FO which from ownership standpoint I cant understand.....and I equate it to Marlins only in that sadly they are stuck with crappy Owner. I like your future better but not by much. :tongue2:
     
  22. BigDogsHunt

    BigDogsHunt Enough talk...prove it!

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    In the end of this back and forth is me on the side of watching this organization screw the pooch over and over from a sweep out in 2009, to missing the playoffs in 2010, and the most epic regular season collapse in 2011, to over 90 loses in 2012. I can revel in that and confidently take the position that more of the same is in store in the near term.

    You can only take the position of maybe the future is brighter cause we quit on the season for "valid" reasons, we will fire our 2nd Manager in back to back seasons, we will have limited contracts to worry about, but limited FA to help the product on the field, have top pick we think we will use correctly on talent needed, and MAYBE our future will not be more of the same.

    You are hoping for brightness, I am pointing out what you have now is far from returning to what you wish for and most of all, the decisions makers have an uphill battle.
     
  23. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle Member

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    You do realize that Ben Cherington has worked with Theo Epstein since Theo was with the organization in 2002 and has been his assistant GM since 2009, right? And Cherington has been with the Red Sox since 1999. But I love it how if Theo stayed you'd be worried because he would realize his mistakes but the guy working directly with him for the past 3 years would have no clue or wouldn't know how to fix it.

    I guess now that you know a little more background on Cherington you're going to say because he worked with Theo he's now part of the problem, right?

    And if it's the same garbage how can you possibly hate that Cherington shipped some of that garbage out of town already?

    You're really talking out of both sides of your mouth. You want to bash the Sox for not making moves, then want to bash them again for making some. Then you want to bash Theo and the FO for making poor choices but then you say the only one who would make you nervous that he would fix them would be the same guy you're bashing in the first place. I'm getting dizzy just trying to think of your thought process.

    Plus I'm still waiting for you to answer this question:

     
  24. finyank13

    finyank13 Reality Check

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    Heyyyyyyyyyyyyyy I am the only one who is supposed to do that!!! :shifty:
     
  25. BigDogsHunt

    BigDogsHunt Enough talk...prove it!

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    Yes, as I stated "IF" Theo would have learned from his mistakes....

    the results speak for themselves on your decision makers in charge!:wink2:

    We will see what moves get made that you are high on and we can measure those going forward to see how they shake out for you. I am sure you were high on Beckett, AGon, Crawford back in the day. Well, atleast Beckett and the toss in Mike Lowell got you a ring.
     
  26. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle Member

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    Again what would you like the Sox to do? You said it yourself that they missed out on the playoffs the past 3 years. So why not try to change it? The other alternative is go into the 2013 season with almost the exact same team they had in 2011 and 2012.

    It's not hoping for brightness, it's simply the only logical thing the team, any team, could do since the current team they had WASN'T going to do anything in terms of having success on the field.

    And you keep harping on free agency and that because it's a weak class it makes the Sox can't make moves. Just because they got rid of payroll doesn't mean they should or will automatically jump back into the market. They have tons of payroll flexibility so they could be able to take on players via trades too. They have the ability to take on players with larger contracts now if they feel that player will help them. For example,a crazy example, let's say the Tigers want to dump Miguel Cabrera, well if the Sox wanted to now they would be able to do that. Or again they are able to make about Josh Beckett/Mike Lowell deal where they can afford to take on a bigger contract to get a good young player in return. Or they can sit tight and not do anything crazy, just a bunch of smaller moves and take the wait and see approach. The beauty is they have no limitations now, they can do a million different things if they want.

    But just answer the simple question: what do you want the Sox to do if you were a fan or running the team? Stick with their current roster for a 3rd straight year or rebuild? What real choice does the team have?
     
  27. BigDogsHunt

    BigDogsHunt Enough talk...prove it!

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    Not surprised two Red Sox fans cant follow along. :wink2:
     
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  28. finyank13

    finyank13 Reality Check

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    I still have gas and some matches young man......
     
  29. BigDogsHunt

    BigDogsHunt Enough talk...prove it!

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    If I was the owner, I have answered this many times....great, we traded away players that Cherington was learning how to acquire from Theo, and I got rid of Theo last year cause he fell asleep at the switch, and I have a President that foolishly tied himself to Bobby V.

    Fire them all, and I would be on a plane to Oakland and put an open checkbook infront of Billy Beane and tell him anything he wants and anyone he wants with him. Welcome aboard you are President and GM of my franchise.
     
  30. finyank13

    finyank13 Reality Check

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    Love the guy but this is just dumb.....whats the point??
     
  31. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle Member

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    You do realize that Billy Beane owns part of the A's and has no interest leaving right? I mean the Sox already tried to get him back in 2002 but he turned them down to stay with his family in CA. It doesn't sound like your "plan" is very solid.

    Either way I'm tired of going back and forth with you on this. Let's just sit back and wait and see what happens.
     
  32. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle Member

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    I agree. It's nice to see but pointless. But Pedroia said he's playing to make a point and try to change the clubhouse culture going into next year. You have to respect that.
     
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  33. BigDogsHunt

    BigDogsHunt Enough talk...prove it!

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    Agreed!:hi5:
     
  34. finyank13

    finyank13 Reality Check

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    Not if he reinjuries it, or gets wacked and does more damage...again it is stupid....

    everybody knows the intensity level of him and he doesn't have to prove anything...
     
  35. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle Member

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    But on the brightside it helped kill an afternoon right?
     
  36. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle Member

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    Agreed completely. It's a nice message but overall just dumb.
     
  37. finyank13

    finyank13 Reality Check

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    Picture that convo....

    DP "I am playing tonight"
    BV "no you arent you have a broken finger"
    DP "You are getting fired in 2 days, I am effing playing!"
    BV **Walks away to fill out lineup card again, head down**

    :lol:
     
  38. BigDogsHunt

    BigDogsHunt Enough talk...prove it!

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    http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/red-sox/post/_/id/23081/all-fenway-park-team-announced

    LOL...Rich Gedman 3rd greatest catcher in your organization????

    So many things crack me up with this list.
     
  39. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle Member

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  40. BigDogsHunt

    BigDogsHunt Enough talk...prove it!

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    But how much did the fan vote weigh?? Says the team was voted on by fans, historians, front office staff and the club's historical and archival consultants.
     

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