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Hartline's Zona receptions. Follow the White Guy. (images of every catch)

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by ToddPhin, Oct 3, 2012.

  1. alen1

    alen1 New Member

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    It happened on that throw.

    Re: Chris' post - I don't think I'm assuming much. To each their own.
     
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  2. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Notice Reggie B running a drag route WIIIDE open underneath?

    Henne would have hit him with the pass not pushed it down the field, imo this is the difference between the two.
     
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  3. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    There are throws where he delivers the ball a little bit late.

    I don't think it's that many, to be honest with you, nor do I think it's played a significant role in his interceptions. You can literally count down his interceptions and you have two off the tipped pass which I don't think has anything to do with lateness, one on the slant to Legedu which had more to do with how Legedu ran the route and his unwillingness to be physical than it did lateness, the anticipation throw to Hartline where he fell which I put purely on Brian, and then the really poor decision on the scramble against the Jets...which was just a really bad decision. Might have been a little bit late but he consistently makes some weird, funky, brain farty decisions when he's running out of bounds on the scramble. Then there was the overtime throw against the Cardinals where Daniel Thomas picked up the wrong guy in the protection scheme. He threw another would-be interception which Adrian Wilson didn't hang onto, but again I didn't think that was a timing issue.

    Again, they show up, I'm just not seeing them be a factor in his interceptions.

    One example would be a play that was supposed to be a run play and he gave the signal at the line to Bess to check off the run and do a quick little one and a half step slant. You see this happen in Green Bay and in college a lot, one of those deals where you don't really have to audible the entire offense out of a play, you just have to be in communication with one other guy. In this case Tannehill just saw the corner spacing that was being given to Bess, even in man, and he said screw it I'll throw the slant as it's basically a run play. But he was late on the throw and then the ball was off, so it goes incomplete. The key is why he was late on the throw. The outside linebacker spilled out into the passing lane. If this were Week 1, I think Ryan Tannehill just throws that ball anyway and it gets tipped up, maybe even intercepted. Tannehill instead hesitated, pumped the linebacker to get him in the air, and THEN released the ball to Bess. All the things he had going on with the play made the ball off target and the connection didn't pay out, but even so I took it as encouraging, a step in the right direction.
     
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  4. Paul 13

    Paul 13 Chaotic Neutral & Unstable Genius Staff Member

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    Right.. I wonder what the hell is going thru his mind in these situations? It's as if he catches a glimpse of his wife in the stands and loses focus on where he is on the football field.
     
  5. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I don't know but there have been at least two times he's made the decision to throw the ball away as he's heading out of bounds, and it's come way way too late. One of those times it was a blatant intentional grounding and the replacement officials missed it. Both were risky hot potato type decisions that were confusing and that interception he threw in the Jets game was kind of like that only he actually tried to hit his receiver. He just for some reason totally discounted the defensive player that was right next to his receiver poised to break on the football.
     
  6. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    Upgrading Hartline doesn't mean cutting him. It just means bringing in a guy like Wallace, Bowe, or Jennings who bumps him down a notch so that he is our #2 or #3 rather than our primary receiver.
     
  7. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    Given what Hartline is currently doing downfield, I think you may get just as much mileage (for less cost toward the cap) out of a Jabar Gaffney type (a possession receiver) as a #2, with Bess moving to the slot where he can find space in the middle of the field and become that presence in that area.

    We could very well be looking up three or four games from now and seeing Hartline, Gaffney, and Bess doing very well.
     
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  8. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    I agree in principle. While I would love to get a receiver that is better than Hartline next season to play with Hartline, I think it would be easier to try to get two more Hartline type receivers. Then I think the offense would be much better.
     
  9. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    That's not necessarily true.

    For example, I'll take Detroit's first play of the game vs Minnesota.
    1st & 10 on Minne's 24.


    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    Respectfully, see how that works when a defense actually fears a receiver. Compare this to Hartline in a similar situation (on Zona's 20 yard line) where the Cards willingly gave him the catch and basically dare Miami to let him run it in on his own.

    Are you trying to say that Hartline is better at getting off the line than Calvin Johnson?... or is it perhaps b/c whomever was on Hartline was getting no help over the top compared to CJ who gets jammed at the line and then has 1 and sometimes 2 guys on top of him downfield?

    So in this regard, not pressing Hartline could be seen as a lack of respect b/c it seems Zona believed they could simply play off him and dedicate their safeties to doing other stuff, and if they can apply more pressure (which they do), their corners would be in better position to make plays considering the action would most often be in front of them. Granted, that exposes them to a double move, but like CK mentioned, even if it's successful it's not likely he scores b/c he'll typically either get caught from behind or won't able to make a play on a defender who has an angle on him. Not to mention the corners who played off aren't the greatest cover guys in the world, but they had no qualms about playing bump and run with Peterson despite no help over the top.

    Against the type of coverage Calvin is seeing above, Hartline would get shut out (as would most non-great receivers). However, great receivers like Calvin will still produce despite it and earn every yard and TD they get, and in the process, the extra attention they receive is less attention devoted toward other receivers and the ground game. Do you honestly believe Kevin Smith comes in off his couch, wipes away the Chettos, exchanges his pajamas for a football uniform, and proceeds to rush for 140 yards (8.75 avg), 61 receiving yards (15.25 avg), and 3 TDs w/o Calvin Johnson drawing so much attention and helping to keep a defense honest? Would LeSean McCoy see the same high level of success if he didn't have Maclin & Jackson keeping defenses honest much or most of the time?
     
  10. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    I don't dismiss that could happen Shou, and I think you make a good point about it. The only problem with it is it's a bandaid b/c Gaffney isn't a long term solution, nor IMO is he an ideal compliment to Hartline & Bess even if he weren't in his 30's. I don't have a problem with Bess & Hartline being our #2 & #3 if the top receiver on the team compliments them by offering more playmaking ability (on his own merit rather than just by play design), especially down field.
     
  11. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    Am I the only one who thought Jabbar Blinkey looked like he was using drugs (or withdrawing from them) in his interview?
     
  12. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    Well, 2 of those were from 3rd & long for starters, and it's no secret that we like to utilize multiple TEs, a FB who is a threat in the flats, so why would Zona not want to be in zone coverage when that type of personnel is on the field or it's 3rd & long and they're trying to keep everything underneath?
     
  13. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    I don't believe you understand what Arizona is trying to do. They aren't willing giving anything. You're trying to attribute defensive schemes to something that they aren't based on. What they are doing to Johnson isn't any different than they do to most teams in that same exact situation.

    Hartline doesn't get jammed at the line. His technique is too good. Teams used to try it, but not anymore. Thats irregardless of what happens with any other receiver, despite your attempts to make it such. Certainly we didn't need all these histrionics to determine that Brian Hartline is not among the greatest WRs in the history of the sport.
     
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  14. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    Because the receivers are no threat. You'd think man coverage would do the trick.

    Certainly there were more than 2 plays we're discussing though.
     
  15. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    Here is the thing. With Calvin Johnson, the Lions are losers. They have been losers since he was drafted, had a season where they were close to winners, then this year, BAMN, losers.

    Still, no one is comparing Hartline to Calvin Johnson. However having the #1, awesome alpha receiver, doesn't necessarily equal wins. Teams can win with a bunch of #2 receivers like Hartline.

    Miami's problem isn't that Hartline is their best receiver. Miami's problem is Hartline is MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH better than Armstrong and Naanee, two receivers Miami have tried as their #3 receiver.
     
  16. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    I agree that under normal circumstances I wouldn't complain TOO much about it, but when we're a team with a good defense, a 13-0 lead at the half, a rookie QB, a mediocre receiving corps, but one of the league's stronger ground games, then in that scenario 47 passes to 31 runs is complain worthy IMO, especially when the passing game hasn't been the kindest regarding inopportune turnovers.

    IMO that's the kind of game where we do need to be able to run more than pass (and effectively so) to prevent Zona from having 5 possessions in the 4th quarter. Now, if we had to throw it 16 times more than run b/c our ground game is simply terrible, then I'd understand, but we had to throw it 16 more times b/c our passing game isn't very efficient (allowing Zona to take away our run).
     
  17. smahtaz

    smahtaz Pimpin Ain't Easy

    With all of the crossing routes these guys are running I wouldn't be surprised to see a lot more blown coverages and big plays moving forward. I have to admit. I didn't see that coming.
     
  18. Mainge

    Mainge Season Ticket Holder

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    [​IMG]
     
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  19. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    Yes.
     
  20. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    If you check the thread I started on it, you'll see that no one in the league is offering more playmaking ability downfield than Hartline.
     
  21. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    We threw more than passed because Zona overplays the run. Their safeties are in or near the box on most plays, whether their opponent is Miami, Philly, NE, Seattle, or whomever.
     
  22. Vengeful Odin

    Vengeful Odin Norse Mod

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    Hartline is 12 feet tall?
     
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  23. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    That's all relative IMO. We saw Brandon Marshall for 2 years. During that time, how often did we watch defenses put a rookie or backup corner on him half the game with no help over the top, play off him, and say "have at it, Brandon"?

    Great receivers have to work a lot harder for those yards, but they still get them. Hartline had a great game, but he didn't have to work for those yards nearly as hard as receivers like Marshall, Fitz, CJ, Andre Johnson, AJ Green, Wallace, Steve Smith, Cruz & Nicks, DeSean Jackson, Vincent Jackson, Roddy & Julio, Bowe, Harvin, Wayne, and Steve Johnson (b/c he has little receiver help around him).

    ..... and there's another tier of receivers below them who also have to work harder for their yards like Maclin, Boldin & Torrey Smith, Jennings & Nelson, Colston, Brandon Lloyd, Dez & Austin, Santonio Holmes, Decker & Demaryius Thomas, Antonio Brown, Sidney Rice, and Garcon..... and then there's yet another tier of receivers below that with guys like Darius Heyward-Bey, Crabtree, Welker, Amendola, Denarius Moore, Laurent Robinson, Nate Washington, James Jones, Manningham, and Lance Moore ..... and this is where I'd put Hartline, but probably closer to the bottom of this tier. (and this is still leaving out all the young talented guys like Kendall Wright, Blackmon, Jon Baldwin, Alshon Jeffery, Stephen Hill, Randall Cobb, and Greg Little, whom already command as much ore more attention than Hartline).

    On most NFL team's he's unfortunately either a #2 or #3 receiver, and on some he'd be pushed to #4...... and #5 in Green Bay.
     
  24. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    This entire discussion is going in circles now. Ain't nobody gonna change their minds based on another response.
    I guess it is time for a similar thread on Bess. He had his best game ever for yardage.
     
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  25. miamiron

    miamiron There's always next year

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    Here is a photo of all the touch downs Hartline has in the last 30 games

    [​IMG]

    that's it
     
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  26. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    Actually, he did have one the first game of last season..... so it's 1 TD the past 19 games.... which paints him in a completely different picture.

























    :shifty:
     
  27. the 23rd

    the 23rd a.k.a. Rio

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    hartline's white?
     
  28. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    Of course. This entire discussion wouldn't exist if he were OTW.
     
  29. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    You'd think with his rubber-burning 4.3 speed that he isn't..... but it's true... he is pasty.
     

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