Is Brian Hartline a Deep Threat?

you realize that getting behind the secondary doesn't necessarily translate to staying behind them once the ball is in the air considering the closing speed of most NFL DBs compared to Hart's 4.5 speed? (evidenced by either how often he's caught from behind or a throw becomes much closer at his end than it should be)

Many NFL DBs can let Hart get behind them and still have time to recover, and that's one reason why you could see him "behind coverage" but not be thrown to.

 

For a rookie to catch a TD pass by the 5th game isn't unusual.

 

With a pass thrown by a quarterback with quality deep accuracy, that does translate to staying behind a defense. He didn't have that with Henne.

Also, no a defense does not let Hartline intentionally run past them.

 

No it necessarily doesn't. If you're throwing to him as you see him getting open (which is basically what you're talking about), a DB can have more than enough recovery time with a pass that's 40+ yards in the air. Considering Hartline doesn't have great deep speed, the QB is limited on how far he can lead him to allow the separation to persist, and since you can't lead him very far, it can give the corner time to recover and even make a play. Hence, it's a risk. A QB's accuracy isn't always enough if a DB has enough time to recover.

 

I didn't say they intentionally let him run past them, but they can let him have a step or 2+ with hopes of baiting the QB to make the throw. Not to mention, why does a DB need to be positioned behind Hartline if most of them have the speed to recover?

 

I disagree with that.

Who say's Hartline doesn't have good deep speed?

 

If they do, a QB with quality deep accuracy and Hartline will burn them. They don't let Hartline have that.

 

The numbers.

4.5 speed isn't necessarily created the same (or any forty time for that matter). You have to take into account how the player reaches his forty time.

If he's a long strider who's slow out of the gate and needs time to gather himself, then he's not going to run a fast 40 time but will be running at a faster pace forty yards down the field than Hartline despite the same 40 time, just as Hartline will be faster out of the gate over the first 10-15 yards b/c of his outstanding 1.50 second ten yard split.

If Hartline had good deep speed he'd be a 4.4 or sub 4.4 guy b/c he'd have to keep pace with his 1.50 ten yard time to prevent from losing speed. That's why many DBs have a chance to recover on him if beaten.

 

Well since its fair to assess he currently represents "our" deep threat, I'm compelled to say yes .

Whether or not he actually poses that threat to every secondary is another matter.

 

Since we're making comparisons to Jerry Rice,

Jerry might've run a similar forty time, but on the field and with the pads on he was still gathering speed 40 yards downfield to help distance himself or at least prevent a DB from recovering.

It's like comparing a 275 HP turbo-charged rice burner to a 360 HP V-8. Sure they might have a similar 0-60 time, but the rice-burner (Hartline) doesn't have the power to pull away like the V-8 that gathers itself and is geared for the top end.

 

While that is true, I don't think that means he has bad deep speed. He slows down but still has enough deep speed to be considered a good deep threat. He doesn't need to be a burner like Mike Wallace.

 

Hartline has always been a deep threat. It was just not b/c of his speed. He is a good route runner who can use his moves to get deep and does. Nobody is saying he's a 4.3 guy. But he is a guy who is a threat to get behind single coverage and make the long catch.He has never produced many TDs b/c he hasn't had a QB with good accuracy who's been around long enough to time up with him and b/c he he doesn't tend to keep his feet well after the catch.

 

He has enough early speed to get by defenders occasionally but not enough speed to maintain it. His deep speed is not good. It's average at best which is why he gets caught from behind.

To put it into perspective, if Hartline ran a 1.60 ten yard split like some of the long-striding "gatherers" do, he'd run a 4.62 forty.

• Brian Hartline runs 10 yards in 1.50 seconds and 20 yards in 2.61.
• B Marshall reaches 10 yards in 1.60 seconds and 20 yards in 2.70. (at the combine)
• but they both ran a 4.52 forty.

That means something is happening over the final 20 yards for Marshall to actually catch Hartline after Brian's strong start. It's not just about Marshall catching him but it's also about Hartline slowing down.

A. The above is an example of not very good long speed on Hartline's part.
B. It's also an example of how a 4.52 guy can catch Hartline over 40 yards despite Brian having a few yards on him at the 20 yard mark. If a 4.52 guy can catch him, imagine what a 4.3/4.4 guy with good long speed can do over the last 20+ yards with the ball in the air.



Brian's solid on double moves b/c those let him utilize his good acceleration if the defender bites, but even then we've seen him get caught from behind (like the example above).

If he keeps seeing no safety help over the top, then we should be able to continue completing 'em, but it's more about timing and precision which makes it a little riskier than a guy like Wallace blowing by coverage and staying behind them as long as the throw doesn't slow him up. Plus the double moves take a hair longer to develop, and sometimes that hair is the difference between a sack and completion.

 

In 2010 he had a 96 passer rating when blitzed. Plays under pressure, he was 49 passer rating.
In 2009 he was a 68 when blitzed and was a 37 for plays under pressure.
In 2011, he was a 77 and a 75 respectively.

 

I don't agree that that shows Hartline has bad long speed. Yes, he does slow down after 30 yards or so. But in game time, Hartline has shown necessary deep speed to run by a defender and keep the separation with the ball in the air. The play on Joe Haden is a good example of that. That makes him a legitimate deep threat. He doesn't need the 4.3 40 or a double move to make him a legitimate deep threat.

 

Haden was taking Hartline for granted, and that's the truth. After he realized he needed to pay him more attention, he shut him down, including outplaying (understatement) Hartline on a deep pass in the endzone.


Here, listen to Haden's commentary on Hartline.

[video=youtube;07wpBpElkNg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07wpBpElkNg[/video]


Look, I'm not complaining about Hartline making an occasional play downfield, but there is no way we should be complacent about thinking he's the team's "vertical threat, big play receiver".

 

Who is saying Miami should be complacent?

 

That's a BS answer. Hartline clearly beat him. Had the pass been on target, Hartline would have easily caught the ball for a long gain.

That's a deep threat.

 

A. Adrian Wilson will be 33 in a week, no more a spring chicken.
B. Wilson has bulked up to 230 pounds, rather than the 212 he weighed when he ran a 4.53 fresh out of college.

I can tell you from geometry that when Hartline is crossing the 50, Wilson is on the hashmarks at the 47, which is 18 yards from the sideline. From the 50, Hartline runs 45 yards before Wilson dives and reaches him. That means Wilson runs 48.4 yards, 3.4 more than Hartline, which basically washes out the 3 yard downfield headstart Wilson had. What this says is that Hartline essentially could barely outpace a 230 pound, 33 year old hybrid S/LB.

 

would you agree that passes downfield involve a greater degree of difficulty on the QB's part, and as such they inherently won't be as accurate as throws 20 yards and under?

 

After his big day it seems like many fans are treating him as if he's an answer to our primary receiver problem and has become a bonafide vertical threat with the likes of some of the league's greats.

I'm just not a fan of a vertical game relying solely on play calling, route-running, and great downfield accuracy, and I say that b/c throws won't always be accurate and b/c the DB won't always be far enough out of position to not recover..... and during these times it helps tremendously to have that backyard football aspect to the game where your guy is simply better than the other guy with his physical and/or athletic talent allowing him to still complete the pass or in the very least-- break it up.

 

I'm sorry, but there's a difference between a legitimate deep threat and a guy who can occasionally get deep with no safety help over top.

Look at the 80 yard TD you just posted. It's a deep crossing route and nobody picks him up. Both corners follow Bess. It's severly botched coverage (and not b/c Hartline did something amazing to cause it). He simply ran an uncontested, straight diagonal line across the field and caught a ball that hit him in stride.
Outside of that freebie, his yards per catch are 15.6, 0.3 lower than his career average of 15.9.

 

Nobody is saying Hartline is a burner or that we are set and should not look to add speed. What was stated is that he is a deep threat and objectively that is supported. Even the fastest WRs only get deep occasionally. Hartlines numbers this year and in past years prove that Hartline's occasionally is on par with other deep threats. All the comments about his TDs and everything else is irrelevant. If he gets behind the D and catches the ball as often as other deep threats, he is a deep threat.

 

he is a bonafide vertical threat due to the fact that he is a threat to go vertical.

I am more of a fan of a vertical game that depends on good football rather than just being athletic.

It also seems like you are making an argument that doesn't exist. Mostly because you wrote

Without anyone actually saying that.

And even without his big day Miami's problem isn't primary receiver, it is the lack of receiving options.

 

Exactly, the reality backs it up

 

So outside his 80 yard touchdown catch, his yards per catch is still a good yard per catch for a deep threat.

 

Hmm, he's 1st in 40+ yard catches and 5th in 20+ yard catches, and 1st in overall yardage gained.

 

There goes the neighborhood...

 

Right, and every objective measure we've seen proves that Hartline is a legitimate deep threat.

 

Hartline needs to average just 78 yards per game the rest of the way to break Mark Clayton's single-season franchise record of 1,389 yards.

 

WADR who gives a **** how many yds The Hitman Hartline has in a season? We're still about winning games are we not?